I haven't had the opportunity to see or try one yet, but from the videos I've seen it appears to be very interesting for those who need those extra keys and want the feel of weighted keys as well. DGX-650

Hello Gary... I have tried the 650 just the other day. It is a nice keyboard but it sounds kind of thin to me. Just does not have the richness of the t4 or the 3000 which you always liked. Great board for just a home piano or practice. Ron

I think, overall, if I wanted to play an arranger from an 88, I would simply get a decent arranger and MIDI it to something like a Yamaha P105 or your choice of inexpensive digital piano. Most arrangers have the ability to 'mirror' their main keyboard on an incoming single MIDI channel from something like this...

But it always strikes me that most of the 88 arrangers I have seen are usually at least a generation behind their 61/76 note counterparts. So maybe it's better to get an S950 or a BK-7m, and run it from a REAL digital piano..?

Diki, in theory - yes, it'd work. In life there can be some issues with touch sensitivity - soft touches will sound louder then they should, and hard touches softer then they should, too. As least I had this issue with PSR-3000 and NP-30.

Remember that the DGX650 which has the exact same piano as the P-105 and sells for $599 without the stand and has 10 drum beats, no arranger at all and only has about 20 sounds is only $200.00 more! and has styles, hundreds of sounds, USB audio recording, a beautiful wooden stand, 6 track recording, lyrics and score on screen, etc. etc.
The DGX will not sound thin when you output it into a nice sound system. That is what I'm doing at my store and I don't think the internal speakers sound think at all, just not as good as bigger and more powerful speakers.

NO fingered on bass.....deal killer no matter what else offered.

This ^ ^

Why do arranger manufacturers think that crippling any 88 arranger compared to a 61 is a good idea? Generally, the 76 version of an arranger is identical to the 61 except more keys. Why make an 88 with far worse abilities than a 61? Do they think that pianists are so much less capable? Do they think that pianists don't NEED on bass? In fact, pianists need that MORE, if the truth be known.

Kabin... most decent arrangers have multiple velocity curves that you can dial in to make 88 controllers work acceptably. Not to mention that most digital pianos also have variable response curves. It should be possible to find a curve that works, unless you are using the cheapest gear possible - can't stand that NP30... that's not 88 wooden touch! It's pretty horrible plastic feel. Typical Yamaha!

Today I had the chance to sample this new keyboard in a shop nearby. I was very impressed . I do not agree with it sounding thin and it was a joy to play and listen to. If I find a buyer for my new Yamaha PSR750 within the next two weeks or so I will almost certainly purchase this piano, which incidentally also looked impressive as well.

regards
John

What would put me off from buying the DGX-650 is the same as what Zuki said above...no "On Bass" chording option. The S750 and S950 have it, as do the previous S700 and S900 and it goes all the way back to the PSR-510 and perhaps even earlier. I think the first Yamaha PSR with it was the PSR-SQ16 (1992). The CVP Clavinova series also has this option. I think the competing Casio pianos also have "on bass" chords available.

Without the ability to play "On Bass" chords, such as Dm/G, C/B, G/D etc. the instrument would severely cripple the advanced player, and prevent the beginner/amateur player from progressing to the more interesting and, most importantly, accurately voiced chords.

Why Yamaha has left out such an important option on an otherwise terrific portable piano is beyond me. Previous DGX pianos had the same omission. Since these instruments have 88 weighted keys, they do not infringe on PSR territory, so why not add "on bass"?

Quite frankly, I'm disappointed.

Ian

I suspect that one trick will work on this keyboard - I mean, when you play the same note in two octaves simultaneously (besides other notes of the chord) in the accompaniment area. This was the doubled note will be the bass note.

I can speculate about what Yamaha thinks: they make it for the customer, who came to the store and thinking which keyboard to chose. Let's say that the customer is a woman, who used to take piano lessons in her school years and now she thinks she'd like to have an instrument at home. She knows that there's so-called 'auto-accompaniment' tool, so she's excited about it. But she looks at PSR-S950 and it scares her to death - how few keys there're and how many buttons! So she sees DGX and she fells in love with it. You know, after it gets to her home, she will lay her fingers on it once or twice, and perhaps a few more times when her friends come by. Okay, maybe she'll play it once or twice a month. But she won't have time to think about the bass note, she'll probably won't be using accompaniment at all. So - this is the thing for those, who want to have an accompaniment on paper. Don't forget - there's only two variations of the style (no 'a','b','c','d' -buttons) and both of them are placed on one button.

