On another thread, I wrote.....

I think Robert (Messier) is a good player, but I don't think he's a GREAT player. He's bordering on "dry" himself........again, just playing the notes! I've watched him in other video's and get that same feeling........good playing, but nothing that really moves me.

see......
arranger keyboard makes Canadian TV appearance

I DO think he plays well, knows his notes, can play many different styles, and is much better than your average keyboard player, but......I stand by what I said..."nothing that really moves me." I don't sense any emotion in his music. You might have a different opinion, but that's how I see it (or rather...hear it).

I watched the Smoke on the Water video (half-through) and the Dueling Banjo's (played on the Yamaha). Great music but too pre-packaged and predictable. Good presentations and good playing ability but more politically correct than entertaining.

That said, I really posted this to hear from some of you...who you've viewed on Youtube that you consider to be a great OMB that really "moves" you....who works every feature on their keyboard....makes you want to tap your feet and makes you feel happy listening to them (and doesn't forget to use "fills")?

I thought about it for a while and I came up with...Jurgen Sartorius (Germany) demo-ing the PA2x. I haven't heard him on the PA3x but I listened to most of his Musikant demo's on the PA2x.

There are two artists that really put me in a good mood when I listen to them: the Jimmy Sturr Polka Band and........Jurgen Sartorius!

Your candidate is......? Your comments are.........?

I'm pretty impressed by whoever is doing the playing on the BK-9 demo series that is labeled 'Famous musicians tested Roland BK-9'. The poster doesn't name them (it is a few different people), but they all have chops. And some of the jazz guitar emulation is some of the best I have ever heard.

Robert isn't playing in arranger mode at all in that Canadian broadcast, he's playing to either a sequence or an MP3. Not that that doesn't count as an OMB, but on an arranger forum, it's nice to see people playing LIVE in arranger mode and not sounding like amateurs!

Links to the whole series are on this thread: http://www.synthzone.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/366590/all/New_Amazing_Demo_Roland_BK_9

Main thing is, you can see the guys playing in arranger mode (when they use it). No trickery, no gimmicks. Just good playing.


And anything that quotes Keith Emerson is fine by me!

Oh, and this performance by Marco Parisi on the PA3X totally blew me away. Virtually every aspect of the PA3x exploited to its full funkiness!

alan mc pike you tube

Have a look at this guy....
Everything is live.
Just a wonderful musician.

There are just so many it depends on what type of music you are after, and this comes down to personal preference. (There is no one best)

Here is a selection

Enjoy

Bill

Peter baartmans is just incredible

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bm2CMv2J8cc

DON MASON !

Mark,

This is a very subjective thread, one that you have to closely examine many aspects in order to list a single person. From a purely musicianship standpoint, there are lots of outstanding performers on this and other forums that would easily fit this criteria. However, it's not just the person's ability to play the keyboard, it's a multitude of other things that make a person a great arranger keyboard performer/entertainer, not the least of is his or her singing ability.

Additionally, their ability to read an audience and capture them during a performance, their ability to quickly make the transition from one song to the next with little or no dead time between songs, their ability to interact with their audiences and make each and every song a fun event in itself. All of these things combined make a huge difference between someone who is a good musician, and a great OMB musician/entertainer/performer. When you analyze all of those attributes, the list gets pretty small, IMO.

I suspect that Michael Voncken would be right at the top of that list. He has a great singing voice, his repertoire is incredible, he's a master technician with every model of Yamaha keyboard I've seen him play, he's humorous and interacts constantly with his audiences - large and small, and his playing skills are beyond description. I would find it very difficult to put anyone above him in those categories.

Gary

Norbert Ludewig

Exceptional Viennese player and more Norbert Ludewig

Saw a little Viennese guy in a jazz club in Tenerife back in the early 70's. Old then, so no doubt long gone, but he played a huge Galaxy Hammond, kicked the pedals like a monster, comped and soloed his butt off on the Galaxy. He then had a piano on his right (upright) and would kick pedals and comp on the Hammond, then solo on the piano, at the same time. Then he'd pick up a trumpet, and blow his ass off while kicking pedals and comping like a madman. Then he'd put down the trumpet, and sing as well as Sinatra!

OK, OK, this was pre-drum machines, so he had a cool black guy on the drums.. so that makes him strictly not an OMB, but wow!

Pre-technology, he blew everyone I have ever seen since out of the water. Standards, bebop, cool, swing... he did them all. I am ashamed I can no longer remember his name. He owned the tiny little downstairs bar in the Canaries, seating for twenty people tops, put on three shows a night, and lived the life we all dream of!

