As a previous owner of a Yamaha PSRS700 and a Korg PA500, it was always hard work for me to create new orginal styles. In this demo by the ultra-talented Bert from Yamaha, he creates a new style (one variation) in what seems to be 15 seconds(approx. 6 mins). Is this "new" Yamaha technology or has it always been this easy?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKPaMVjJqqQ

He's extremely talented, and he only created drums, bass, and piano for one variation. To create a full band style with 3 intros, 4 variations, 4 fills, 3 endings, and a break, that would be pretty time consuming.

But he did make it look a lot easier than it's ever looked before.

Ofttimes you may only want to change a part of a style...let's say the Piano part in Chord 1.

You can do what Bert has done and remove and play in another piano part in one section or all parts of a style, or you can use the Style Assembly section of Style Creator and replace the piano part with one from another style. It doesn't even have to be a piano part; you can substitute in a guitar (or any other) part if you wish, and you don't need to create (edit) all sections if you don't want to.

I usually teach the latter method (Assembly) on follow-up clinics...it is very easy to do, especially if your chops aren't quite up to Bert's level. You can also use step record in place of Real Time play.

Like anything else, the more you practise and experiment, the better results you will get.

Ian

All this is nothing new it's on many Yamaha arrangers its the same method used multitracking on any workstation sequencer,...BUT, let me say if you are not talented enough to be able to record all the parts almost perfectly results will vary BIG TIME. Yes it can be done on yamaha, korg, ketron, roland, in different ways,..is it easy NO!....can it be done? Yes, of course, with practice and experience. These are on-board style creating features should make everyone KEEP their arranger KB's forever as why not?...you can just keep making custom styles using something like what is shown in the demo, right? hey give it a try and see wheat do you got to lose?....have fun!

If you have a Yamaha arranger keyboard, the best advice I can give anyone is to go to the PSR-Tutorial forum, then download all the style libraries. Better yet, purchase their style library CD(s), which will provide you with nearly 50,000 styles, many of which are fantastic.

Cheers,

Gary

In reviewing the demo, I did notice Bert say that he was programming (entering music data) in the key of "C". Seems like this was the same on the PSR S700. Programming in any key other than "C" major was a nightmare, if my memory serves me correctly.

I was hoping Yamaha had made some new workflow enhancements along with the great features of the new PSR series. I sometimes use an arranger keyboard for music creation... Anything I can create on an arranger gives me unlimited potential for live situations.

I will be sure to do that. Thx.

The simple answer is yes it's that simple if you can imagine a style and play the component parts. That's what I do and I have not needed to by another arranger in nearly 8 years

Don't be fooled Manufacturers like style creation to be difficult as a financial sales stand point,....this in turn makes buyers jump at every chance to buy NEW releases, which in turn = more sales & money. If players hold on to units too long sales stay stagnant & that's a bad thing.
Selling KB's is a business first and foremost.
Good Marketing & Hype is the life line. I know I have a dismal track record for switching KB's but I hope that 8 yrs from now I still have my Pa3x time will tell. People do change.

I get your drift, Spalding. What is also really cool is that the styles I made back on my old PSR-3000, S900, S910 will work in my new Tyros4 with very little, or no tweaking.

However, with the T4, I can now use SA/SA2 sounds in the styles, so I can also update those old styles with these great new voices by doing a style revoice, which is very easy to do.

Style creating/editing/assembling is something I use almost everyday...the styles I use while performing are all my own creations using factory styles as a basis.

I have feeling the Tyros4 will be my last big investment in arranger instruments, and it's Style Creator facility will ensure that my keyboard will always be able to adapt to suit whatever I happen to be playing, both now and in the future.

Ian

Yes Ian. The only thing that would tempt me to change now is better
Sounds. To me right now the tyros 4 is the clear winner in terms of sound . But it's not a great workstation in the way that I need it to be , sampler sequencer and full inboard editing. If it had it would probably be my next and last keyboard purchase for the next ten years. Right now my korg like diki's g70 does most things incredibly well for all the musical environments I use it for
, but style creation is the most under used feature on all arrangers and more should be done to help folks fully use and explore these unique instruments.

