During the last three months I first added a secondhand Roland E-50 and later on a BK-7m to my existing set up, Korg PA800 and Yamaha PSR750. I sold the E-50 within two weeks and the BK-7m should be going today. I would like to thank the "four D's " (Deane,Don,Donny and Diki) for their advice and assistance with the Roland gear.For many years now I have been trying to grasp why folks like Diki and Fran are so enamoured with the somewhat obsolete Roland material, in particular their G70 flagship. I for one started out with Roland gear in the 1990s and programmed endlessly on the G800, whose styles I thought ( and still think) were pretty corny, certainly compared to the new Korgs that appeared on the horizon in the mid 1990s.
However I learned that folks like Diki and Fran basically use their arranger for the bass and drum tracks and fill in most of the rest themselves or their bands. Having used the E50 and now the BK7m I can well understand their enthusiasm in this respect.Compared to my Korg and Yamaha the drum and bass sounds on the BK7m are vastly superior to the Yamaha and slightly better than on the Korg. (N.B. though not familiar with the new Korgs, I am under the impression that the drums on the previous series PA1X/PA80 and subsequently therefor even on the KMA are actually better than on the PA800/PA2X ).
So why not hang on to the BK7m you may well wonder ?
Well for starters it sorely misses one of Roland's highlights, the Dynamic Arranger. You must have had it to appreciate it and feel the lack of it.( I understand that even the new BK9 does not sport this facility and that Diki has contacted Roland about it in order they might incorporate it in a future update). But the major reason for letting it go again so soon is that, suffering from chronic headaches as I do, this contraption is bound to give any sane person a chronic headache eventually. Of course I mean the programming which has to be done via one dial/button for each and every parameter you can think of. At least the E50 like the G70 had both Dynamic Arrangers and superb touch screens. So who knows I might one day decide to get a G70 after all, but then I guess I would have to part with my yamaha PSR750 which, lousy as the bass and drums may be, gives me a lot of pleasure and many of the righthand sounds are absolutely superior to the Roland and even the Korg. Having said all that I am sure the next owner of my BK7m is going to be very pleased with the tremendous amount of styles etc. and as long as his programming will be limited he will feel quite happy with it.
I am looking forward to reading your BK9 experiences.

regards,
John

P.S. did you know the German guy (Deebach) is introducing a complete new sound system to work with virtually all Korg PA arrangers ? I'll keep you posted.

John:

From the various demos of the G70 I've heard it has a wonderful warm live sound that, at least to me, is still superior to any current Yamaha or Korg Arranger. It certainly sounds better than my Tyros 3 where drums, bass and piano are concerned. As you noted where the Yamaha is superior are the right hand sounds. The SA and SA2 Trumpets, Tenor Sax, Guitar, Harmonica,etc are just so realistic and a joy to play. That's the reason I keep the T3. I no longer use it as an Arranger as the Styles and their sound just doesn't cut it for me. I use the Motif to create my own "Performances" (which are basically similar to styles). It's very easy and the results superior to styles. Then again my needs are very different from most of the members on this forum. I don't gig. I compose and record my own music, make CDs and distribute them to people who enjoy my work. It's a hobby. That said, if Korg or Roland released an Arranger with right hand sounds equal to Yamaha's SA/SA2 I would trade in the T3 immediately. My hope is that Yamaha will add SA/SA2 voices to the Motif successor. One other question: What is the Dynamic Arranger feature you mentioned?

Joe

So John when are you ordering the Bk9...cant wait for your review on it.

Hi Joe,

I do not gig either, or rarely, and also record at home and distribute to friends and acquaintances. I do not compose but often try and arrange wellknown songs in a different manner. As such the Korg has always been a great help to me. You can download my latest efforts on the Korg with the links below.
I have been contemplating a swap of the Yamaha for the G70 but all the righthand sounds on the yamaha and certainly the very meritable acoustic piano has been witholding me................
As to the Dynamic Arranger, in all former Roland Arrangers up to the E-50/60 you could give values ranging from minus 64 to plus 64 for each and every accompaniment track. This way you could program a busy arrangement in such a manner that with e.g. a light touch the Roland would play acc. tracks 1 and 2, and with heavier touch of the left hand it would play other sections. ( or you could vary all the plusses.....). This made for an extremely versatile approach of playing the styles.

regards,
John

https://www.box.com/s/k2y9a6x7oh7knnl5dxxb
https://www.box.com/s/ojt88o3vtfnmt0qju57g

John:

I listened to a few of your recordings. You have a nice relaxed signing style and you do an excellent job at mixing and balancing your recordings keeping the backing uncluttered but complimentary to your singing. I wish I could sing as well as you as I very often write lyrics for my instrumental compositions. Here is link to a recent one and the Lyrics follow below. Maybe one day I'll get a mike and try to sing.