Mad respect...

Watch that old stuff, Diki - I resemble that remark.

Gary

Interesting read...all your nominees. But I think you missed my point. Or maybe I didn't say it that clearly.

It's not about who has the fastest hands in the West or who can play Ave Maria on one hand while simultaneously playing In the Mood on the other and the Flight of the Bumblebee with their foot pedals, or who can play six gazillion styles of music while eating a 16" pizza, or who can play their keyboard by mental telepathy, etc.

There are many that I'd be the first to agree are top-notch, superior in every respect, first-line players. There are just NONE, in my book, who make great MUSIC. The kind you just can't stop tapping your feet to...the kind that when you hear it you want to get up and dance, even if you're sitting in a bus! Players who really get into the music mastery, NOT the keyboard mastery. Players who FEEL the music first and then play what they feel. Not players who just play notes as I'm starting to observe so many do nowadays.

I pulled out my Peter Bartmann audios and listened to five of them. Technically brilliant playing, but no really great driving melody in the notes.

Again, I agree with all the names mentioned here.....they're all top of the line, first rate players. No one in their right minds would deny that. But I feel they just put notes out there in any order, just as long as they get them out.

BTW.....it's only recently I thought about what I'm saying here. Up until this point, I also stood there with my mouth wide open and jaw dropped down to my knees when I heard some of what they do with their keyboards. But you're got to remember, the artistry is NOT just in being a keyboard whiz....there's just as much hard work that goes into making great music also.

Definition of "great music:" something that seems to have gone the way of mom's home-made apple pie.

I see it this way......it comes down to "good music" vs "good keyboard technique." There's a huge difference. Do you want to impress other musicians or do you want to make beautiful music for your listening audience?

BTW Part II......kudos to Gary. He came closest to recognizing what I was trying to say!

BTW Part III....yes, Donny might have been joking, but Don M is a good example of someone who "gets your feet tapping" with those great C&W tunes I've heard of his!

To the op .That's not really fair . The goalpost keep moving. All of the musicians there are great one man band players. If you want to look at who is the best composer or writer its a different question. All the clips that you have seen on YouTube are great musicians playing brilliantly and if it didnt move you then it just did not move you ! In most of the clips they are clearly demonstrating an instrument so they have to show their technical wizardry. But they do so excellently. With great touch and feel . Please post up a clip of some music that moves you as I don't know what that might be .

Have a listen to the great Peter Baartmans . The essence of great arranger playing is being able to interpret the instrument that you are correctly like the instrument in a real world environment would sound . With Peter, whether he's playing the guitar, saxophone, a trumpet, a piano organ, he will always play the instrument in the way that you would naturally hear it sound in a real live environment. Have listened to this clip and tell me if it doesn't move you and why . http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TRn-HINlfWg&feature=plcp

Mark- You have watched and listened to Norbert play. I'm a bit surprised you would group him in with your "none". Perhaps you should let him read that, or should I? But it is an opinion poll really....and where do you put yourself?

This reminds me of an old friend (passed), ..Tom came from the big band era, and arranged for several bands..
Tom learned to play keyboards when he was in his early 60's..He started his solo arranger play at that time...He use to amaze me as he played arranger keys, he played trumpet (his main instrument)...but the thing was...he played them in different keys

Tom also was a fine vocalist...I miss him..

To the OP... I think you are expecting too much for someone that fits your criteria, creative, expressive, original, playing from the heart, and then expect them to play an arranger! The exact OPPOSITE of all of that...

Players that fit your criteria play with REAL musicians. Not machines.

I couldn't disagree more, Diki. I know a lot of so called real musicians, guys that are Peabody trained, can play a piano better than anyone that I've ever come across, real musicians in every sense of the definition. Several of them, particularly in the past decade, have switched to playing an arranger keyboard. Why? Because it stimulates their creativity and makes them want to play more than ever. You don't have to be a guitar player to be a real musician, anymore than you have to be a piano player with a Steinway Grand - that's BS. An arranger keyboard IS A REAL INSTRUMENT! You must possess all the skills required to play any keyed instrument, piano, organ, accordion, etc...,but additionally, you need the technological skills to play it well. If anyone should know that, it should be you, Diki.

