I keep reading about arranger players with excessive libraries of thousands of styles Onboard their KB's, or where ever.....etc, etc,...

Personally I only use about 30 styles for all my work as a pro platyer on stage most are tweaked & edited by myself to suit my tastes,....I can pretty much do any song I need to with these excellent styles,......
Why would anyone need hundreds & hundreds on board?
It just puzzles me?

I have a USER bank with about 80 styles, all of my own assembly, and I have Gig Folders that have styles suited for various types of jobs.

Probably around 200 or so that are in constant use.

I could probably pick about 50 or so if I was to be limited.

The vast storage on today's arrangers make it less needful to use one style for many songs.

Ian

In constant use, I probably use about 200 to 250. Sure, I could get by with far fewer, but I love the variety those extra styles provide.

Gary

It depends on how picky you are, I guess!

If you are content to use the same style for more than say a couple of songs, nothing wrong with that, I suppose, but it sure adds a degree of 'sameness' to much of your repertoire.

Much depends, also on whether the arranger or the singer is the focus. For instrumentalists like Ian, too many songs in the same style has got to get boring. Cover the style up with a lot of playing and singing, maybe not so much. I guess the more YOU play, the less what the arranger does is going to matter.

I've got a bunch of older Roland styles that work well for me, because there's a lot of ROOM in the style to play yourself, and that can vary radically from song to song. So I use them quite a bit. Kicking my own basslines also helps stretch one style into a lot of usefulness.

But I would imagine, were you playing full arranger all the time and not singing, you'd want a lot more.

Donny, what percentage of your show is done in arranger mode, and what are SMF's or MP3's? Those can also go a long way towards letting you get away with fewer styles, wouldn't you say? LOL

NH 100% styles/vocals always,.......
For larger dances 4hrs on average 1/3 styles/vocals, 1/3 Mp3 backing tracks playing on top/vocals, 1/3 Mp3's,.....
but, it varies per gig genre also,.....
I've done 100% styles/vvocals 4 hrs many times also depending ...
I got a box of tools, .....what you do to build & how you build a house is up to you.

FWIW ... 4 hour gig last night with the sax player, I used 3 SMFs : Sweet Caroline, New York NY, Mack the Knife (the Bobby Darin arrangement ... the rest were all KORG styles ...

Donnie, great topic.

I know that you guys who perform night after night get comfortable with probably less than 100 good styles, all designed to support your well rshearsed repertoire of popular songs in several genres. You've probably a dozen ways to access them in configurations (arrangements) that fit certain type songs your audience often requests. Each audience is different and you must be able to configure your musical gig to satisfy their unique needs.

Some songs are seemingly ageless and are requested again and again across the spectrum of audiences. Lyrics for the songs you don't practice enough to be confident about must also be pre-set in your specific keyboard or tablet/laptop setup for quick recall and ease of access.

As a songwriter, I constantly search through my collection of styles to see how I can tweak them to keep my songs from all sounding alike. In certain genres, it's good to have a recognizeable backing sound... sorta like a trademark performing style. In other genres, all bets are off an I must "wing it" to discover what sounds best. Multi-pads enhance many of my songs to a degree I never expected, mostly due to my lack of playing ability.

Quick access is not one of my needs but cataloging the setup and instruments plus their individual volumes along with companion multi-pads are crucial to me.

Advancing from the PSR-2000 to the PSR-S910 was a leap that sounds so much more authentic. The available choir-based vocal "instruments" are light years ahead of what was previously available for the 2000.

The big difference is that my songs are usually recorded and never performed again (unless I determine a different style sounds much better... or decide to move it into a different genre... often retaining the original version.) I can't own too many good multi-pads or "voices"/instruments in "today" sounding styles. In songwriting, the need to sound "retro" is often also important. Very few "concrete" rules apply to songswriters as opposed to gig artists.

We are so alike in so many ways... and so different in so many other ways. Thank Heaven for Arranger Keyboards.

My songs must be cataloged, documented regarding precise set-ups, copyrighted and then, if worthy, registered with ASCAP so I can more easily be plugged into the money stream. I don't perform except to an "audience of one"... ME! If I had to appear on stage, I'd probably keel over or fade into the woodwork. I'm very much like a fisherman, attempting to keep as much bait in the water as possible, hoping to land the big one... a well known singer who has a following willing to buy just about anything he or she records.