I tried Style creating from scratch as per the video, and it was a once and done thing for me. Way too difficult. I'll stick with editing current styles, or even better try the thousands of free Yamaha styles available across the Web universe.

Remember the video demo showed only one variation of a style, and to create a full blown style complete with intro, fills, endings, OTS etc. is very time consuming and difficult. Fun for some, but not for me. Maybe the cost of purchasing a style might be justified after all.

Hi



... and only 3 instruments... (drums, bass, piano)
There are 5 more patterns to add (one more chord2, a pad, two phrases, and perhaps another percussion)

Plus alternative chord-dependent patterns...

The video is a gimmick; not that easy... Not at all...

Jørgen

I hear what you say but styles are simply too busy with over arrangement . A drum , percussion bass and guitar string or horn pattern for most purposes is more than. Sufficient . There is a saying give a man a fish and he will eat for the day. But teach him how to fish and he can eat for a life time. Stop relying on the push of a button to purchase styles and take the time to learn how to make styles. Most styles you will purchase are simple re workings of existing styles anyway.

Hi

I hear what you say too...
Some styles are over arranged, I agree... but I guess this has lot to do with personal taste... ;-)

Jørgen

Again, for me, making a style from scratch is more like work than fun. I wish I had the patience, but i tried, and found it's "Just not my cup of tea"

Maybe some kind of workshop for style making would perk my interest, but in the mean time, I'll remain lazy

Creating a style requires a lot of time and effort to get that style to sound the way you wish. I've created about a dozen styles, all of which took more than a day's work. It can be somewhat frustrating for some, challenging for others, and downright impossible for folks that either do not read, or do not comprehend the instructions very well. For those individuals I recommend either modifying onboard styles to fit your needs, or looking for suitable style files at the PSR-Tutrial or other similar sites.

Cheers,

Gary

Most users want to create a style for a specific song, so the best way is to get a Midi file of it (Choose one you like the sound of) and make up your style using this.

Another option

Bill

Yes, I've done this, and it works. I used Jorgen Sorensen's Midi to Style program, which does all the basics, but you still have to do a fair amount of tweeking and tuning to get that perfect style for a specific song.

Cheers,

Gary

Hi Gary

Right.
midi2style gives a functioning "raw" conversion (mostly).
Because software have no ears, you will have tweak voices, volumens etc. to suit the human ear.
Next comes personal taste... style complexity, number of instruments, balance between instruments, etc. etc.

Sorry folks, creating a style is rather easy. But creating a good/excellent/outstanding style requires hours of work...

Jørgen

That may be true for your purposes, but that may not address the needs of many others. Some like busy, full styles. ( I sometimes do) You still get the ability to modify styles to your taste - choices are a good thing.

+1 for FULL styles......
that's what variations are for more or less.

Dave,

I think you once said something along the lines of "I only need maybe 10 styles and be able to play almost any song."


I don't remember your exact quote, and the exact styles, (maybe you could clarify) but the more I think about it...you may be right about that.

In any case, as Gary has pointed out, there are so many styles available, especially for Yamaha, I only ever tweak from those I like the best, and never found the need, or desire, to create a style.

Larry, I DID say something to that effect. I have a user bank filled with "bread and butter" styles that allow me to play almost anything in my dance repertoire. Specialty numbrs are another topic, but for basic, generic tuneage - I have had great success with a little tidbit Roland came up with 25 years ago called the "EZ Eight". It was an expansion card for the early E series arrangers and here is what it had:
swing2,8beat3,16beat3,disco3,waltz4,2beat,latinbeat and slrock2.
I've modified it a little over the years, but name me 10 songs, and I bet I can play 8 or more wth just these beats and my manual bass hand with RH piano chords.

Before the knocker box came into being, (Or style engine as it’s called today) players used to be able to play any song anybody wanted with no problems, whether on piano or organ, so to say you need masses of styles to play a large repertoire of songs is poppycock.

If you do use multiple track styles, make them sound like you, as otherwise you will sound the same as everyone else out there. (Remember great players are known for THEIR style of playing, not the keyboards style)

Also remember that styles are there to enhance YOUR playing not the keyboard manufacture, which is why they are secondary (And some would even say irrelevant) to the performance.