You are probably right, but it still limits the instrument to those who may want to learn to play more complex chords. A great many pop songs use on bass chords.

This missing feature (on bass) is what keeps me from recommending the DGX instruments to the more advanced amateur. One thing for sure, I always made it clear to a potential buyer what the function of On Bass did for accompaniment playing. To some it didn't matter, but I wouldn't want a buyer to expect it and not have it, especially on an instrument in this price range.

Personally, I wouldn't buy an instrument without it. I'm very surprised (and more than a little disappointed) it isn't a standard feature being that the DGX doesn't compete with the PSR series, and the next closest would be the much higher priced CVP-series Clavinova.

The way I look at it is that the DGX is so good in so many areas, why cripple it with an accompaniment engine from the low end PSR instruments?

Ian

No doubt they will sell thousands anyway...

Ian, the way I look at it is if they put the T4 guts into the DGX-650 they would be competing with the Clavinova series, which would really be dumb. I think that most of the folks that would buy this board want all the features of a great sounding piano more than they want the intricacies of an arranger keyboard.

Gary

They could put the S750 guts in it, Gary...or even S910...it wouldn't have to be anything as elaborate as a Tyros4.

I think you are right in that many folks might not want the intricacies of an arranger keyboard, but "On Bass" is almost a must have for anyone using auto-accompaniment to any degree other than very simple chords. It would be fine for beginners or amateurs, but the more advanced player would like to have that option, or a player who wants to progress into more interesting chords.

Songs like A Whiter Shade of Pale and mostly anything by Elton John, or Billy Joel (to name only a few) have "On Bass" chords in them, and sound inaccurate when only root note chords are played.

The competition, Casio, has similarly priced and featured pianos that do have "On Bass". It's been available on PSR since 1992!

Maybe someday they'll add it, and I suppose Yamaha has their reasons for not having it...until then, I always make sure a buyer is at least aware of it's absence.

Ian

Yamaha sure do have their reasons... profit.

As long as they can force buyers to buy the massively overpriced Clavinovas, simply to get features that they would get on low end PSR's, Yamaha have achieved EXACTLY what they set out to do.

And while at least half of the serious arranger playing demographic feels that even 76 notes is too big (read 'heavy', despite my BK-9 being pounds less than an S950), odds are we will never see capable 88 note arrangers without an obscene 'furniture tax' penalty doubling their price.

The sad thing is, there are VERY good, quite lightweight proper piano feeling 88 note digital pianos out there... The P105 is 25 lbs... about the same as an S950.

But add a few arranger features to one of these, and suddenly you have the 50 lbs. DGX-650. Talk about a fatted calf! Nobody is going to persuade me that Yamaha stuck another 25 lbs. of circuitry inside!

If Yamaha actually WANTED to make a popular 88 note arranger, they would put the S750 circuitry in a P-105 case, add a color touch screen (so the panel isn't overloaded with buttons) and sell it for about $1800.

But then, they'd never sell another $10,000 CVP-609, would they? LOL

And the thing that really disgusts me is the implication that, if you have the skill to play an 88 note piano keyboard, you apparently don't have the skill to play a 'proper' arranger!

The truth of the matter is, generally, pianists have MUCH better playing abilities than arranger players do (I've listened to enough one finger melody, no improv, no skill arranger demos here to know this!), and probably could use a much better arranger if offered one..!

Yep, profit is probably the main reason.

I played a CVP-609 several weeks ago...beautiful...excellent speaker system, and very attractive cabinet. Absolutely lovely action, if you are fond of 88 weighted graded hammer.

The owner was very pleased with it, indeed, and well he should be, considering it's price. Similar styles and features as the Tyros4 but without the latter's 250 Gig HD.

Another thing that cripples the DGX is that the accompaniment is still only two variations...basically the style engine out of the lower end PSR.

And yes, a P-105 with the guts of an S750 would be a nice combination.

Ian

You can MIDI a P-105 into an S950 (or even a T4!) and have it mirror what is up on the 61 action, can't you...

That would give you basically a CVP-609, for about $7000 less ($5000 less for the T4 combo), wouldn't it? LOL

It is obscene, the markup on the upper end CVP's.

