The main difference between OMB Arranger play and Live Band play.....OR, why it makes little difference what type of Arranger you play (professionally).

The reason is simple. With Live bands, people come to see the BAND PLAY; with Arranger-based OMB's, people come to see (and hear) the SINGER SING. If the singer is really, really good, it matters little whether the OMB/singer is using a T5 or a PSR3000 or a PA80 or an Audya (no matter how 'Awesome' or whether or not it's been upgraded with AJsonic ), to accompany themselves, assuming the same level of playing ability on each. Don't believe me? See how many OMB/Arranger players do an instrumental set or, in most cases, even ONE instrumental during an entire gig. The exception, of course, being Ian, the lone Arranger player in all of North America who plays all-instrumental Arranger gigs.

This isn't a knock on Arrangers, just a sober look at the the emphasis we place on possibly the wrong part of a OMB performance (and possibly at great cost). Of couse, what I'm saying here only pertains to 'professionals'. Amateurs and home players don't need to justify anything.

We all love players like Marco Parisi (sp) but how many 'Marco's do we have here. But guys like that are MUSICIANS and sound equally impressive on a workstation (or piano, or synth, or organ). What we're wow'ed by is not the arranger but their playing.

From what I've seen and heard here, the NH gigs are not very musically demanding and could be easily accomplished with the most basic and/or prior-generation Arranger KB's. The art seems to be in the 'entertainment' portion of the performances, ala singing and audience participation. That's probably as it should be for that type of venue.

So, Pro's, you may want to think twice before shelling out 5k for that new 'latest/greatest'.

chas

Sounds like an arranger player slam to me, but anyway & dont see the sense of this post....Most of us OMB have played with bands for many many years previously,......I myself 25+ years,..... in todays world you gotta do what you gotta do simple as that to survive and make a living nothing wrong with that, running a band is a big task & headaches beyond enjoyment, in today's world, .......there's plenty of pie for everyone.

VIVA ARRANGERS!!

Its easier to get gigs as an OMB?

In many areas it is... an OMB sometimes makes half the money a five man band has to split on a gig..

I don't see this as a slam on arrangers at all. All Chas is saying is that it is the live performance that matters more to the audience than the equipment being used. Sure it is nice to have the latest and greatest but it really doesn't matter much to the audience. A great performer will still put on a good show with outdated gear. This is the same whether it is an OMB with an older model arranger or a band where the guitar player uses a budget Squier guitar. It is all about the performance.

I think it was the title that may have misled some. It should probaby have been Chas's alternate "OR, why it makes little difference what type of Arranger you play (professionally)" but that became obvious when reading it.

Thanks, Nigel. Everyone naturally expects me to back almost anything Chas says. And I do, because, from politics to religion to music to human rights, we're sort of "joined at the hip".

But here, he's right! I'm mostly using a 1993 MS-60 on my arranger gigs, and don't get any complaints. That's because I need a good lead sound, a good bass line and the rest is up to me.

Chas is simply trying to analyze a pretty interesting part of what we (some of us) do for a living, or at least, part of a living.

There's an old guy in Louisville who uses a drum machine and plays an M-1, with an old 145.

Blows me away on my newer, better gear.

It's what's between the ears and how efficiently and diligently you can transfer that message to your hands and coax it out of that speaker that makes the difference.

And when that happens, regardless of the equipment, "It's a BEAUTIFUL Thing, man!"


Russ

I fully agree ... this was the first year since 2000 that I played my usual Christmas gigs without my technics kn6000 ... I got plenty of compliments, but not one person asked if I had a new keyboard ...

And for the record, chas, depending upon the venue, - restaurant, dinner party, etc. I often play instrumentals for most of the first set - bossas, light swing, etc. from the "Real Book", and will often mix in an instrumental during the night ... I am NOT a jazz player, but I do play some 'jazz' tunes ...