Box.net


I Never Thought I’d Love Again
Lyrics by Joe F. Regina ©2013

I never thought I’d love again
To be in love was just a fantasy

But now I’m coming alive
With feelings I can’t deny

It’s a new life for me
A life I never thought I’d see

Can this be really happening to me
Emotions running to the surface now
Should I abandon fear and take a chance
Or is this just a pointless brief romance

I’ve been hurt
So many times before
Just don’t know
What lies in store

It’s a lonely world
Without love
Not the kind of world
That I’m dreaming of

So if I take a chance
On this new romance
I face all my fears

I’m embracing all the love
Throwing caution to the wind
Running fearless toward the light
Love can shower on the night.

John, one thing that I thought you might have tried with the BK-7m is incorporating it via MIDI with your Yamaha. I agree that the Yamaha has some better RH sounds and a good style selection. But one application I thought would be a no brainer would be to take the Yamaha's drum track, and mute it in the Yamaha, and send it to the Roland...

Best of both worlds!

This business of having 2 or 3 MOTL arrangers, and then combining them into one über-arranger is what makes the idea of having more than one work. If every song is more a case of 'I'll do this on the Korg's arranger section' and 'I'll do this on the Yamaha', even though you may be doing RH voices on all of them, you are missing out on the best that they can do. Each arranger has strong points and weak points. Combining them with MIDI (you'll probably need a fairly decent master keyboard to pull it all off) is what will give you the most variety and quality of sounds.

Imagine a song with the Yamaha's guitar parts, the Roland's drums and bass, and some comping from the Korg. Now imagine that each song you do, you can pick and choose different (but related) styles from each arranger for the parts you want. Your style choices just went exponential, as you get a huge variety of possibilities rather than relying on one arranger for the entire arrangement.

If I ran multiple arrangers, this is what I'd be doing...

Diki,

"....Your style choices just went exponential, as you get a huge variety of possibilities rather than relying on one arranger for the entire arrangement...."

You are hitting the nail right on the head here. EXPONENTIAL being the key word. Although variety is the spice of life I tend to think that our choices have become too large to comprehend. I mean take me. I do know my way about with my Korg PA the way you do with the G70 but even then perhaps we have only explored what.....70% of its potential. Of course I could have mixed the Roland module with the Yamaha midi wise but due to several reasons one of them concerning my health, I thought I would not bother but rather concentrate on the music.
I even did a houseparty performance a few weeks ago, my first in well over ten years ( go figure !!) and only used my semi acoustic guitar and a number of backing tapes, some of which I had even concocted myself over a number of years. Good fun and I did not even miss my keys ! But like Joe here my main effort would be to re-arrange popclassics and make them sound different with the means at my disposal.
And as to you Donny, forget about it mate, unless of course you are blowing the dollarbills my way ( :)). Seriously though I have never even contemplated going down that avenue.
I guess in retrospect I should have spent the money that I did spend on the BK7m on a used G70 (...which I might still do in time...). If you consider all the styles available that do use the Dynamic Arranger ( take the lot made by Mart Weeho for starters) it is outrageous for Roland to have dropped this feature.
Which brings me to Joe's last comments and song. Thanks by the way for the compliments paid Joe. I take it this is the Motif we are listening to ? As to writing your own stuff, full marks here, I never got beyond some juvenile love stuff , I guess that is why I turned to re-arranging covers. The piano is very good, the sax later on in the song is outstanding. I see what you mean cause this definitely calls for a lady-singer to be sung. The basic accompaniment is very lucid be it a bit too repetitive in my ears, I guess also due to the length of it.But I assume it does take a gargantuan amount of work to get this done on a NON arranger keyboard ?

regards,
John

P.S. Diki, have you ever heard or experienced the Roland SRX-11 piano soundcard ?

John:

Yes,the backing on the song is from the Motif. It's all Arpeggio driven and it was not very difficult to create. Actually quite easy and fun. Just pick a voice and then select from thousands of styles of intelligent arps (arps that respond to how you play), play and listen. Repeat if not satisfied. Do that for each backing voice (Drums, Bass, E Piano, Guitar, Strings, Pads). You can create a four part backing in a few minutes. It does take longer but only because there are so many arps to choose from. The lead piano, Trumpet and Sax are from the T3.

