Well, it's done. My first new keyboard since I bought my G70. I'll do a review and maybe some audio examples when it gets here.

Stay tuned.

Also, there's likely to be a used, but good condition G70 for sale as soon as I have dialed in the BK-9. It will come with an SR-G01, the SRX card specifically designed for the G70, with a nice selection of newer sounds (and there's a large library of factory styles revoiced to use them), and a music rest. Factory packing case (I only have the one hard case, as one was for home use only).

No point in a backup G70 now I'll have the BK-9.

Good luck with your new BK9 Diki...cant wait for a full review & demo of course..use it well!!

congratulation for your new baby!
do you have any idea about when it will arrive??

I hope not 9 months!

I also heard about new sw coming in some months with interesting new features!

waiting for a your rewiew!

Phantom... any hints as to the update (or is that simply more iPad apps)?

There's a few things I would KILL for on the BK-9...

The return of the Mark/Jump capability for SMF's, and the return of the Dynamic Arranger feature.

Throw in the return of the Cover Tools feature, and the ability to Link a .CSQ chord sequence to a Performance and I am one happy camper.

Odd (or maybe not so, considering it's Roland!) however that 3 out of 4 things that I would like are things Roland USED to have and dropped. Who on earth at Roland makes these stupid decisions? Do the even PLAY an arranger? I doubt it!

Diki...as far as I can understand it will be both...


I hear various requests about some of these features in different fora...probably some of them in the next releases will be introduced...
maybe asking them in civil manner can increase possibilities!
also contacting directly Roland US could be a possibility.


I think that as in all companies people change in R&D department, so sometimes specific features seem to be not so still important and are left out...
and probably it is not true!

This is about the only leap of faith I have made with a keyboard. Normally, I want to play anything a couple of days to make sure I can't live without it...

But I do have a BK-7m, so quite a bit of the overall workflow and basic sound is familiar to me, and a lot of the styles. So I'm not flying quite as blind as it might seem.

It always pays to take a USB stick to a dealers. If their software isn't up to date, most things upgrade from a stick, nowadays, would have taken you 5-10 minutes to upgrade the store keyboard and then connect to the apps. I think, with how barebones brick and mortar music stores have to be to compete with online sources, that yes, it IS too much to expect all their gear to be upgraded..! YOU probably know ten times as much about the arrangers than any in store personnel!

Diki ... that last sentence being said, and with all the mailicious jackass hackers out there, how many dealers are going to let someone with a USB stick near their keyboards ?!?

Frankiev and George - would YOU ???

Not really that much you can do to a keyboard...

But they might be leery of letting you near their computer system! Perhaps it's worth d/l'ing the update at home (and the update instructions) and just take it to the store.

You make them aware that the sale is predicated by you being able to test how well it works with your iPad, and that that is determined by it being up to date, I doubt any dealer would turn you away from updating it.

Here is a post I wrote to Richard on the Roland arranger site..

Richard, there is a problem with the BK's that bothers me....and I need to have a hands on the BK9 before I consider it...I do have a BK5 now..

When I edit on my G70 (SMF) and save common edits via make up tools, and try them in any BK , it will play, but drums are piano...(same problem with earlier models like the E600)..The biggest problem it causes the make up tools in the BK from recognizing it as a SMF...so we can not edit on the BK..

I know the problem..I can remove specific system ex files via the G70 and resave the file for the BK...Too time consuming for something that works fine on other previous models..G and E series(E50,E60)...I call it a bug...and it needs to be fixed...Here is a file you can test on the BK9...Freeze feature does not fix it...

Basically the error come from g70 and I try to explain what I understood:

XG Midi files should not be mixed with Make Up Tools sysexc
this is why BK doesn't allow you to enter MKT with this XG files
G70 doesn't have such control, so you can enter MKT and add MKT sysexc into XG MIDI files.
On BK, these hybrid MIDI files doesn't work correctly that's why you are listening piano instead of Drum

This is what I understood from a technician's explanation...
some kind of fixing should come indeed...
hope it helps...

best regards

Have you tried 'Freezing' your edits in the G70 before you transfer it over to the BK?

Mentioned in my last sentence above..

Good luck Diki! Don't go schizophrenic with the dual screen

What was the source of the errant SMF's? Were they commercial GS SMF's, XG, made from scratch on the G70, Recorder captures of G70 arranger play?

Sorry I missed the freeze reference.

Did you have an SRX card in the G70, was the sequence pointing to that?