Just about everyone on this forum has played an instrument other than an arranger keyboard at one time or another. I played guitar, and at one time I was considered damned good at it. Don Mason played trumpet and was first seat. DNJ played an accordion, and if I recall so does Fran. There's no better piano player on this forum, IMO, than Joe Ayala. Just because they now choose to play an arranger keyboard over those previous instruments doesn't make them any less of a musician. In fact, I consider it damned well insulting to infer that arranger keyboard players are not true musicians. Are you any less of a musician because you play the G-70? I don't think so. Even if you play that G-70 just as a piano with a group, it's STILL an arranger keyboard.

Now, the OP title is "Who gets your vote for an OMB performance?" Don Mason, DNJ, Fran, Uncle Dave, Eddie Shoemaker, and several others on this forum would be on that list if the list were limited to just this forum. Music is their full time job, and it sure as Hell wouldn't be if they were unable to provide their audiences with outstanding entertainment from their daily performances using the instrument of their choice - an arranger keyboard.

Sorry about the rant, Diki, but that statement was totally uncalled for, IMO.

Gary

When I hear an arranger demo that equals the best live playing, I'll eat my words. Until then...

My playing a G70 with a live band means I am NOT using it in an OMB situation. And if my G70 sounded even slightly as good as the band I play with, well, they'd be out of a job, wouldn't they? LOL

Look, I understand how defensive so many OMB arranger users can get. And, for the life of me, I can only put it down to one thing. Deep in your heart of hearts, you KNOW it is a poor substitute for a good creative band.

We may all START out creative, original, expressive, emotional. THEN we decide we'd rather make money. But take that factor away from us, and anyone with any honesty would tell you they would rather be playing with a great live band. That it may not be convenient, that you prefer not to put up with the baggage that comes from having to deal with other personalities (that may be as strong, and maybe as acidic as our own!) is all well and good. But the results, when played back, make our efforts with an arranger so obviously fake that we have to tap dance as fast as we can to excuse it.

I make no apologies for bringing this up. Sure, maybe on ONE tune, one time, I can make something that equals a good live band (especially if I'm using loops of great live players in the first place! Or a karaoke track...) but the NEXT time I play it, it will sound darn near identical. That arranger isn't going to make the slightest attempt to be creative, and put a different spin on the tune, subtly or grossly. It isn't going to surprise me, it isn't going to push me in a direction I didn't realize I wanted to go, it isn't going to come up with a substitution I hadn't thought of, or an alteration of the groove, a push or a kick here or there.

That is the robotic nature of the beast.

Your rant, Gary, seems a bit off base. I at no point suggest that people PLAYING arrangers aren't talented. Far from it! To achieve what they do, given the handicap of only a soul-less machine to play with, some pretty good stuff has been achieved. All I try to point out is that, FAR better results can be had by playing with the best live players that will play with you. And THAT requires a lot of compromise.

But creative, original, emotional artists are always willing to make that compromise. The rest of us just want to make money!

Be honest for a minute... If money were no object, if great musicians were lining up at your door to play with you, to jam with you, to help you achieve your musical vision, would you turn them away and go switch on your PSR?

Didn't think so.

Sparky......no matter how you slice the pie, that was a low blow...period….both to me and and to Norbert! I don’t think he would appreciate his name being brought up in this thread and thrown around the way you‘re doing it....ESPECIALLY after what he's just been through!

FYI, I consider Norbert a good musician, a good sound technician and a class act. But this post had nothing to do with local musicians who are not known to most of the members here. It was all about video’s seen on Youtube.



I'm not quite sure what that has to do with the question in my original post? Maybe you can explain to me why I need to “rate” myself in order to do a post asking others who THEY feel makes great music?


That's the only part you got right!!!

Diki.....most times I admire you for your musical knowledge. Other times I get amused with your obvious obsession and dedication to being "difficult."

This is one of those "other times!"

fwiw I agree 100% with Diki

And I feel sorry for those who have to "play with real musicians!"

Some of the remarks in this WHOLE thread brought back to my mind WHY I became a OMB in my early 20s. I was playing in a wedding band. I was ambitious, dedicated, anxious to make beautiful music. I liked the guys in the band but, unfortunately, all they wanted to do was take cigarette breaks, drink on the job, talk to women, play their songs in a most predictable way, not practice during the week, and, on top of all that, bicker and throw darts at each other (just like is done here sometimes!).

Well, one day I was walking past my local music store and saw my first "drum machine" (a Maestro as I recall). I instantly realized THAT was my calling. I bought it and converted to OMB-ism. From then on I got to work with my creative self as compared to having to align myself to what others are doing.