BTW, I have done something similar to what Diki suggested. I select a Tyros Style, then mute the Drums and Bass. Then I select a Drum and Bass voice on the Motif with appropriate Arps and I have a Tyros Style with Motif Drums and Bass. Really improves the sound of the Style.

Joe

John- Have you considered a Ketron SD2 ( or now sd1000) for right hand sounds with the Roland arranger you like everything else about? I did that with my pa500 muting the right while using a midi profile with just right hand channel active. Much more compact and super sounds; but of course you know that.

Sparky,

About a year ago I had the SD2 module but in combination with my Korg PA800 I found it added little. Never tried it with my recent PSR750 which might be worth the effort. I checked on its successor the SD1000 which apparently is only hitting the market here in Europe this very month. Something perhaps to bear in mind.I still am in two minds about what to do. Either keep things the way they are, after all I am quite content with my Korg PA800 and the PSR750 has some great right hand stuff. On the other hand I might be tempted to get a G70 +Ketron SD1000 instead of the yammie.

regards,
John

Rather than a G70, if money is an issue, I might look at an E60/50. The one big thing those add (if I remember rightly) is some of the new kits that are in the BK are included. I like them a lot.

Did you get my PM John?

Thanks for the advice Diki. I had one last month remember, but I thought the acoustic piano on it, which I use a lot, also in the tweaked styles acc. tracks, was very poor.....

Dennis,
sorry but I rarely watch PMs. I did now and have answered yours.

regards,
John

But if the other arrangers have good pianos, why nix it just for one sound..? Using three makes a lot of decisions easier...

So eventually I ditched the BK-7m as well and last night the owner of a music shop over 130 kilometres away brought me a mint Roland G70 at a very very competitive rate, which is now sitting in my room along with the Korg PA800 and Yamaha PSR 750.
Not having played Roland for the last decade but being very familiar with the G800 generation I thought it would be a breeze but it is not. That is like any major totl keyboard the amount of parameters is dazzling, but that is not much of a problem really apart from being a time thief... The structure of saving and loading registrations, styles, etc. I find truly obnoxious, other than that it sounds promising along my other boards. So now I can put the "four D's " contributions to good use after all and I will not even have to do without Touch Screen,Aftertouch and Dynamic Arranger, things so conspiciously absent on the new Roland flagship. Extra thanks to Diki who in a PM explained a few pressing matters to me.
Having said all that and with all my personal experiences in arranger keyboards it remains a mystery to me why these companies continue to churn ot new arranger keyboards doing two steps forward but ( at least) one step backwards. I guess that is where the money is to be made really. It is amazing to see how many cannot wait for a Tyros 5 (or equivalent) to hit the scene. Truly remarkable!

regards,
John

I admit that Roland seem to be the worst culprit when it comes to dropping things as well as simply adding more...

I have no idea why this is. Poor market research is where I'd first put it. I have NEVER been contacted by Roland in the 20 years of using their arrangers professionally!

Then they have ZERO customer relations. You see Steve Demming from Yamaha often come here and ask for input. Ever seen anyone from Roland here? Me neither

And, obviously, Yamaha DOES LISTEN!

Cheers,

Gary

Gary with all due respect (and you know I have tremendous respect for you and the way you have remained loyal to the PSR3000 over many years), Yamaha may listen to some extent, but releasing a new Tyros or new PSR every two or three years with relatively minor steps forward is also relative. What it does accomplish is to lure the loyal Yamaha fan to part with his hard earned cash and swap, say the Tyros 3 for a Tyros 4 and so forth. I think all major company are to blame, but then again they are companies and they are basically in it for the money, not for the musician who is their prime target !!!

Incidentally, having now at my disposal all three major brands I can once more utter my disbelief at those who think Korg's OS is hard to grasp. I think all PA Korgs with their touch screens and O.S. are superior to Roland and Yamaha. Yamaha in itself is not that hard to grasp but trails due to the lack of a touchscreen. The previous generation of Rolands, including my "new " G70 do sport a touchscreen but I still think that their O.S. was probably developed in China, not in Japan.... , whereas their new BK series even lacks the conveniences of a touchscreen. I have been told by a friend of mine who acquired the BK9 that, although some of the samples are absolutely great, the operating system with the non touchscreens and the dial is a real pain in the you-know-what.
The step backwards no doubt......

regards,
John

John it is what we are use to using ..that makes it seem easier..