Also, you remember this thread from Roland-Arranger.com? http://www.roland-arranger.com/smf/index.php?topic=1948.0

Seems some of the kits may be missing from the PC#/00/32 table. Have you double checked to see if the kit called up in the SMF has a kit in the BK with the same PC#/32/00?

I seem to remember some styles that were supposed to call up SRX basses, and kept calling up an trumpet, or something along those lines. As soon as I Makeup Tooled them and saved, they played fine.

In all fairness, when I get a new piece of gear, I generally redo all my SMF's. Not really much point playing old SMF's that point to the old sounds... Might as well not have newer gear for that!

Oh, and have you tried simply saving them as is in the BK again, THEN trying the Makeup Tools on them..?

At least I'll never get lonely...

Diki, when editing on a G70 to play on a BK is not a major update ..maybe a change of drums..They are so similar, I would think there should be no problems...When I take a basic SMF and do all edits in the BK make up tools, it is fine..This is what I want to avoid (time consuming)..

Some of the problem files are XG, that worked fine after edits on the G70...both on Prelude, and E-50/60...but not on BK..Yet the BK has no problem with them being a XG file and allows edits from it's make up tools...The problem is the system message that the G70 adds, and not recognized by the BK...

I think this can easily be fixed by Roland..the systems are nearly identicle (G70 and BK)..

I wonder if the lack of a sequencer on the BK5 could be the problem..Although the E-600 had the same problem as the BK5 and it had a sequencer..

I posted a file on Roland arranger site, and was hoping someone would try it in the BK9...

If you use Sonor (or any other sequencer with this capability), isn't there a 'batch' feature that allows you to do certain operations on a whole bunch of files at the same time?

Perhaps if it is as easy as simply removing certain sys-ex codes, and changing a particular PC#/32/00 code to a different one, maybe a script could be written to do the whole lot in one go?

GNMidi is one of the best for doing this.

The system exclusive file is a common file..(transpose), that the BK fails to recognize properly and for some reason effects the drums (piano tone).

It sounds like a sys-ex message to turn a drum track into a normal track. Then , if the PC# got sent before the sys-ex, keyboard is likely to play Piano (#1) as a default sound.

Can you copy the sys-ex message and post it here (should be fairly short)?

Perhaps I can take a look at it and see what is going on...

Diki, if you download the SMF I posted on Roland arranger...it will be the first sys ex line..open in the G70 sequencer..

OK... will do.

Fran, would you also make up a detailed Bug Report in the BK-5 Bug Forum there, please?

Include the SMF, detail it out with the Step-by-Step layout I have in the sticky, and we will try to get it to Roland's attention ASAP.

Generally, in most Sys-Ex, there is a header byte that specifies which model machine the sys-ex pertains to. What may be going on is that the BK is ignoring G70 sys-ex. Or at least, some of it.

We need to get this to Roland ASAP, as obviously, they don't want us older Roland arranger users tearing our hair out (what little is left!) when all our edits from older machines get ignored!

Diki did you get your BK-9 yet I am waiting to hear what you think ???

There was a shipping problem (a wrong shipping address for the card that it was put on, and a snafu with the email that informed us) but I got it sorted out finally today, so I should have it mid-week.

Sadly, I am doing a six day a week playing gig at the moment, covering for a friend that got hit by a car and had his leg snapped in two, so I will have less time on it than I would normally, but I imagine I won't sleep for a couple of days when it gets in!

it is a pretty straight forward format if you have had or played a BK-5 you will be ok you will like the Keybed it plays nice.

Looking forward to your analysis Diki!

I just want to hear you play it, Diki.

Gary

Shipped... in transit.

Diki ... Best wishes for a full recovery for your friend ...

Always exciting getting a new arranger

Best of luck Diki,

A bit surprised that you are getting a BK9. I own a

BK7 which I use mainly as an accordion expander. A lot of the

styles in the BK7 are the same as the G70 and I would assume

therefore the BK9 will have a lot G70 styles, though very much

lighter.

I half expected you to get a Yamaha PSR950, along with your G70

you would have a massive variety of styles and sounds to feed

off.


I expect to buy a smaller arranger eventually, sitting on the

fence at the moment, though looking at Korg PA600 and Yamaha

PSR950 as options. I will hang on to my G70 as well.

Frank

The Chord Sequencer and the Audio loop keys sold it to me.