Of course it's obscene, Diki...but, it's just business as usual...ha ha!

Plus, not much, if any, competition in that rarefied market...the CVP series has always sold very, very well.

A P-105 midi'd to an S950 or Tyros4 isn't going to look as good in the music room, unless you can manage to cobble together a decent cabinet, or have one made for you...some people just have to have the look, and Yamaha just happens to give them what they want...at a big fat price (and big fat profit for Yamaha) of course.

Style still means a lot to some people or we wouldn't see Rolls Royce and Big Mercs when a cheaper, simpler, more plain automobile would suffice.

I'm not certain, but I believe Roland still make the equally over-priced KR-series....the grand piano version (discontinued, I suspect) was a real looker, but wasn't as well made (sturdy) as the price warranted, as Roland don't actually make real pianos. It was a good effort nonetheless. I thought the action was very authentic.

Overpriced? You bet!

I'm glad that, at least in my case, function trumps style every time, especially when it comes to musical instruments.

I hope Yamaha decides to upgrade the next DGX to at least S750 type specs, but I don't think I'll count on it too much.

Ian

Hey everyone,
I just sat down at the DGX 650 and saw that Yamaha has added a third fingering mode called AI Fingered. "Less than three notes can be played to indicate the chords (based on the previously played chord, etc."
So I tried it and if I play a C with a G below it plays as a C/G and shows this in the screen. D with A and I get D/A, etc. I am not a piano player and not sure if this will do what you are all asking for but the older versions did not have this AI mode.

One more thing I tried. In full keyboard mode if I play a C chord holding down C, E and G and than add any note to the left of C that extra note shows and sounds as on bass notes. So I can have C/Eb, C/E, C/F, C/F#, C/G. Other notes show and play as different chord variations. Again, I don't know if this is what many of you a looking for but I did the test!

I have the same AI Fingered on my Tyros4, George, and it works as you say. It takes a little adjustment, especially if you are used to regular On Bass, but seems to do the trick quite nicely. Thanks for the info.

Now, if they'd only give us 4 variations/style...but maybe that's asking a little too much.

Ian

Actually you CAN'T MIDI a P-105 into something but a computer since is has no MIDI jacks. P-35 still does, though.

You are correct, Kabinopus. The last one I was using for a controller (on my demo S910) was the P-95, which worked very well.

I haven't even tried a P-105, but I have played the P-155, which is also very nice (and has midi in/out), but also more expensive.

I suppose the best combo would be as Diki said above...a P-105 (or P-35) with the innards of an S750.

That being said, I really prefer my own arranger to have a lighter action, the FSX (semi-weighted) on my Tyros4 being perfect for both piano sounds and other voices like guitars, strings, winds and organs etc..

Ian

Do the S950 and T4 have MIDI via USB? The P105 has a USB jack...

The thing about adding an 88 wooden action to your arranger is that you will find that yes, most synth and brass, organ, etc., sounds are easier to play from the lighter action. But you will gain far better dynamics control with the 88 for piano, Rhodes, etc., sounds.

There's a reason, after 400 years or more, we haven't standardized on ONE type of action for everything!

Diki, they both have square USB jacks. The USB cable is square only on one end, because only one of the devices is supposed to be the host.

OK... then there's always this... http://www.kentonuk.com/products/items/utilities/usb-host.shtml or http://www.iconnectivity.com/iConnectMIDI

Diki, well, the first one is for 'Class Compliant' USB MIDI Devices, and there're no such words in DGX's manual, and the second one is 'no longer available' with $199.00 price tag.

They were just the first few I Googled.

I would imagine, if it actually mattered to you, that you could quickly find out how to convert the USB MIDI into regular MIDI.

It might prove less expensive than upgrading to a digital piano that had MIDI on it, I don't know.

The only way to do it which I know is to use a computer.

I used to play my PSR-3000 with an external keyboard and I must say that it wasn't very comfortable. All the controls get farther, and so does the speakers, as a result your ears kinda get out of a proper sound image.

A few years ago someone made a remark on this forum that the PSR-9000Pro didn't sell well, so Yamaha has been trying not to make the same mistake since then.

I had a 900 pro and I love it , that was the last 76 key I hope yamaha offers it again TOTL 76 keys. So us piano players can only take out I unit.