Here is an example for you...Lets take a style..change a couple instruments in the accomp. Maybe add some effect changes, maybe change velocity of the drums...also get rid of the hand clap...change the pitch of the snare, and make some changes with the Eq on some of the drum instruments...Like the results..but I want to add 6 layer sound for live play..3 on the left side and 3 on the right...may be a 3 way split....Now I like the results, and want to save for instant recall....No problem with the made in Italy touchscreen on the G70...and it can easily be done in less than 2 minutes...now try this on the Korg..yes I know , some of the above cannot be done on the Korg, but do the best you can...let me know when you are done ..I am going to breakfast..will that be enough time

And if you are trying this on a Yamaha,,I will take a couple days off to relax..will that be enough time to finish on the Yamaha?

As I said for the most part it is what we are use too...but the edits on the G70 with touch screen are far better when you want to get the job done, especially on stage..

This will also be the biggest short coming on the BK9...

Touch screens rule..and when you add OS that can do the job..you have a winner..

Most OS's, if you spend enough time on them, end up seeming pretty familiar. Once you get used to them, you never really remember the effort and head scratching you had when you first got into it.

John, trust me... if you came into Korg for the first time after using Roland, or Yamaha, you would be getting those headaches daily!

I think that one of the areas that Korg suffer from the most is that NOTHING is ROM, essentially. Everything can be overwritten with your own stuff. Styles in the main section, Tones, effects, you name it. From working with Korg users, one of the most frequent problems they present me with is 'I've overwritten a Factory sound/style/Performance (whatever) and now my Performances or Songbooks are messed up!'

Maybe not the hardest issue to fix, but it simply illustrates the potential pitfalls Korg can present you. In truth, as long as I have my OWN area of storage where I can put my own stuff, I don't really feel the burning desire to mess with the ROM area (or what is a ROM area for most other arrangers)..! I think Korg unnecessarily complicate things with this system. Of course, it's great for the power users that everything is completely user configurable. Korg have made the closest thing to a true workstation in the arranger pantheon. BUT.... you have to look at what the average arranger user's general technical ability is. On the whole, these things are bought because somebody wants something EASIER than a full blown workstation!

This is the only arranger with basically a FULL WS as the underpinnings, including a full featured sampler, then a VERY complicated arranger is tacked on over the top... It's hardly surprising that, to people coming to it from arrangers designed primarily for simplicity and ease of use, it is like walking into a NASA briefing!

Personally, if I want to be baffled by a piece of gear, I'll stick with my Kurzweil! When it comes to arrangers, I want as much simplicity as I can get away with without losing total control. I am sure, if I get a TOTL Korg, eventually I'll have it down. But I know, simply from messing with my friend's PA3X, that it will take a LOT longer than anything else in the arranger world!

Fran's challenge is a valid one. When it comes to rapidly setting up Performances from scratch, and doing the main tweaks that optimize a style for you, and then saving it without risking messing something else up, my tip of the hat goes to Roland. And, I'm sure that anyone coming to BOTH for the first time (say from Yamaha) will get the Roland OS down MUCH faster...

John,

Sorry I didn't get back to this one sooner, but I've been out sailing Chesapeake Bay for the past two days and nowhere near a PC, let alone the Internet.

I believe Yamaha's biggest changes were made with the introduction of the PSR-2000, followed by the PSR-3000 and S-950.

The updates from the PSR-740 to the PSR-2000 were incredible - no doubt about it. And the same was true from the 2000 to the 3000 - lots of exceptional changes, and all highly beneficial for the musician/entertainer/singer.

The PSR-S-950 was pretty much as remarkable is the 2000/3000 changes. I listed them in another post several months ago, and all were in response to what form members on this and other forums have been requesting for a decade.

For example, forum members asked for a color change, back to basic black, believing it looks more professional. I'm not sure about whether black really impacts this image of pro V/S home player, but now we're back to basic black. Of course, the downside was the lettering in the buttons is a bit more difficult to see, but some players have overcome this using white ink and silver felt-tipped pens.

Members asked for a better vocal processor, with a higher quality harmonizer - Yamaha gave it to them in the S-950.

Yamaha next provided players with a better display, one that could be readily seen while sitting down or standing, and even from the side. Yeah, no touch screen yet, but not everyone agrees about touch screens, at least those that are OMB entertainers.

Some folks gripe about Yamaha's key feel, I'm not one of them, though. The S-950 is much firmer than the 3000 by a long shot.

Home players wanted a better onboard amp and larger speakers- they got it with the S-950.