Another point of view

Bill

I have about 50 styles that I created using "Style Assembly" that are the basis of most of my tunes. These styles have the Intros converted into playable Variations and/or stop/fills and comprise the usual 8 Beat, 16 Beat, Rock Ballad, 6/8 Ballad, Waltz, Swing Waltz, Jazz Ballad, Big Band etc., and all are unique in some way from the factory styles.

I try to avoid using "song specific" styles...that's why the instrument we play is called an "arranger", so I try to put my own spin, or "arrangement", on a tune if possible.

I also have a collection of "donor" styles; styles that have unique strumming, arpeggios, phrases, pads, bass lines, percussion tracks, and I draw from these to use in creating something fresh, but still having a recognizable stamp on it.

"FreePlay" styles, both my own, and Yamaha's versions, are a nice change from drum pattern based arrangements.

I've never considered using styles a crutch...they're part of the art, and my palette of backing sound colors can range from the basics to a full blown orchestra, depending on my mood and/or what I am trying to present to the listener.

Many years of playing the Electone organ and not using styles, but simply a drum track, bass pedals and left hand chording/phrasing, has taught me to be expressive with the very basics, but I also like the both the freedom and restrictions of playing within/around a style.

We don't have to sound like someone else who has the same make or model arranger keyboard...sometimes, all it takes is a bit of exploring into the instrument's style creator (even a simple "re-voicing")and a little imagination.

Ian

I guess I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum when it comes to styles. I want that song I perform to sound as close to the original as possible. I want that intro to be spot on, the variations to accentuate the song as it progresses toward the end, the right hand instruments to have the effects used in the original song, and the ending to be as close as possible to the original. The only thing different, of which I have absolute control, will be my vocals.

Last night, under the stars at the marina Tiki Hut, I performed for nearly three hours, during which time I provided the audience with a huge variety of music. When I utilized the keyboard's onboard styles I played my own intros and endings, performed a half-dozen Jimmy Buffett tunes, none of which used the same style. Each style was unique to that song.

When I performed At Last everyone knew what song I was playing after the first seconds of the intro. Same was true with Bad Leroy Brown, Stand By Me, New York - New York, Old Time Rock & Roll, etc..., they're all distinctive. I don't want every cha cha to sound the same as the one I played an hour ago - I want that variation outside the variations within the style itself.

There are a huge number of performers down here in Paradise, all competing for the meager dollars paid in the lowest pay scale area of the United States. Many play for $50 a night - yep, 3 to 4 hours for $50. Most are guitar strummers with a small, tinny sound system, a Shure SM58 mic, the guitars are usually acoustic with some sort of pick-up, and most of them sing. They tend to perform a variety of songs, but after 20 minutes, each of those songs begins to sound the same as the last song they played. The reason behind this is they tend to use the same strumming technique with each and every song. Granted, they'll change the beat a bit, and some use drum machines, but in many respects it's like the guys using arranger keyboards and the same dozen styles for every job.

So, last night I began playing at 6 p.m. to an audience of just 2 people. On this particular evening there were bands playing everywhere on the island. There was lots of competition on the island's music circuit last night, some that had been heavily advertised. While the night began to look like a practice session, within a half-hour I had 50 people at the Tiki Hut, all of which said they had began their evening at other locations. Most stayed until 9 p.m. and said they wished they had come earlier. There were lots of great comments this morning about the quality of the music and the variety, most asking if I would be performing again next Saturday evening. I love my job.

Gary

I can see where having the style as close to the one of the song can be important, especially if you are doing clubs, so in that situation, I'd say you'd probably be more in the majority, Gary.

I stopped doing bars and clubs over 20 years ago, and probably because I'm a non-drinker (and non-smoker, although smoking is outlawed here in bars), I grew tired of the whole scene, and quite frankly, do not miss it at all.

My specialty has been background music, and amateur video soundtracks; it suits me to a "tee", and my arranger fits the role perfectly.