Without those, I could have been OK with my G70's. But both of those bring a dimensionality to solo playing that I can't get from the G70 (or anything else in that price range and keybed size).

You generally find, each new arranger from the same manufacturer, only a few brand new styles. About 30 or so for the BK-9, and I doubt too many of them will be stuff I'll use. Most are in that small ballpark. Word is, though, that the BK-7 and G70 styles in it have been revoiced and balanced for the extra sounds, kits and MFX's in the BK-9, so there might be more to it than meets the eye.

Diki,
check the SW version ASAP, first production units have v1.04 installed on,
latest have v1.05

v1.05 seems not to be still available on web,
but in Italy, Roland Italy is providing it on demand.
(so you can eventually ask to RUS)

However it should be available on roland.com within some days.

Usually, you don't see a lot of important new features in the initial OS updates (within a month or so from launch). Those are usually bugfixes. But we often see something a few months after launch that adds something significant, possibly something that was in the works during development, but they couldn't get bug free before the launch date.

At the moment, I think the three things I could do with added (or returned!) to the BK-9 OS are:

1) Mark/Jump for SMF's (what idiot axed that?)
2) Dynamic Arranger (ditto) Where playing harder or softer brought the accompaniment up or down with you.
3) Taking the audio loops off the keys, and allowing the FC-7 to trigger them.

Those three would make me a VERY happy camper.

I would like to see the mark/jump it is one of the best things about the G70 and I use the same thing on my Tyros 4 it make a big difference if you are a performer and play a lot of Dances like I do.

LOOK'S LIKE NO DELIVERY YET?

Having recently first added a Roland E50 and later on a Roland BK-7m to my homeset consisting of the Korg PA800 and the Yamaha PSR750 I have to say a lot of things have fallen into place for me. But let me first of all say thanks to the " four D's" (Deane, Don, Donny and Diki) for their advice, styles, etc.

Having played and programmed a lot on the Roland during their G800/G1000 period I was lured away by Korg on the outset of this century. The styles on the G800/1000 never did it for me and though I sorely missed the Dynamic Arranger I thought Korg did a much better job with 4 to 16 bar accompaniment sections, and more like a real live band sound. The rest is probably history but I am telling all this because until my purchase of the BK-7m a few weeks ago I never ever understood why folks like Fran and Diki were so over the moon with their Roland gear. Well I guess I know why now, which is not to say I am going to hang on to the BK7m, on the contrary it should be gone tomorrow night!
In most communiciations with Diki or Fran it has become apparent that they almost exclusively use the acc. section for the drums/percussion and bass. And as such I can honestly say that compared to my yamaha but even to my Korg they are into a class of their own. Vastly superior to Yamaha, at least to my PSR750 and slightly superior to my Korg....I have said it.
I still am not too chuffed about may of their styles and I think the omission of the Dynamic Arranger (which Diki is trying to get their attention for again) is really stupid. It was one of the best features on the Roland arrangers. The reason that I am not hanging on to the BK7m is mainly due to the fact that with chronic headaches already I do not need a module that gives even the healthiest of persons a headache!
I know I should have realised it before and no damage has been done, I am sure someone with an eletric piano and no arranger is going to be very happy with it, but let's face it to even begin to think and program it is worse than a woman's nine months of pregnancy !!!
So back to square one, Korg and Yamaha. And the odd bit of playing the acoustic guitar, I ain't complaining

regards,
John

I believe you have nailed it right there, John... Different people like different arrangers because all of them do something well, something not so well, and what YOU personally need is usually very different to what THEY need!

I know my needs in an arranger are the basic rhythm section (bass, drums and guitar) to be as live as possible. The rest, I really want to play myself if I possible can! And, of all the rhythm section, the drums are the most important. That's why I go for the Roland stuff, who have had this nailed for a long time, and only keep getting better! I admit, Yamaha's guitars are a bit better, but the drop off in the drums is too radical for me to abide. I envy those Mega guitar sounds and patterns, but I CAN live without them... Can't live with those wimpy drums, though!

Arranger players are SUCH a wide demographic, from One Finger chord players pecking out a one finger melody, to pros who want as little machine as they can get away with. To me, at least, there's no surprise that each of us is so attached to one manufacturer or another, as each of them tends to address the needs and approach of only one kind of player BEST... Sure, they'll all do in a pinch, but usually, one is better than another when you KNOW what you are looking for!

