[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wnfYhpNa1NY#t=22[/video]

He was the best but tough to work for. Saw him fire a guy for being a few minutes late and the show didn't even start yet. Terrible stormy night and a sax player missed the band bus. Drives himself from NYC to the concert venue, a Holiday Inn in New Brunswick NJ, ( an hour drive on a good day). Guy comes in soaking wet just as the band is unpacking their instruments and Buddy fires him.
Also saw him do the famous West Side Story arrangement at the Arts Center in NJ. Unbelievable !!! Buddy's band was the opener and then had to back up the headliners, The Supremes. Diana Ross wouldn't go on the next night unless they got a new band to back her up. Buddie's trumpet section was standing and dancing behind her as she sang !! Took some of the spotlight away from the Diva.
Look up the famous "bus tapes" of Buddy chewing out the band. No drum machine could do that.

Definitely someone who would turn the tables on most of us here!

Imagine being fired because YOU weren't perfect! Oh the horror!

But, bottom line, there isn't a single person on this forum with the chops to be on stage with him, anyway (maybe Russ in his day, I don't know). Must be embarrassing to have a drummer be better than US!

I simply hope we can stop this beating up on non-arranger playing musicians. Fact is, if we were any good, we'd be playing with the best, and wouldn't have a word bad to say about them, and would consider ourselves lucky to be playing with them. The fact that some of us only look to how bad the people they used to play with were is a bit fishy, IMO. Particularly in light of just how poor the playing in general here is (with certain notable exceptions), TBH, how poor your fellow band members were says a lot more about YOU than it does about them!

It has been my great honor to have played with some of the best drummers in the business (sessions with Gadd, Purdie, Tony Thompson and many more, back in my NY days), and too many great guitarists and bassists to mention, and at no time will I ever paint an entire instrument as bad or unreliable.

If that's all you could get to play with you, you have my condolences..!

Another legend who's extreme talent overshadowed his short temper, and erratic attitude most of the time.

Would have loved to see him play live.

Ian

That Steve Gadd isn't in there invalidates the entire thing. Not to mention Vinnie Coulaiuta, Billy Cobham, Peter Erskine...

Fluff article, exactly what you'd expect from RS..

What we all did in the past, who we played with years ago is just a memory now, hopefully good ones, I myself certainly had my share of performing with many very good artists years ago on stage also, ......people care about what is happening today. It's a different time and different world of music out there now. Embrace it, create it, be a part of it, and most of all let the music make you happy in side & if your lucky enough share the talent you have to uplift & share it with others so that they may enjoy it also.

I look at it simply this way, Donny...playing with a so called "big name" is not always an indication of how good a player we are, and, for most the most part, it is just a very memorable (and maybe humbling) experience.

I had a friend who always bragged he played with a certain big name guitar player, but it just turned out they were lucky enough the guy was recording in the next studio and was kind enough to play on one of their tunes.

Certainly memorable for him (and his band at the time), but hardly anything one would put at the top of their résumé.

Buddy Rich's talent was prodigious enough to overcome his well known faults...most of the time.

I still wish I could have seen him live, which would've been far more likely than ever being on the same stage with him.

Ian

Whereas, playing with players SO bad, a soulless machine is an acceptable alternative is quite telling..!

Let's put it this way... so far, I have never heard anything that remotely impressed me from those that are the first in line to slam other musicians and claim that playing with an arranger is 'better'. A trend, perhaps? The worse you play, the more you want to blame other players for it?

Big name or no name, if you have had trouble playing with competent musicians, step up YOUR game, don't blame those still willing to play with you...

For me, size of talent is only one facet. The point is that these legends, divas, what have you, don't HAVE to be azzholes, that just makes them nothing in my book. Thankfully, there are plenty of huge talents out there who are truly decent people.

In bands I've had I wouldn't tolerate any jerks and, by the same token, had I been a jerk, I wouldn't have expected to have been tolerated. Maybe the mutual respect we had for each other as people, in addition to the musical talent, was what kept us together all those years.

My arranger is a jerk! But I still play with him...

He never gets the next song right without me telling him, he never even shows up for a gig unless I take him there, and bring him back home. I have to put him up at my expense, and he never sings a song, he won't help set up the PA, he can't even play the chords for a song without me showing him how at least once!

He never makes eye contact with the audience, never schmoozes the management, has never learned a tune and surprised me on the gig with it. He's never gone out and got a booking for me, never sends the agent a Christmas card, and never gives me notice he is going to quit suddenly on me in the middle of a gig!

If he didn't play for free, I'd fire his ass in a flash!

One size never fits all, I suppose. I like using my arranger for it's many benefits, and I like jamming with the guys for a different sort of fun.

For me they provide different ways of enjoying and producing my music, whether for fun or profit.

Unfortunately there are those with huge talent (and equally huge egos) that end up being jerks and divas, and I've been lucky to work with some fine talent that never allowed their success and/or talent to go to their heads (I suppose there must have had to be room for it).

My arranger never played for free...I just paid it's wages for being my gig partner up front when I bought it.

To me, it was worth every bit.