However, I can't imagine only using a dozen styles for a restaurant job, unless it was to make a CD, where there would be a dozen songs, but, because I do not do vocals, and play instrumentalss, I'll try and give standard tunes a different spin, including sometimes, different chord progressions (I rarely change the basic melody, except when improvising solos) and of course, using a different style, sometimes even changing the time signature by substituting, for example, a Slow Jazz Ballad for a 3/4 English Waltz.

For some reason, it all works very well for me, although, I must say, I am very careful with my arrangements and spend a lot of time getting them right, much the same as I do with my own styles.

But, I do understand very well, your situation, Gary, having been there myself, and having watched people scamper to the dance floor immediately upon hearing the familiar intro to Seger's "Old Time Rock And Roll", or Van Morrison's "Brown Eyed Girl" I really do get the importance of song specific styles.

I just don't use them nearly as often.

Ian

Well said joso

I'm with Dave, .....I have a well chosen and edited "Easy 25" that I use and can do just about any song with these personally customized styles....
no need for any more.

Bottom line about programming your own styles is, can you actually play everything on keyboards well? I mean, good drum parts with dynamics and feel, bass parts with swing and snap, guitar parts that sound like guitar players, horn lines that would fool a horn player?

If the answer is no, don't waste too much time (unless you are having fun anyway!) on it.

If you are from the old school, and used to do your own sequencing of whole songs, played all the parts, did the drum programming, and they came out pretty well, then probably yes... it's doable.

But probably the fastest way to create fresh sounds for yourself is to try mixing and matching. Grab Drums from one style, the bassline from another, horns from something else, mix and match... I know Ian is a big fan of this.

Admittedly, there's a REALLY cool feature on Roland's (the older E/G series, anyway) called Cover Tools, where with one button, the entire selection of sounds of the style could be changed from say rock band to acoustic jazz, or Latin to Techno. Even if the results weren't perfect every time, whenever something cool shows up, you can Freeze the parameters and save it as another style, then use this in Mix and Match on other styles too.

I really regret that Roland dropped this feature on the BK series. Once again, Roland demonstrate they can't recognize a useful function even if they invent it themselves! I really sometimes wonder if Roland fire their entire Arranger R&D staff every 3-5 years, to make sure there is NO continuity!

But Cover Tools combined with Mix and Match can stretch a LOT of variety out of even just a few good styles...

I would have to say YES.., it really is that easy. Creating styles isn't as difficult as many seem to think, and Bert IMO showed how easily it can be done.

Are you going to be able to create styles as good as the presets? Most likely not, but that doesn't mean you cannot create really good sounding styles. You just have to LEARN how to use the keyboards style sequencer.

I see people commenting on how Bert just created ONE variation. Creating the next three variations of the first is not a difficult task. Keep in mind that there are features ALREADY BUILT INTO your arrangers designed specificually to simplify style creation, and speed up the process. You can create one variation and simply copy the parts of that one variation to the next and make changes to it. The ability to copy your parts is a HUGE time saver.

Don't like your timing, well tackle it with quantizing. Don't want it to sound "robotic".., just lower the quantize strength. You have trouble making the guitar tracks, well copy the guitar part from a preset style and BAM! it's done.

The tools are already there in your keyboard. You just have to learn how to use them. The most difficult part of style creation would likely be the fills, but it just takes a little practice to get those done.

IMO the biggest benefit of the style sequencers (if your board has it) is the ability to swap parts between styles, and copying previously recorded parts. Swapping parts saves you a lot of time because many styles have guitar/bass/chord/drum parts that cover most everything, and you can save some serious time using parts from other styles that would normally be difficult to play from the keys. Plus you can even spice up a style using a part from another style that you wouldn't normally consider using. The options are endless.

I suggest that if you really want to record your own styles.., dig out that manual, blow the dust off of it, and start reading You'll be surprised at what all you can do, and may not be aware of tools that are already in your arranger that are there to HELP you and make the job EASIER

Right on the money, Squeak. Copying from your first created Variation does save a lot of time.
My first foray into style creation was when the tools were primitive compared to today's Style Creators...I had to play in the parts, as there were no other options.

It is surprising how efficient part swapping can be...I even take parts out of a Swing type style, and use them in an 8 beat, using the Style Creator's Groove function to make the parts match up.