On the whole, being very familiar with my G70, I have little problem editing the BK's. It simply takes longer, because of the loss of the touch screen. But all the functions are there (with the noted loss of the Mark/Jump and Dynamic Arranger), it just takes more navigation to get there. But compared to most non-touch screen arrangers, it's about the same. John's headaches aren't a result solely of the Roland, he gets them anyway... At least, he gets them editing ANYTHING for any length of time..!

for people having BK-9 with v1.04,

BK-9 v 1.05 is officially available on roland.com

http://www.roland.com/products/en/BK-9/

some bug fixes,
User Dum kit function added
improvement in audio key sync

best Regards!

Thanks for the info and link to the update. I've got it and will update right away.

Unboxing as we speak...

UPDATE. Friend came over with a malfunctioning PA3X, so off goes the BK-9, up goes the PA3X on the stand, and I'm in tech support hell! Upgrading his entire OS and Resources, resetting, see if that works!

I just updated my store's BK-9 with the 1.05 and all went well. The website says it might take 20 minutes but it only took about 2 minutes. I checked at the RolandUS website and they don't have the update yet. Thanks for the link.

Just messing around right now...

The Hammond sim is MASSIVELY improved. Maybe not QUITE up to Nord levels, but as good as you are likely to need live. You can now get a good grind going at lower volumes. and the drawbar foldback is now correct, and the thing doesn't take your head off as you go up, and lose it's balls as you go down. Big kudos, Roland!

Navigation is a major PITA, but I think that about all keyboards without a touch-screen! As I've said, this is likely to be my solo or duo keyboard, so I rarely do stuff on the fly there... Wouldn't want to get stuck in a live gig with this, though. At least, if I had a G70 as an alternative!

The action is liveable... keys are about 1/3" shorter than the G70. More organ/synth than piano. There's a tiny hair more 'grab' when you do palm smears, but the corners are rounded enough to not be a big issue. Surprisingly, it is sprung a hair stronger than my G70, but weight is lighter, so a rather different feel. On the whole, I think I am getting to the top of the dynamic range a bit faster than the G70, so my default velocity curve might change from medium to high. Jury is out on this, though. Touch is just one of those things you have to adjust to.

The sad thing is that there is just about enough room on the panel for the G70 touch screen. Even if it added another $500 to the price, I believe Roland have made a HUGE blunder not using this. Navigation, editing, rapid Tone selection, style selection, Performance selection, all of this is MUCH slower than my G70. As are all non-touchscreen arrangers.

The included music rest is HUGE... but in the wrong way, IMO. It's quite a bit wider than the G70 rest, but no taller. So sheet music is still unsupported for half its height, tending to let it fold over backwards. But there's room for a triple page now... Me, I'd rather have enough height.

The USB slot is back in the recessed, hidden slot, covered by a door (like the Prelude). Far better than the BK-5's open slot. Not only does this protect the stick (and the delicate USB slot) from accidentally getting whacked, it's also 'out of sight, out of mind' for any light fingered kids (of all larcenous ages!).

The weight is amazing. Just about enough to keep it planted on the stand, but possibly a bounce issue if not supported fairly well out to the edges.

Not sure I like ALL the Factory Songbook entries coming up with Bass Inv ON... Hopefully there's a way to defeat that.

I'm afraid I have spent little time so far... worked until my gig on my friend's PA3x (seems he has a USB bus issue, got it updated with the latest OS, but then it refused to see the resources on the USB stick, or his gig backup! Ouch!), got home and messed around for an hour or so. Barely time to scratch the surface.

More as I progress.

I have to confess, I am amazed at how much reverb gets slathered onto some of the styles and presets. But not all...

Very perplexing. It's as if there is no standardized style as a template for each style creator or ROM voice creator. Some are drenched, some are quite dry. No rhyme or reason, no pattern.

Roland need some quality control!

The G70 had this issue and they updated it and removed a lot of the drenched sound. Hopefully, they listen and do it again.

Diki,
I too didn't like that the bass inversion kept coming on with different music assistants. It took me a while to figure how to turn it off. Here's how to do it:
1) push menu
2) go to global and push enter
3) scroll down to Performance Hold and push enter
4) Scroll down to Bass Inversion and push enter
5) use the wheel and select "on" (off is how it comes from the factory)
6) Push Exit
7) MOST IMPROTANT STEP: Scroll down to the bottom in global mode and go to "save global" and push enter, and then use the wheel to select "yes" and push enter. Now you are done. First time I forgot to save the global and next time I turned on BK-9 the bass inversion hold was back to off!
Also, each time you turn on the BK-9 the bass inversion light will come on at power up. Just turn it off once and it won't come on anymore.
I hope this helps.