It's pretty obvious by your response that you've missed the whole gist of the post, which has nothing to do with anything in your response. Maybe you want to do a re-read. As far as 'the sense of this post', I could point to about 500 of yours and ask the same question. In any case, the gist of it is, 'can a PROFESSIONAL OMB ARRANGER PLAYER REALLY JUSTIFY CONSTANTLY UPGRADING TOTL ARR. KB'S every time a new model comes out? ie. does it enhance his performance enough to significantly boost his bottom line? Just looking for opinions (based on your experience), that's all. No need to trot out your 'why are you so angry' line, Donny.

chas

Good points. And I totally agree about the value of the vocals and the fact that just about any arranger from the past 12 years would work. But I actually do a few instrumentals every night and they are generally well received.
Most popular, bar none, is Last Date.
I have done a lot of instrumental Christmas songs.
Others I do from time to time are Watermelon Man, San Antonio Rose (Floyd Kramer version}, Sleepwalk, Honky-Tonk, Take Five, Unchained Melody (sax lead), In The Mood, Chattanooga Choo-Choo, Green Onions, Tequila, Sentimental Journey, Yakity Sax, Cherry Pink and Apple Blossom White, Theme from Dr. Zhivago, Raunchy, Wonderland By Night, Just A Closer Walk, When the Saints medley, Night Train, Rebel Rouser, Wipeout! Red River Rock, The Happy Organ, Never On Sunday, Malaquena. I know I'm forgetting some, but I'm really old.
Also Air Force song, Anchors Aweigh, Caissons, Marine's Hymn, for military occasions.
Several college songs such as Boomer Sooner, Tiger Rag, Rocky Top, depending on what team is in town.
By the way, do you know what is the one most requested song of all time for me? Happy Birthday. I do it 3 to 8 times per night. Lots of people come for special occasions.
Interesting thread, Chas!

Oh by the way, I was lying about doing Take Five and Malaquena. Can't do either of them justice for sure.

I bought my Tyros4 mainly for ME. I played arranger gigs mostly using PSR-3000/S900/S910 and I doubt if that many in the audience would know the difference...maybe another keyboard player?

But, I like the way the T4 sounds, the feel of the keys, the flexibility of the style assembly, so when I saw the opportunity to get one just before retiring, I took it.

After many years of various bar bands and show groups, I decided to go solo, and I played instrumental gigs at a high end restaurant for nearly 12 years....every weekend, except for the few I took off to do Yamaha work. I also played New Years as well at the same place.

My first attempt at arranger gigs was using a Yamaha CLP-300 digital piano, with a small PSS-680 sat on top that I used for drums and some accompaniment, but I mostly played left hand bass.

Even earlier, I had used a special model Electone C-605 for awhile...it was "portable" only in that it came apart, but it was still very heavy.

Today's arrangers are such a treat.

The longest run any one else had there before me, and, two were arranger players, was three weekends. I also got many other gigs because of the exposure at the restaurant.

When I chose to stop playing, the owner told me I was missed, and that many had asked about me, so that made me feel pretty good. I still make CDs for people that used to be regulars.

I worked really hard at my music, and it paid off. Being able to read music very well, really helped me, as I had a huge repertoire of tunes of all genres, from Country to Jazz and Swing. I tried to make my arrangements musically interesting, but I also realized that my music was basically "background" so I also worked hard at keeping my volumes at a decent level, and to also stay away from using instrument sounds that were too harsh or raw sounding.

The owners did not want vocals, as it interfered with people talking during their meals.

I also made sure I knew the favorite tunes of the regulars. If I didn't know a requested tune, I made sure I had it by the next gig.

Like DonM, I believe my most requested tune was Last Date, and closely followed in popularity by A Whiter Shade Of Pale and As Time Goes By.

I'm sure if I was a vocalist (or I used one) it would have probably got me more outside work, but I was happy in my little niche until I was forced to leave to look after a sick relative.

Between those steady gigs, and my work with Yamaha, I did pretty good financially, and I know I made far more money on my two gig nights than most sidemen in bands were getting per weekend.

My use of the arranger enhanced my Yamaha work, and a lot of my demo tunes were also useful at the restaurant.

The arranger was just another musical tool that I managed to use successfully...nothing more.

I still enjoy playing my Tyros4 every day, and I have a few plans in the works for next year, that will involve using the Tyros4.

I still do jam sessions a few times a month with some buddies and play in a band-like situation, but it's only for our own personal enjoyment.

I also like being retired...but that's a different topic.

Ian

First of all, I applaud both Don and Tony for including instrumentals in their set lists. Obviously, both of you have the necessary playing skills to do that. I was thinking more of the average NH gig, which, as far as I can ascertain, is mostly vocal with accompaniment. Both of you play a lot of CC's and Bar/Restaurant type gigs, and all-vocal sets would start to wear thin no matter how good you were.