And that very same Groove function is also pretty handy in changing 8 beats to swings and shuffles, or 16 beat or even 6/8 feel...and you don't have to do all the style parts, so you can have one style start in straight 8 beat and change to a swing feel on certain variations, and one intro/ending swing while another doesn't...there are lots of possibilities.

The fills, although sometimes hard for most people can easily be procured from an existing donor style that is close, and then edit to suit your needs.

The beauty of using Style Assembly (or part swapping, if you prefer) is that the parts are already set for note range, triggering style, and full chord recognition, which is why I tend to use it more than playing in the parts...let's face it, there are hundreds (if not thousands) of styles we can use to base our new style on.

Like any other feature on the keyboard, the more you use style creator features, the more comfortable (and more adventurous) you become with it.

Ian

PS...what keyboards are you presently using?

Ian, my arranger is the PSR-S700. My synth is the Roland Juno-Di. I've moved away from the all in one synth workstation and now use my Juno-Di with a DAW. It's also used as a midi controller too. The Di covers A LOT of music and coupled with a DAW, it's a great composition tool.

I also use the Beat Thang Virtual for creating hip hop and other modern styles. The Di makes a great midi controller for this. Plus I still have my trusty old Roland RS-70. We're attached at the hip I guess. I think I've had that synth now for at least 10 years. Its got a broken key that's taped down, and I still use it.

My answer is yes, this is doable for me.

Let me say it this way...I might not be any different than any of you other than I haven't lost the desire to create new styles, songs, harmonies, melodies, lyrical phrases, solos and etc. I will continue to play even if I never sold a record, album, CD, MP3 or whatnot. Music is so vast and wide, there is always something to learn or a new way of doing things in music.

Right now I mostly use sequencers for new music creation but I am not as proficient with it as I would like to be. I use arranger keyboards both with other musicians and by myself in live settings. There is no good substitute for playing with other good musicians...but in the past my arrangers would manage the job. Making more of my own styles would help fill that void...and my own styles don't show up late, call in sick, or demand more money than they previously agreed to.

While growing more and more familiar with arranger keyboards, I don't want to settle for just playing someone else's styles or music . In the past I have played drums, guitar, bass guitar, and a few other instruments. Even some of the best styles leave something to be desired. Whether you want to further customize a style or create a new style, arranger keyboards have the functionality to perform the job. BUT...For whatever reason, each of the "Big 3" have gone out of their way to make programming/creating a style a little more difficult than it should be IMHO.

Bert's demo made me believe that maybe Yamaha was adapting to a new way of thinking. I have already created many drums loops and fills with a keyboard or my Roland TD4 midi'ed into the CPU or an arranger. I am also looking to purchase a USB guitar just to further spice up some previously created styles. I just see the arranger keyboard as the best of both worlds in that I can play live and create new music without being stuck to record in a "linear" sequencer fashion.

Years back I thought about getting the EMC styles program but something made me feel uneasy about it. I don't want to spend $4000-$5000 on a Tyros or PA3x when the PSR S-950 can do most of what I need. Although I was impressed with the PA500, it never left the house. The PA600 seems impressive but will it remind me of the PA500?

Many of you prove that MOTL arrangers can be used in a live setting but I am not reading where many of you are creating original styles or new music on your arrangers...and it might not be your fault.

Maybe if making styles were easier, perhaps we'd all feel 10 years younger...

I must agree that making styles from scratch, as shown by Bert, will be beyond the skills (or interest) of many people, and also, some of us get lazy when there are lots of styles available for purchase or sharing.

At my follow-up clinics, I have managed to teach quite a few people how to use Style Assembly, which is probably the easiest way to make a style your own...some stayed with it, and others tended to drift away and become complacent and forgot how.

But it is teachable and doable.

Many of us who have worked with multi-tracking, be it via tape recorders or the later digital sequencers, can manage a bit better with putting in parts, but usually there's a section that might give us trouble, be it bass lines, drums, strums, piano parts, and this is where the swapping of parts is very helpful.