I knew about that, but thanks, George, It is also where you hold other things like preferred fingering types.

Trouble comes when you want specific songs to have Bass Inv on, but your Performances all get stuck on Bass Inv off...

I am looking forward to the Session Manager software being updated for the BK's. It had the capability of batch writing your Performance parameters to any or all Performances you want. And leaving out the ones you didn't.

I am afraid that I really have to call Roland out about the dual display...

There comes a point where, once an arranger is complex enough, you simply cannot do what you need to to it for live purposes with merely a dual screen, a rotary encoder, and a pair of Inc/Dec buttons. The BK-9 is certainly well past that point!

OK, I get it... you were trying to save a buck or two, and some flunky at Roland went 'Well, we've got plenty of the LCD screens for the BK-3/5, let's put TWO in?'. And no-one in the room stood up and told him what a moron he was! A missed opportunity, IMO.

Look at how other companies that don't have touch screens do it... they surround the screen with buttons to the left, right and underneath. This makes quickly selecting what you want to edit a snap. There are five buttons to the left and five to the right of the S950's screen (a nice high-res color one at that, you cheap SOB's, Roland!) allowing you easily to select what you want to get to. Not so with the BK-9. For every parameter on the screen, you FIRST have to scroll around the screen using the wheel to get to the parameter in the first place, THEN press the wheel to select it...

It is idiotic beyond belief. And that's just the start...

There is simply too many parameters you need to get to in a hurry for the tiny displays, and things quite important get buried in sub menus, inside other menus. No chance whatsoever of getting to them live, while you play. Even exiting these sub menus can be a pain (although a held 'exit' will get you back to the top level in one go) if you want to do something further.

Let's take a simple example. Let's say you want to change the chord recognition type from Intelligent to Pianostyle (without calling up the piano mode - let's say you want to do it on a Rhodes, not acoustic)...

First, you hit the Menu button. You'd think that the Performance edit would be the first thing on the screen, at the top, where it gets immediately selected. No... the External Lyrics on/off switch..! Who the hell messes with that, much? You have to turn the wheel to navigate down to the Performance Edit selector, and then hit the wheel to open it up. You've now got a choice of 13 pages relating to the Performance settings! Arranger settings is #7 on that list, so you have to scroll down seven pages (careful not to overshoot!), and then hit the wheel AGAIN. You now have a choice of nine more settings. Fortunately, Arranger Type is #2, so at least you can see it! so you scroll down again to that, hit the wheel again (that is Roland's idea of an 'Enter' or 'Select' button ) to select the parameter, then scroll down again until you get the Pianist mode you want (there are two).

Can you believe all that?

Do you know what I have to do from the main page on my G70 to get to the same parameter? I hit the main screen in the top left area (the 'Chord' section) and there it is! Along with the zone and arranger hold chord, Intro ending alteration and Dynamic Arranger buttons, plus other buttons that link you directly To the arranger Options section, Melody Intelligent section, and One touch settings.

So, one hit on the G70's screen, eight separate things to do on the BK...

Rinse and repeat for nearly everything. As far as I am concerned, this is idiotic! Particularly as Roland, in their previous arranger series, had a perfectly great working touch screen system for an arranger (the E50) that was $1000 LESS than the BK-9. Admittedly it was B&W, not full color like the G70/E80, but functionally identical.

Basically, this relegates the BK series to something you HAVE to set up everything for every song in advance. Other than selecting styles and tones on the fly (it does have the 'Favorite Tones' section from the BK-3), best of luck getting to much in a hurry!

Now, I AM one of those kind of guys when it comes to my solo and duo stuff, so the arranger is not going back to the dealers. But Roland have missed a massive opportunity here. This is potentially, tied to a touch screen, one of the most powerful, easy to use arrangers AND live band keyboards ever made. The Hammond sim is so good, it makes it a contender against the Nord's (particularly as it does so much more than even the Stage), against Korg's stage pianos, against anything that Yamaha can muster. It's pianos are great, basically, everything in here is great. So far, no real sonic disappointments... OK, it doesn't QUITE compete with the SA2 horns and the like, but it's a LOT closer, and some of the SuperNatural stuff goes even further than Yamaha do.

This is one amazing arranger/live keyboard.

Utterly let down by the decision to shave costs by axing the touch screen, and not surrounding the main screens with buttons.