My reason for posting this was a reaction to the mad excitement and rush to upgrade every time a new model arrives on the scene. And yes, my post was exclusively directed at 'Pro's' as they are usually the ones that need to justify such a move financially. I personally own four (4) arrangers and other than to piss off my wife, can't justify any of them. But then again, I'm not a OMB; don't have the skill set, so couldn't even if I wanted to. Anyhoo......

chas

chas ... a friend of mine who is an excellent sax player knew that he was going to lose his 9 - 5 due to 'downsizing' at the 'ripe old age' of 52 years ... fortunately, he had a year to prepare ... he did all the usual stuff to try to get another job but he was in a 'young persons' profession - computer graphics design ... he decided to augment his free lance graphics income by playing gigs, so along with some sax work with bands etc. he began studying piano really earnestly and got to the point where he could do solo gigs on piano or arranger at restaurants, CCs etc. AND he also did a fair amount of NH gigs as well ... he's NOT a vocalist, so I asked him how playing solo instrumentals was working at NHs and he said it was fine ... and apparently it was, because he did that for quite a while ...
While WE (those of us on SZ who play them quite a bit) each have our own 'shtick'/delivery/style/whatever, the bottom line for NHs is that these people want to be entertained, and if you are entertaining as a solo instrumentalist, you will get work also ...

Now as for the 'hysteria' over a new TOTL KB, I put that in the same place I put the hysteria over a new iPhone - "It's NEW, so it MUST be BETTER, so I HAVE TO have it" ...

BTW ... I have no idea as to why you don't think you have the skill set to play an arranger ?!?

No, no Tony. I can play the arranger just fine (even enjoy it occasionally; just not nearly as much as playing my Organ (KeyB Duo Mk111). I meant that I can't (don't) sing, am extremely mike shy, and just don't have that 'entertainer' type personality. For those that do, I think it's every bit as much of a talent (maybe more) than playing an instrument.

chas

I agree to some extent, Chas. For me, and many of the entertainers I know, both those doing the NH circuit and those doing the clubs, without good, high-quality vocals you're essentially out of business. When Sinatra performed with the Count Basie Band, the audiences didn't come to watch the band play - they came to hear Sinatra sing. That said, there are orchestras that I love to watch perform, Glenn Miller Orchestra, Dorsey Brothers Band, U.S. Navy Band, U.S. Army Band, they're incredible musicians as well as entertainers. The venues these guys play are sold out six months in advance and the tickets are not cheap.

Audiences worldwide want to be entertained, and a great vocalist is usually a great entertainer as well. Sammy Davis Jr., Rascal Flats, Perry Como, Bing Crosby, Jimmy Buffett, Karen Carpenter, Sinatra, Elvis, The Beatles, they were and some still are, great entertainers and singers. Most people could care less about the band that backs them - vocals have always ruled. Great musicians can be found throughout the world, but great singers who are also entertainers are a rare commodity indeed. So, I contend that if you are a good to excellent vocalist you can make a good living in the OMB business, even if you cannot play worth a damned - I should know!

Now, as you know, Chas, I waited more than a decade to upgrade from my PSR-3000, an instrument that served me very well during that period. I never considered upgrading with the S900, S-910 or newer Tyros series became available, simply because I didn't consider them to be beneficial to what I do. I did upgrade a few months ago to the S-950 because it had some outstanding, new features that would prove beneficial, and wouldn't hinder my performances or increase dead time between songs. And, it sounds one Hell of a lot better than the 3000. And, there have been several occasions where audience members asked if I had a new keyboard. So, I guess they do actually notice those backing sounds, but as was stated above, no one ever comes up to you and says they loved the way you played a particular song on the keyboard, but they frequently comment about the vocal performances. At least that has been my experience over the years, even when I played a guitar as a solo player/singer in a smoke-filled country bar.

I only wish I were 50 years younger, had the knowledge I currently enjoy, and had just half the playing skills of Captain Russ, Chas, DonM, Uncle Dave, and some of our members from across the ponds. Who knows, if this were the case, I might have been successful enough to buy a bigger boat. But alas, I live with the cards I've been dealt, work nearly every day in a trade that many people only dream of.

Cheers,

Gary

Gary ... I find it interesting that my experience has been the opposite of yours, in that no one this year has asked if I got a new KB (maybe the KORG doesn't sound better or different than my technics - although I KNOW it sounds different, and some sounds, like the sax, are not as good), and I have on a number of occasions been complimented on an instrumental ...