Stylemakers for the Big 3 use special sequencing programs and download..they never program on the instrument...I doubt if these programs will be made available to the public...I have actually asked about them several years ago, but was told they were not available. Of course, some people buy whole new arrangers just to get more variations of styles they already have...so I suppose style making on the instrument could be just hard enough so that only a few can manage, or bother, with them, as arrangers must be sold to keep the profits up, the company stays in business to make more new ones, and the beat goes on.

I think I've managed to get out of the loop with my present arranger, a Tyros4...and I'm planning to stay out.

I actually enjoy making my own styles, or should that be, making styles my own?

Ian

Roland really should hire you Diki. You could really pull a new arranger together for them using all the features they have used in the past. I know how frustrating it must be for you to see them abandon features that are so important to arranger players ... especially when they have already spent R&D dollars developing them.

I really hope a Roland rep reads this thread and contacts you. You certainly have my recommendation. I know you could help them develop a killer arranger keyboard.

Well you all seem impressed by Bert’s performance on creating styles; however demonstrators were showing users exactly the same way when backing units first came out in the 80s, so personally I can’t see what all the fuss is about.

Ian

The only difference between a standard sequencer and a style sequencer of the big 3, is a database of the loops, possibility’s available with the available arranger technology and mapping of sounds, (Not forgetting the program to convert Midi to the style format) so is nothing special at all. (That they won’t give it to you just creates more mystic about something any sequencer user can do)

Bill

Hi all,

On the Audya, you can start with a blank style, choose any audio drum, which automatically takes care of drum intros, endings, breaks & fills.

Next, choose an audio bass by only scrolling through the hundreds of audio loops available, slightly different one for each variation. Also automatically takes care of all fill ins.

Exactly the same with ALL the other style tracks, EVERY single one of them. Just highlight, scroll, listen & select. Hundreds of loops available for each track.

On top of this, all of those instruments will play different loops for different chords without you having to do a thing...

I bet one could create a COMPLETE Audya style in less time it takes to create only one variation on the Yamaha & it will sound super professional as the pre-recorded loops takes care of that!

Hey guys, I'm so sorry if the reality hurts (don't worry, I'm only playing with your emotions as always...)

Keep well all my friends,

Henni

Sorry to disappoint you Henni but you have been able to do this on keyboards since the 80s using Mid loops/tracks, the only difference between the Audya and others is that you also have audio loop/tracks available to you, and can easily scroll through a list rather than having to manually select it..

Bill

Hi Bill,

We're talking about what's available on the arranger, not about what could be had as add-ons or using external programs. Beeeeeg difference...

The topic header begs for an answer and then demonstrates exactly how easy it is to do on-board that specific arranger.

My answer: Yes, it has been & even a LOT easier than this example...

But Bill, don't worry my friend, by now you know me, that I love my Audya & that I always put my money where my mouth is...

Keep well my good friend,

Henni

This method sounds a bit similar to Style Assembly, where I can choose tracks from my own personal set of donor styles, each one a little different.

It sounds far easier on the Audya, but still appears to be much the same process, although it probably is quicker (and more convenient) on the Ketron since the loops are already broken up and categorized.

BTW, Henni, I was very impressed with your huge number of style conversions available (for free) on PSR Tutorial...very good work indeed, and they are great source for me as donor styles to use (in Style Assembly) to make my own "Frankenstyles" as well as being played "as is".

Making a style the way Bert does in the video requires a fair amount of playing skill and knowledge of basic music arranging as well as how to set note limits and triggering (and a few other details)...using loops, as you have described on the Audya (and somewhat similarly available on the other brands), is far easier for most arranger users/buyers.

The more familiar you are with your arranger's style making features the less time it will take to make a style...of course, that is a rather obvious conclusion.

Ian

PS...IF, and that is a big "IF", you ever had an issue with your Audya, no matter what the cause (accidentally dropping it or something spilled into it like sugary soda) what do you have as a back-up for that scenario? Have you considered another Audya (as a back-up), since quick service doesn't appear to be available where you are?

Hi Ian,

No, I've never had a spare arranger in all of my life. Hopefully I won't need one also...