Once again, Roland show their utter disconnect with musicians that play their keyboards. And their complete inability to recognize what was BEST about previous models and preserve it as they move forward. Whoever made this boneheaded decision needs to seriously contemplate seppuku!

Thanks heaps for your honest discourse on the BK-9 m8. Much appreciated, and it is now certainly off my list

I can save some money and wait for whatever comes along over the next year or two...

The Integra-7 and an A-88 is still looking a great combo, granted nothing remotely like an arranger ( but with vA.... ) but an awesome setup

Dennis

Thing is, navigation on the Integra is going to be no better than the BK. Sure, hook it up to a PC, maybe things get a bit better. But sub-menus are going to be a way of life for it. I sure wouldn't want to get stuck needing to do something to it on stage!

If you aren't really into arrangers much any more, yeah... time to look elsewhere (I kind of like the KingKorg VA for the price).

Mind you, linking arrangers and live loops and the CS offer possibilities that Roland have never had before, and I haven't had the time to dig into that much yet. Naturally, my responses are going to focus on the way I use an arranger NOW, rather than how I'll be using it in future. And, as I said, I tend to use even my G70 with everything ready to go for most songs in a solo or duo situation.

I am just frustrated that what could be Roland's finest live keyboard ever has been crippled by the shortsighted screen issue.

I'd still give the BK-9 a play, if you get the opportunity, Dennis. Just for that ballsy Hammond, if nothing else! And, compared to the 73 Nord Stage, it offers SO much more (with the exception of the VA section), at $1500+ less! At least the Hammond and Piano section has most everything you need at the top level...

Okay - yeah point taken Maybe if you get time, write a small piece on how you find it after say two or three months?

I am a bit over arrangers per se, not necessarily the tools they give though. But at the moment I am really digging the return to fun playing BIAB and the Real tracks all audio stuff is giving me. No more worrying about HAVING to play as et number of notes at any time, and some of the audio guitar comping on BIAB is pretty damn nice! Not as good as a real axe-man, but way WAY better than anything ANY arranger can throw up. JMO!!!!

Back to the -9 ....perchance a longer view would give a better picture

Cheers bud,

Dennis

I'm trying my best to balance the good news with the bad..!

Naturally, it's easiest to focus on what were the best things in my G70, and instantly notice their loss. But there are many things already in the BK-9 which outperform the G70 I have noticed. The sound IS fuller, particularly in the bass section (I needed an SRX board before my G70 became acceptable in that area), the drums are massively improved (over what was good in the first place!), the SuperNatural stuff is very clever, easily recognizing legato from detached, without turning the voice into a monophonic instrument (which I believe SA2 does to the horns), and the trick acoustic guitar, able to tell the difference between single line playing (including the use of hammer on's and off's that are tied to how you play, not how HARD you play) and chords, which it alternately up and down strokes (and you have a parameter to adjust the speed of the strums) is something I've never come across on ANYTHING before!

The subtle resonance on the SN pianos is nice if you are playing solo, the selection of synth sounds and pads is immense... possible enough to do away with needing a VA if you aren't going to do a lot of knob twiddling (sounds kinda dirty, LOL), having the USB port hidden away is reassuring (I get paranoid about the idea of whacking an exposed stick in the heat of performance!), and of course, the CS makes fully using all these voices (including plenty of bending) a snap, live.

The return of the MIDI sequencer is another HUGE plus, as I tend to do a lot of pre-production and SMF preparation by recording a 'capture' of the tune using the arranger, then import to my DAW and lose the repetitive stuff, put in voice leading basslines etc., and edit the fills a bit so they all aren't identical. And so far, I have never seen a USB transfer to record on a PC that keeps the timing as tight as the internal ones do.

Don't get me wrong. I am massively impressed with the BK-9 so far. But the loss of live ease of use has dampened my joy a hair, particularly as I would have LOVED to go out and gig live using that Hammond sound!

I guess nothing is ever perfect!

Cool - I think this is one I would definitely need to try before I buy. I might see if the folks I deal with (about 400 miles away) will send me a demo if I pay freight....

Dennis

Diki, if you can check the SMF play with the file I posted...Do the drums play correct...? I would like to know they corrected this problem reading the G70 edits..

Also, my insider swears they used the JunoStage keybed...What do you think? Ron Johnson thinks it is a better keybed than the JS..