One thing is for certain, I admire what you gigging artists do very much. It takes a special person to master the art of satisfying a crowd's differing musical tastes. Kudos to you all.

Dave Rice

I think the important aspect of a style is how much, I like to say, "punctuation" it can give to my instrument's musical grammar.

Great styles break up a tune just like commas, semi-colons, quotation marks, question marks, and a good old exclamation point every so often in a written sentence does....wonders!

Much the same with my music. Tunes that have a sameness about them throughout tend to be boring, and I must be very careful with where to put fills (commas), Main Variation changes (semi-colons), and, that good old stop/fill (exclamation point!)

Using the right introduction is just as important in my music as in my social life...remember the old saying, "You never have a second chance to make a first impression."

I generally program my styles to have phrases that actually phrase, and introductions that allow me to play over the top, so I can use a well programmed, interesting style, for more than one tune in a set.

We all know what its like to read a post
with no punctuation capitals or other grammatical
necessities as it gets pretty boring and tedious
to read sentence after sentence word after word
with no space between sentences...see what I mean?

So I generally try to make my styles give my music some space and breathing room...a certain...um...style.

Thank you...thank you very much!

Ian

I use my arranger for recording, and I'd like to think that my audience is going to listen to my recordings repeatedly, so the more varied and vast my style collection, the better. I try to never use the same style in more than one recording.

To that end, I just purchased Band In A Box 2014 to try and vary my recordings a bit. I'm quite pleased with my first attempt at using it in the studio. The Real Tracks audio clips are pretty cool, and because the software knows in advance what chord changes are coming, I find the bass lines are more "human" than what the arranger can do. Of course none of this is useful for live performance, but still fairly impressive technology, I think.

It's really quick to sketch out a tune and print a lead sheet too.

I'm considering getting Band In A Box if a certain opportunity presents itself in late summer or early fall.

I still remember using the the first, or at least very early, versions of the program at the Music World store in Newfoundland many years ago...it would still be quite useful today, and it only had drums, bass, guitar piano and strings and we used a then new Roland Sound Canvas with it. Even back then the bass lines had that human quality to them.

Compared to these latest versions, the version we had would be like comparing a Model T to a new Lexus.

I was very impressed with the specs and demos of the 2014 version.

You must be having a great time with it, Dan. I think the lead sheet feature is super cool.


Ian

The big advantage BIAB has over arrangers is, it KNOWS what the next chord is going to be (you already told it!). This allows it to walk basslines from somewhere TO somewhere at times, something no arranger can, because it never knows what the NEXT chord is until you play it, by when it's too late!

The thing about writing is, by its very nature, its SUPPOSED to be 'original'. The more generic a backing you put around it, the less 'original' the song sounds. On the whole, when working with arrangers for songwriting and demo purposes, I tend to use the arranger 'capture' as only a jumping off point. I'll erase everything I can play better than it (at least I know the next chord!), and edit as much variety into the Parts I can't play better than it (usually the drums and guitar parts).

But it's great to have a fully fleshed starting point. That 'build it up one Part at a time' way you usually do with workstations isn't nearly as quick, and often the results take longer because you have no guide track to help you with 'feel' and groove.

Anyhoo... back on topic. On the whole, I can get away with just a couple of styles if I rarely play that genre. But stuff I do a LOT, I like to have as many as possible. But with one caveat. They got to ALL be of pretty much the same quality, or you tend to only use the best one or two. I'd rather do that than have some naff style just for variety, though.

Problem is, most arrangers are chock a block full of oldies styles I wouldn't use in a million years, and painfully short on much that is contemporary and pop, especially non-electronic pop. I would happily trade every last cha-cha and cumbia for a few more 'Live band' styles, alternative rock/pop, and you can never have enough funk and New Orleans grooves!

All in all, if I were an oldies fan, I'd be in heaven... but I'm in 'hip' style hell!

Sad thin BiAB still does not support realtime chordchanges...

But i would love to see arrangerrs do some BiAb stuff when there is a set order of chords, like when using a chord arranger ( korg or Roland).