But if anything should happen, I'll replace it with a new one, expensive or not. (Sure I can have it within three weeks if I have the funds) I am just THAT impressed with it. On top of this, I have faith in Darren (Ketron UK) & AJ (AJAMSONIC). I guarrantee that those two gentlemen will look after me, as they did till now.

Thank you for the compliment. I've now done the same for the Audya, so at last, they also have many, many thousands of rather good free non Ketron related 3rd party styles available to mess around with.

Keep well my friend,

Henni

Guys like Uncle Dave And Don Mason are stylists. I think that people are attracted to their interpretations of tunes, so producing a tune so it sounds exactly like the recording is not only not necessary, but not desirable.

I can see where players like these two could get by on a few (10-15) styles, with their interpretations of songs making the real difference.

Works for me!

R.

That's true Russ...they both know how to work a tune...and an audience.

Ian

Agree Russ, if it sounds exactly like the record, might as well be a (cough-cough) DJ

Yup - I always said that it was an insult when people told me I sounded "like the original". They mean well, but I know it means that they didn't listen that closely, or they would be able to get my spin on the tunes. At any rate - I'm glad they LIKE it ... I do the stylization for me too. I like to rework and revise things on the fly. It's exciting and creative.

How many people have created there on styles on Korg Arrangers?

I have lots of audiences that tell me I sound exactly like Roger Whittaker, especially when I sing "The Last Farewell." Keep in mind that I use an onboard style for that song, but I play the French horn intro as close to the original as possible. I sincerely believe it makes a big difference of whether or not the audience accepts and enjoys the song.

Some forum members say I sound a lot like Dean Martin, something that I often hear from my audiences as well. I perform a fair number of Dean Martin songs, especially those that are done in both English and Italian. Now, I don't speak a word of Italian, but I can sing those songs phonetically. It took quite a while to be able to do this, but I've been pretty lucky, I guess, because no one throws eggs and rotted fruit at me when I sing those songs in Baltimore's Little Italy and for the Sons Of Italy groups in the area.

When I perform for some Spanish speaking crowds, I always get a request for La-Bamba, which again, I sing phonetically. At one time I could speak Spanish fairly well, but because I have not had to do so for decades, I've lost that ability. With La-Bamba I play the intro using layered guitars and the onboard Cha Cha style. As soon as they hear that intro they're singing the song along with me and on the dance-floor.

I believe that this a very important aspect of being at least somewhat successful in this business. But, I could be completely wrong.

Cheers,

Gary

Hi

My conclusion: It seems like there is two "schools" of keyboardists/entertainers.

One, those who like to play songs as close to the original songs as possible. For this styles with many instruments, specialized intros/endings etc. are required.

The other, those who like to play their own interpretation of songs. For this some few generic styles will do the job.

Just an observation
Jørgen

Squeak, have you had a chance to play the new Casio XW-P1 Keyboard synth...it has a wicked sound, and a lot of control over that sound, and the price is pretty good as well.

I used their CZ-1 synth (got started on their CZ-101) on stage in bands, and this new XW-PI is every bit, or more, professionally done. I've sold my JP-8, so I may look into something more modest, but with lots of power (including on-board effects) too. Perhaps the Groove Synth, the XW-G1 would be more in your direction?.

Either way, these are great instruments...I had a quick chance on the XW-P1 and it's very well made, and from the few minutes I played it, it sounds very good indeed.

Ian

Before the knocker box was invented, if a venue wanted a full band sound, they hired a full band. No matter HOW good a pianist or organist you might be, you didn't get the gig.

Nowadays, if hired as an arranger player, they EXPECT you to provide the full sound. So if you have a large repertoire, it is expected to ALL be full sounding. Hence the need for many, many styles, so that lots of songs all using the same style doesn't become painfully obvious.

Another point of view.

Bill, just an easy question...do you primarily use the style engine(or knockerbox, if you will) in your Abacus, or do you play using left hand chords (rhythmically, or arpeggios if needed) and bass pedals, perhaps along with the drum machine in your keyboard?

We used the Electone, and Hammond that way, back in the 80's before style engines were improved to have more "realistic"(for lack of a better term) accompaniments.