Do you think Roland just figured everything is going the Ipad way, and rather than put in a touch screen, just promote their software to mate with the Apple pad? Then the expense of having a large touchscreen would fall to the user/consumer (having to purchase an Ipad) rather than to them in manufacturing. Of course, they already HAD a working touchscreen and a software tweak would have mad it work with the BK I'm sure....that's the hardest part to understand.......

That makes sense Sparky, but afaik, the iPad apps have very little in the way of editing or other functions.

Diki would be better palced, but that's what I have read re the BK series iPad extensions.

Dennis

The iPad apps Roland have out now communicate with the BK's strictly through MIDI, so the only things they can affect are parameters with MIDI controls, which is very little of the OS, in truth. And, of the things that DO have sys-ex, it doesn't really communicate with them either (I'm thinking MFX parameters, or the like).

So, at the moment, there is absolutely no way to run the entire arranger from an iPad as if it were the touch screen that is sorely missing. You can do some very basic functions, most of which are already on the front panel. It also simplifies naming and selection of Performances, SMF's and MP3's, and reorganizing the Performance Lists, a sort of DB function.

Strangely, though, one of our members at Roland-arranger.com wrote an entire G/E series editor that ran on the PC. Pretty much every parameter could be accessed via USB, and although it was written to be more of an editor than a replacement for the touch screen (didn't need to do that!), with some intelligent design and a touch tablet, it could have been.

Well, he's working on an editor for the BK series as we speak. So far, without Roland's help, much. He also thinks he might be able to port it from the PC to an iPad app in the future. But I'm thinking, if it can do that, it might be possible to also design it so it works as a touch screen for the entire machine... At least it might be a possibility.

So, in fairness, I think it might also be possible for Roland to do the same. And, of course, they have full and comprehensive data on how the thing works, and have the capabilities to add hooks into the OS if the iPad app doesn't run it entirely live (there might need to be some background caching of the BK-s status, for instance).

But whether they will will be another issue. Me, I'd happily pay good money for that, rather than it being a free iPad app as the current disappointing lot are. REALLY good money! And, to be honest, if it ran the BK's like the touch screen did on the G/E series, I cannot imagine a single BK owner not buying it either..!

You can buy a refurb iPad Mini (which has a screen much larger than the original touch screen on the G/E's) for as little as $270. $329 new... Let's be generous and say $100 for the software. So, another $400 or so onto the price of the BK-9 (if you haven't already got an iPad, like I don't!). That STILL puts the whole thing at $800+ less than we paid for new G70's.

That's a bargain!

Roland... want to make some easy money...?

Fran, let's move this to the Roland-arranger Bug Forum. I have started a topic here: http://www.roland-arranger.com/smf/index.php?topic=2015.0

Yes, you have a problem with that file.

I can't recall playing the Juno Stage... so can't honestly compare.

Seen it yet, Fran?

BTW, Dennis... If you really like those BIAB guitar loops, nothing to stop you rendering them to audio, importing the loop, and then playing it alongside an SMF (maybe made from the arranger play section) of the tune, using the Key Audio feature.

The sequencer will record when and where you trigger the loops, and save it to the SMF, so it can be hands free. Admittedly, you could also render the entire tune to audio and use that (chopped into its component sections for rearranging freedom as I told on another thread), but this would allow you to mix and match, if you wanted.

Tie that to a sub 21 lbs weight (9kg or so for you metric boys!), and you are looking at a VERY powerful live keyboard that can go way beyond simple arranger play or SMF playback with a minimal freight overhead..!

hmmm...now there's an idea. I hadn't quite thought of it that way, but that would be certainly do-able.

Dennis

How are you using those BIAB Real Tracks now, Dennis? Directly out of the laptop, or are you transferring them to some keyboard first?

I use them using BIAB direct and using the Conductor tool, which allows seamless jumps to ANY section of the song. I also use the Jukebox tool which allows the stacking of selected tunes to play at a gig.

Even though it is 100% audio (bass and drums included), the jump between parts is smooth with no audible glitching. I only use jumps if some bright spark decides they want to dance JUST as the coda starts

Sorta makes it a pseudo-arranger

All of the tunes on my SC pages were done using it. No midi at all.

So with the Audio feature of the BK - well there are possibilities in that direction.

Probs the main thing is being able to get away from using VSTi keys - if they are as good as you say on the BK.

The other thing I am hesitant about IS the keybed. The A70, though old has a lovely action (very similar, if not the same as the G70, even with the slightly concave key surface) and from what I am reading the BK bed would be somewhat of a come-down. And before you suggest it , I am NOT a twin keyboard sort of person.