Ian

I did clinics with Buddy Rich and Louis Bellson in the late 1960's at various Universities. It didn't last very long - Rich was a real A-hole of the first magnitude which often completely overshadowed his ability to connect with the young students - but he sure could play. Technique beyond belief! Bellson, on the other hand, was a complete gentleman and a pleasure to work with. I ran into Bellson later on when I was on tour with the the all-black cast of Hello Dolly featuring Pearl Bailey and Cab Calloway. He would drop in to see Pearl. (That's another story for another time.)

I had a Rogers drum set with both of their signatures on the bass drum and after I quit playing I sold the set to a collector for $4,000.00.

Deane

Well, what do you expect? You're pounding on him six nights a week!

I love arrangers. I respect arrangers, and I respect arranger players. If I didn't, I wouldn't be posting here, and wouldn't care about others opinions.
DonM

I love arrangers. I respect arrangers. I respect SOME arranger players.

I also love bands. I respect other musicians, even if they can't play a keyboard! I respect that it takes immense talent to play a guitar sound, or a sax sound on a keyboard, and make them actually sound like a guitar or a sax, where they have no problem at all! I respect that they often bring something to the table I can't, by myself.

There are some here that don't feel that way. A little humility would go a long way, but I guess, if you can't tell that the arranger is a very poor substitute for talented musicians, there's little point in going much further. I find it telling that there are FAR more videos put up here of real acts than arranger playing. Perhaps, at a subconscious level, we all realize that, no matter how fancy and technological these things get, they are still a very pale shadow of a GOOD band.

And trust me, there are plenty of talentless people with huge egos that end up being jerks and divas... it isn't simply restricted to the great players! But, if I gots to work with a jerk, I'd rather he played well! I guess, if there's one difference here, it might be that one. I'd still rather play with a talented jerk than a soulless machine. Now, of course, I don't always get that option, and thank God the arranger is there to bail me out!

But given a choice...

I saw him in Dublin about 1974, he was great, but did come

across as a "male prima donna" (if there's such an animal)

I remember the bass player( electric) was like a cowed animal,

terrified,almost afraid to play.

In this video I liked his snare sound and by the way, also his

playing.

Frank

P. S. nice post Donny

I don't know how this got to be machine vrs. man, or why such negativity has to be brought in to this thread and others. It has nothing to do with any of us being able to play at Rich's level. None of us could.
We're just telling stories of his obnoxious behavior. BTW -the show where he fired the sax player for missing the bus-- Rich asked during the show that the spotlight on him be turned off. Being that it was a second rate Holiday Inn gig there was probably no one manning the lights so it stayed on. He did one more song, went into his solo and riffed into a buzz roll. Took it down to a whisper and then threw the sticks down and said "Thats it" and walked off. He was known for getting top college grads in his band cheaply with the promise of them being able to pad their resume's and then being very abusive to them.
I would hope if I were ever lucky enough to be in the position to run a great band like that I would be more respectful of the young people I was influencing.

" I respect SOME arranger players."

Oh, I don't think you meant it that way. I think you mean you respect some people's abilities or experience more than others.

I believe that every person on this forum brings something to the table and should be respected regardless of their playing skills.

If it weren't for individual instrumentalists, which most of us have been at one time, we wouldn't have anything to try to emulate! We all enjoy great music regardless of how it is generated, and there is certainly more of it made by bands than arranger players. There is a lot of BAD music made by some bands too. Doesn't mean we need to put anybody down for doing the best they can.

DonM

Louis connected me with what was happening in downtown LA in the early 60's. He and Ray Brown represented everything good about world-class musicians...willing to share and respectful of all people.

Man, I've been lucky in my lifetime!


Russ

No, actually, there are some here with minimal skills I respect a lot.

What I respect is a degree of integrity, of being able to take what we have done and show a degree of humility for it. Replacing flesh and blood musicians with machines that, unless the real musician was quite terrible, don't even come CLOSE to being an adequate substitute, and then crowing about it doesn't meet my standards for 'class', and I would hope most REAL musicians' standards either...

One of these days, we are going to have to admit that we share a profession, a passion, an avocation with others who may not be looking to replace us as a way to make a quick buck, and stuff the coffers of an AD or restaurant owner. What makes us different?

Bringing up stories about notorious drummers, as if this is any justification, is so disingenuous... For every talented diva, there are dozens, nay, hundreds of talented humble players. TBH, the only diva behavior I see on this forum is the glee with which some of you recall being able to fire your other musicians, given the opportunity to replace them with a beat box that couldn't play its way out of a paper bag! How some of you can bring up stories of him firing players as if this is a bad thing, when you've done the exact same thing yourself beats me!

I feel very lucky that my parents brought me to see many Buddy Rich shows back in the 70's and 80's. I also got to see Louis Bellson many times too. Guys like Buddy Rich, Louie Bellson, Steve Gadd, and Vinnie Colaiuta can play over top, fast and loud, but I've heard them all play very simple sensitive/soft too. A good drummer has to have excellent time, groove, and dynamics. For my gigs, I always hire a percussionist if the budget allows. Nothing beats the real thing!