Tony, I don't have your playing skills, therefore, it's my vocals that I rely on primarily. Yeah, I play some instrumentals, Last Date, polka medley, and several others, and I do them pretty darned well, but my vocals are my strong point. I think the audiences noticed the new sounds of the S-950 when I performed many of the songs that I previously performed on the 3000 - they really sounded different because of the improved instrument sounds.

Gary

People I played for, or with, on a regular basis were more likely to notice a change in my keyboard...also other keyboard players.

I think a lot would depend on what you used as your primary solo instrument on the arranger...for quite some time now, the main piano sound on all arrangers has been excellent, so if you played mostly piano licks behind your vocals or used it mainly on instrumentals, I doubt if someone would notice a change.

However, guitar and wind sounds only became dramatically better in the last few years, so a new keyboard may be more noticeable if you tend to use those sounds as well.

Ian

I also agree with Chas...As for so called "upgrading"...it isn't always the upgrade we think we are getting...Personally when I have a tool that does what I want and need it to do.....I don't shop for another..

Another point...I cringe at being labeled an "arranger player"...not even close...I happen to use an arranger keyboard as my choice of tools...It happens to be the best instrument..second to none for any musician that is open minded to try one..

The same musicians that will get a drum machine, and splitable keyboard for bass and piano....Arranger keyboards do not mean you have to use all the style parts, pads, whistles and alarm clocks...Use what you need...you are still playing music your way...

Well said Fran. You have nailed it on all counts.

And there is no reason arranger functionality couldn't be added to all workstation keyboards. It requires no special technology at all, it is only the onboard software. And workstations have plenty of buttons onboard that could be used for arranger control. It is simply economics that manufacturers keep arrangers and workstations separate to create 2 distinct markets. Though I am sure if Yamaha added Tyros functionailty to the Motif for every Tyros sale they lost they would gain another Motif sale. Plus it would add a lot of market appeal to the Motif as well. I guess the only difference is simply the labelling of the buttons. But that could even be overcome with multifunction labelling or clear overlays. Just a thought anyway.

Hey that is not to say that upgrading can be a good thing. Of course better technology is always a plus. But it really isn't always that important to your performance. While it is beneficial to you as a performer your audience often will never notice the difference because they are more focused on the performer than the hardware.

Bottom line is, is ANYONE here making a living playing ONLY instrumentals? Sure, it's fine to do a few in your set, or evening, but try playing the whole night like that, see if your crowd drops or swells... (might be embarrassing if it swelled! LOL)

Sure, play something ELSE (guitar, sax, ocarina!) and the audience has something to look at, but play an evening doing the sax solo on the arranger... meh! Boooooorrrrriiiinnnnggggggg.

But, OTOH (you know I use two, don't you?!), let's not forget the most demanding, pickiest person in your audience...

YOU!

Hopefully, you hold your act to higher standards than your audience. And hopefully, you always want to push yourself harder, reach higher, achieve more... And that is the RIGHT reason to go for new gear from time to time. But there's a warning on the label... DON'T do it unless the new gear does something RADICALLY better. Don't waste your money on a few gewgaws and little else. Don't buy into the hype, don't let amazing demonstrators blind you, don't be a 'me too' buyer.

Find something in the feature set that makes you go 'I GOTS to have that! That will make a radical difference, that will allow me to do stuff I've NEVER done before'. And don't do it until you feel you have used at least 90% of the stuff on your OLD arranger. WAY too many ditching old gear for new long before they have mastered the current one, long before they have tried all the stuff that made them want it in the first place.

Let's be honest here... how many of us with a sampler in our arrangers doesn't actually USE IT? How many never touch the style editing? How many have dropped Markers into an SMF? And then rearranged an SMF on the fly?

Use what you have fully before you move on...

Gear ditchers are good. That's how I ended up with my Pa1Xpro that was only three years old, lived its youth in a guy's living roon, and cost me a very reasonable $1500. Best Christmas deal I ever had.

Chas,
I agree with you completely...
That's why all this time the sound and features of my arranger (organ in the 60's - 80's) is so important. I have been in the audience and see what you mean. New years last year we went to a party and a guy played a lower end PSR (not sure which model) ..BUT he was a great singer! so all was enjoyed.

See...for me I don't sing (Everyone is so grateful!) so the entire performance is the arranger and how I play it.
I play more slow ballads, love songs etc....using lots of orchestral stuff, so the sounds have to be super (at least I like it that way).

Many of the previous arrangers I had had issues with a lot of the sounds. I believe most of that is fixed now on Korg and Yamaha arrangers...so I'm ready to jump back in!
Probably T5
Lee