In addition to several new styles, the S-950 also has some incredibly realistic sounding voices, especially the guitars, horns, some of the saxes, woodwinds, and some great sounding, new drum kits - all stuff players asked for and received from Yamaha.

People were always bitching about the Music Finder Directory, mainly because you could only access onboard styles. They fixed that, too. Now, some folks want the MFD to directly access the registrations, but for the life of me, I just don't know why. Most of those players I've run across have never used the MFD - EVER! And, it's not because it doesn't access the registrations. I think, at least for them, it's just too damned much work to sit down and program 500 to 700 songs in a single directory. This, despite the fact that Michael Bedesem and Jorgen Sorensen both have great, free software available for doing this on your PC.

As for the operating system, I never had a problem learning it, but there's no doubt about it that the User Manual is very poorly written. I was a free-lance writer for 35 years and I can assure you that if I were to have submitted anything written remotely as bad as ALL the keyboard user manuals I've read, Roland, Korg, Yamaha, etc..., I would never have been able to sell a single article, let alone make a good living doing so.

As for the upgrades in the Tyros series, I don't believe the big updates became available until the Tyros-4 hit the market. The differences between the Tyros-1, 2 and 3 were miniscule at best. Granted, each had some pretty exciting updates, but nothing an OMB entertainer could not live without, at least until the T4 came along. The T4 vocal processor was a huge improvement over the T3, and some of the other features, which I unfortunately cannot recall at this time, were pretty remarkable.

Now, I seriously thought about getting a T4 for home, and an S-910 for on the road. Then, after making that sailing trip to the Florida Keys, playing my 3000 for some really diverse audiences, and enjoying every minute of living aboard the sailboat and using it was a home base for my traveling music show, I had second thoughts. Hell, I'm going to be 73 years old in October, I can still sail the boat single handed, even in some of the worst storms anyone can imagine, but I'm not sure how much longer my voice will hold out, which is the mainstay of my entertainment package. So instead of putting out $6,000 for a couple new keyboards, I think I'll just keep plunking on those trusty, time-tested PSR-3000s until either they, or I meet an untimely demise. The money will be spent on traveling around the country by both car and boat, visiting old friends, and new ones I've met on the Synthzone and PSR-Tutorial sites.

I don't need no stinkin' touch screen!

Cheers,

Gary

Maybe they just don't like jazz....

Gary dear friend you are not ony an accomplished entertainer but (see quote) a very very wise man as well................

As to your remarks as well as Diki's and Fran's let me say this.
First there is no accounting for tastes. All major keyboard brands offer value for money no doubt about that.
Gary in your summing up you virtually confirmed what I said about Yamaha, that is that in three different generations of keyboards e.g. tyros 1,2,3, the improvements were minor but did cost the prospective buyers a lot of though. Korg, by updating every five years (approx). does a slightly fairer job here but that is open to discussion. Roland has done a bad job since the G70 and it seems to me that although the BK series is a sonic improvement too many corners have been cut. I am just getting familiar with the old G70 that I bought and will upload a prime example of what I mean later on this week.

Now as to the Operating System and the TouchSCreen. I have do disagree with all of you there. (Gary) there is no beating a good touchscreen sported by most Korg an Roland arrangers.
Second I have to disagree with Fran at least in the Roland Korg comparison. Once you are familiar with the OS the Korg is much user friendly and a lot faster than the Rolands.
Anyway like I said they are all terrific boards and do not forget that ultimately the manufacturers are not in for the benefit of us the musicians. They are in it for the big bucks and will go to any length to ensure they will haul them in.
With my current G70, PA800 and PSR750 I could easily construe a nigh on perfect arranger keyboard and I am convinced so could the industry. But why would they, it is like shooting into your own foot ! capisce ?!

kind regards,
John

You never miss what you never had!

Diki, I have lots of touch screen devices, including a super GPS/Plotter that sells for more than my keyboard. I just don't need touch screen on my keyboard. Some folks love them - I'm just not one of them.

Cheers,

Gary

Trust me, Gary. Tied to an OS that makes the best use of it, a touch screen more than halves the time to do ANY task. Unless you are always setting up Performances for every single song well in advance, unless you have a setup ready to go for every single circumstance you find yourself in, a touch screen is almost a necessity.

Play as a single 100% of the time, with everything set up the way you want it, you barely need a screen of any kind! Get outside of that comfort zone, you have no idea how much time it saves, how it makes doing things to your rig that you wouldn't even consider doing without one not just possible, but enjoyable..!