Dennis

Me neither, Dennis. Yes, the action is quite a step down from the A70/G800/1000/70 one. But that action is pretty heavy... accounts for some of the flab on the G70! By its nature, a heavy action needs a stronger case to support it... Overall, I can live with the action. It has none of the springy sponginess that Yamaha PSR's have, is pretty crisp and comfortable. I just mainly have to get used to the keys being a bit shorter and more organ/synth like than piano sized and smoother. Not sure I could live with a PSR, but I can live with this.

If you are already a laptop kind of performer, then no, probably the BK isn't going to offer MUCH that outperforms the best VSTi's. But OTOH, there's bombproof operation and polyphony, and a very integrated soundset, which is always the weak part about using VSTi's.

Seems you already have a good workflow going, Dennis. If you are comfortable with the laptop/controller thing, I'm not sure how anything is going to better it for you. Some stuff might make it a bit easier, but at the cost of flexibility and a bit of sonic loss.

Now all I need is a Karma iPad app that allows instrument definitions from Roland to plug into the BK!

Man a Karma iPad app - that would be the dogs, well , you know

I agree that having bombproof ops, plus it all integrated has a LOT of appeal.

As you say, I do have it all as a fairly smooth system, and having VSTi's (especially for the EP's) is a pleasure to play, but there is always at the back of ones mind the tiny niggle of it crashing halfway through when you have the audience either packing the floor, or hanging on every note (VERY rare )

As to keybed, well your thoughts there on that are well met...If it has that certain "firmness" about it, then the slightly shorter key length should not present a real problem.

As long as it is not like the ghastly action of the PSR's and even the T-line and Motifs... and you have stated it does not, then I will try and get one down for a trial

The hard part is convincing the other half

I personally hate the BK5 action. I can't play with this keyboard.

I prefer 1000 times the low end psr keyboards.

They have the advantage of being very well scaled to the velocity.

If I play a little bit harder, it will sound the same amount a little bit louder.

With the BK5, playing softly will give you a very soft sound, and then playing a little bit harder is still soft. And playing harder is switching to a too high velocity.

Dan we are talking about the BK-9 here, but do you know if the BK-5 keybed is the same as on the BK-9?

Dennis

Bk-5 keybed is not even close to the Bk-9 key bed.

cool, thanks.

SuperNatural BK-9 sounds...

Overall, very nice. Somehow, the G70 GrandX seems missing or altered in some way, but the new SN pianos are nice.

Yes, the SN section has got some cool stuff in it, especially the guitars, mallets, Rhodes, pianos etc. The horns are a mixed bunch. The trumpet is very clever, with an octave doit up on the up bend, and a fifth lip down and growl on the down bend, and the ability to be polyphonic or monophonic, depending on how you play and phrase. Nice as well is that you get a lip-up up to a maj3rd, but then a clean jump from a 4th and up.

The sax, OTOH isn't, to my ears, as successful as the SA2 Yamaha sax. It does the same polyphonic/monophonic trick as the trumpet, but not to my ears as well. Plus no intervalic gliss up's or down's. The bend as well is not as successful. It will run up or down a variety of scales and modes, in any key, but the link between what you are playing and these parameters is missing. So you have to preset the scale and key in advance. The smart thing would be to feed it the Chord Recognition NTA, and let it do a gliss on whatever scale you are playing. I think there's a quick way to switch between a bend and a gliss, but haven't figured it out yet.

The clarinet also has the same issues. I give this one to Yamaha, too. Same with the flute. The overblown switch is nice though. Can you say Jethro Tull?!

But for Roland's first attempt at an arranger with SA type abilities, on the whole, pretty good. I haven't even talked about the guitars, which are amazing... Hammer on/off's by PLAYING them not hitting the samples harder! Again, good recognition of single lines vs. chords. And the trick where sustained repeated chords get alternately strummed up and down is a new one on me. The jazz guitar has the same kind of tricks, and now I'm starting to see why I thought the jazz guitar demos posted on this thread http://www.synthzone.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/366590/New_Amazing_Demo_Roland_BK_9#Post366590 were so good. It really IS uncanny how it interprets what you play to achieve good guitar idiomatic picking and strumming.

So, all in all, 8/10 score for Roland's first SA2 type stuff in an arranger. Reeds could be a bit better, but that is the toughest thing to pull off.