Another thing I Love to do is this, (not for the lazy ) ....when I need that certain style with that certain variation, groove, etc, either its a walking bass-line I need, or horn stabs, or a particular progression thru the variations, then I find one that works but it sounds like crap because of conversion or whatever,....Now the fun begins when I can take that so so style from any manufacturer, third party etc,..with the good foundation that I need and totally rework it thru style creator, Pc programs, etc, sound wise, fx, or even rerecord a certain part of it, or add a proprietary inro or ending, fill to it,.....might take an hour or so but in the end get it to sound totally amazing for my needs, save it and use it on stage...
I've done this many times with much success..

I am indeed having a blast with it, Ian, and I've only just begun to explore its capabilities. My first Band In A Box experience was with an early Windows (or maybe even DOS, I can't recall) version and my old Roland CM32L module. Things have come a long way with modern VST technology and audio tracks and more processor horsepower.

One feature I found particularly useful is the ability to drag tracks directly from Band In A Box into my DAW package. This feature alone is worth the price to me, and it does so much more, too.

Great thread.
Back when I first started doing one-man-band stuff, before arrangers, organs had only a handful of styles. A 4/4, a 3/4 a March, a Bossanova, later a 6/8. Early arrangers weren't a lot better. I used an external drum machine for the first few generations of arrangers, up to Technics KN2000.
It was fairly easy to build a basic style to sync with the drum machine. All you needed was bass line, guitar strum and piano chord. Quantize feature made it easier.
I did ALL the songs with maybe six or eight styles.
Thank goodness the technology is way better now. I still tend to use my favorite generic styles a lot, but they still have not much more than bass lines, guitar strums, piano, a little organ or vocal bed on some. I don't like sustained strings on the style or left hand, as a rule.
The occasional Song style is nice, but as mentioned, pretty much limited to the one song.
It is great that, for example, for a 6/8 or 12/8 ballad, we now have a half dozen or more at least to choose from on all the arrangers. Same with all the style categories.
I tend to do a lot of comping, especially guitars, so have to be aware to leave room in the style for that.
Still agree with Diki that it would be nice to be able to automatically mute the sound in the style that is identical to the one with which you are playing the lead line.
The BK9 does have that great Mute button, that will allow you to choose which style parts you want to shut off when you press the button, or control switch.
With the mega memory we have available now, it's easy to create, save and easily access several versions of the same style, if you need more variety than the four style variations allow.
This is the kind of thing we should discuss more, operational features, etc., that are common to all arrangers.

Don't forget, the D-Beam can also do a Bass and drums only mute...

So, if you need that, use the D-Beam. At the same time, you can cherry pick which ACC tracks you mute with the Track Mute button.

So you can have a choice of THREE different levels... Full style, maybe strip it down to Bass/Drums and rhythm instruments only, and just Bass and Drums.

Some Variation 4's get quite busy, these days, and it is cool to be able to mute out SOME of the extra stuff (maybe the brass or strings), but still have a high level of intensity for the rhythm section. Having TWO independent places you can mute stuff opens your possibilities quite a bit.

On the PA900 I can set an Assign Button to various things ... I have my 3 set at Mute Acc 1-5, Mic talk (which drops down the volume on the style, but not the mic) and Ritardando ... in the absence of 'auto mute accomp x when RH voice is the same instrument' how much more costly would it be to have enough assign buttons for each of the accomp parts ... right now, when I want to change in 'real time', I mute 1-5 and then go in and generally um-mute the guitar part, especially if it is just a guitar strum ...

Tony, that's exactly what the i30 had - a dedicated mute button at the bottom of each slider. They dropped the idea when the Pa1X was introduced, for whatever reason.

all this muting emphasizes my original post that with all these variations and muting options, part rerecording features, the combinations are endless....so I ask again WHY do you need all these styles onboard..
lets be real 50 should be TOPS to cover almost any song....

Because we can. What other reason do you need?

I remember the early days of getting by on 16 or 32 on-board, un-editable styles, and not all those styles were useful to me.

I find the subtle differences I program in similar styles (8 beats, for example) are important in recording. Live playing is more forgiving, in my experience.

I look at it this way...I suffered too many years with not enough styles, and I have no intention being restricted only to styles the factory programmers think are suitable.

I'm generally editing styles everyday. Sometimes I'm doing completely new ones, and other times, I'm fine tuning existing styles.

The arranger is my "back-up band" so I want all my virtual players in top form and not leaving out any important details.

Ian