It was the best decision I ever made. I got to express all of the above (creative, expressive, original, playing from the heart,) because I chose to go it alone. I got to play all over Western Europe for years as a first-class accordionist and OMB. I got to play French musette accordion in Paris, Bierkellars in Germany, Italian love songs in Italy, paso dobles and tangos in Spain, etc. Something I could never have done if I subscribed to the "Players that fit your criteria play with REAL musicians...not machines" school of thought!

I DO miss the "ideas" one gets from playing with others...I think I could have been so much better had I done that. But, making the decision to be a OMB means total "freedom." You report to no one but yourself, you account to no one, you play what you want, and you play it with whatever feeling you can muster up!

Playing as a OMB is neither a demotion or a promotion. It is simply a "decision" as to where you want to direct your music ability.

And, one more thing. Diki, it doesn't take a lot of talent to do your part in a band. But, it DOES take a lot of talent to BE the band yourself, doing everything....yourself!

The plug needs to be pulled on this thread. Too much negativity and taking "sides!" I knew the topic might turn into a "slugfest," but nothing like this. I honestly regret now asking a simple question like who do YOU think makes great music as a OMB?

Whatever happened to musicians working with each other, sharing ideas, supporting each other, working altruistically with their music in trying to make the world a better place? Or does that happen only in the Twilight Zone?

If you want to continue this thread, I'd now like to hear why some of you feel it NECESSARY to throw jabs at each other...and....instigate...and.....challenge...instead of making constructive and positive conversation? I hate to think this is a microcosm of the real world!

And I feel sorry for anyone that never got to play with musicians talented enough to make them realize what an obvious compromise it is to use a machine...

Playing with an arranger isn't 'doing everything yourself'. It is about as far as is humanly possible to get from that! It is letting a MACHINE do most of it, and all you do is tell it what chords to play, and play a bit on the top of that.

I'm sorry, but 'Freedom's just another word for... nothing left to lose'!

Mark, you yourself brought up the criteria for what YOU consider great music.

Please, inform me how much of it has made it to the charts played entirely on an arranger..?

An arranger is a TOOL, for copying what other people have already created, and performing it with the fewest musicians possible.

And sorry, but if you think this guy (the only name you mentioned in your post as being 'worthy' of your praise) is any different to all the other arranger demonstrators, I am sorry, but we have left the realms of credibility..!



I can't for the life of me hear any of this supposed 'creativity, sensitivity and originality' here. No more than any other arranger demo-er, anyway. Sorry, I guess I didn't read your original post carefully enough. This and a POLKA band is where you set the bar?

I thought for a while you were serious!

Diki.......I'm wondering how you do it? You spend more time being "argumentative" and "being right" and "getting the last word in" .........and you spend time working with REAL musicians........and time reading and learning about every musical instrument or playing situation on the planet......and yet you find time to eat, sleep, and, I assume, brush your teeth every night.

Could you please share with us how you economize your time?

Have you ever considered spending the time you did posting in this thread alone being..."difficult"...taking that time to practice music instead? Perhaps then you could join the ranks of the rest of us OMB's and work a machine like the rest of us and not have to play with REAL musicians anymore?

Also I'm wondering if that is really you that types so well or do you have a ghost-writer?

That is about one of the saddest things I have ever heard or read from a muso. Wow!

Last time I looked, this was an ARRANGER forum. I do like playing with "real" musicians. I even sometimes let them sit in with me, rather than sit in the audience and tell each other how good they are.
Seriously, I like the freedom that being a OMB allows. It has kept me from having to get a real job for 40 years!
Both "sides" have made some good points and have some valid arguments. There is an art to making your point without insulting or hurting feelings though.
That's one of the few good things about getting old. You don't really have to care so much about what other people think. And I'm always right, so there.
By the way, thanks for the nice things said about me. Makes me feel almost adequate!
DonM

LOL... sorry that you didn't get the response to your original question to be the one you wanted. Must be a disappointment. Live with it.

To answer your utterly rude and nasty points one by one...

How do I economize my time? By not worrying about what polka fans and insecure OMB's think of me.

Spent 50 years of my life practicing. Figure I've got enough time to answer some ridiculous questions about inane topics without it hurting my employability.

Not being an utter idiot seems to work fairly well in allowing me to express myself without punctuation and grammatical errors (a good spell checker never hurts, too!). Maybe you could devote some of your practice time away from the machine to that skill? Or do you need it all?