Using the arpeggios in the Electone organ's knockerbox also helped fill out the background, but definitely had to be used judiciously and sparingly.

You seem unimpressed by today's style engines, so that's why I'm supposing you don't use auto accompaniment, or use it very little.

Do you have any recordings (MP3's are fine) of you playing your Abacus using your most used (or favorite) method...I would love to hear them, as I've not really heard the instrument; you can send them to me privately if you don't wish to upload here (my email is in my profile).

Ian

I tend to agree with your post. I don't want to be in denial about which group I fit into but..I also believe that music creation would require the skills of both groups.

So it is difficult for me to pick between the different arrangers when most arrangers sound great nowadays. I don't want to sell my left arm or spend $4000-$5000 just to harness the true power of the arrangers keyboards.

Since I do like Roland's BK5, Yamaha's PSR S950/s750, and Korg's PA600...the ease of creating new music/styles might be the big difference maker regarding my next purchase.

I hoped that maybe Yamaha had came up with a new approach to style creation but after downloading the Yamaha PSR-S950 Reference Manual, the PSR S950/S750 programs the same way as the S900/S700. Question answered.

Interesting Diki how the US works, over in the UK & Europe they don’t hire arranger players they just hire musicians to entertain, however if a keyboard player started using full styles they would be unlikely to get another gig, as the owners would just turn round and say what’s the point as I can just stick a tape on and get the same at a much lower price.

Another thing with the UK & Europe is that they are heavily into medleys so playing on the fly is a must, (Songbooks and full styles just get in the way) with most medleys needing to be created to what the crowd wants at the time. (They also like to see the player doing something not just pressing buttons unless he is been hired as a DJ)

If the musician wants to get something as original then they record either a Midi or Audio backing for the parts they cannot play live. (For this to work the Midi or Audio has to be played and recorded by the player, as if the backing is commercial it is easily picked up by the punters, and doesn’t go down well with them)

Finally home arranger players that use styles to sound good at home don’t what to hear pro players using full styles but prefer to hear what the musician can do with the board. (They will usually walk out or ignore the player if he uses the stuff they can play themselves at home by pressing a button)

Music also seems to be more focussed on certain styles in the US, whereas in the UK & Europe you will find both young and old enjoying styles from Big Band to Lady Ga Ga (In the same nights entertainment) as all they are interested in is being entertained by a musician who can actually play.

Bill

Ian I just use drums, bass and occasional chord track, as styles are about as much use as a used match when it comes to Heavy Rock, Synth & Experimental. (This is why I find hardware arrangers are so limited in their capabilities, and is one of the downsides of having used software systems for well over 20 years I suppose, this is also the reason I play Wersi as I can have and play all my software from one instrument in the lounge) I also dabble a bit (And it is a bit) in classical where styles are again of no use.

Bill

Thanks for the explanation, Bill.

I also have done some experimental music as well, which is why I kept my Jupiter 8 all these years, but like any old hardware synth (that's why VST's are advantageous), it requires expensive maintenance and a lot of careful handling, so I sold it to my studio buddy...at least I'll get to still play it once and awhile.

I figure I'll get something new, but it will hardware based; I'm quite interested in the new Casio XW synths, and I have had great luck with their CZ pro series in the past, so I think an XW may be a good investment. I have lots of lush Motif based pads/synths on my Tyros4, but I also would like having a relatively inexpensive (not second hand) hardware synth with knobs and/or sliders controlling the patches in real time...I can also run it through the T4's inputs enabling easy audio recording right on the arranger.

The only time I use PC-based sequencers is in my friend's studio...I like doing everything on my arranger now that it's possible.

You can still send me some of your work if you wish.

Ian

Bill, using an arranger doesn't necessarily mean it sounds just like the record. TBH, I am not honestly impressed with what arrangers do to EVER feel they sound 'just like the record'! And club owners over here hire musicians on exactly the same criteria they do in the UK (I know, having played both)... whether the entertainer 'entertains' the crowd.

No offense, but if an arranger player would get replaced by a CD, he's not much of an entertainer! The singing (instrumentalists are almost unknown over here apart from cocktail piano - I don't know of a single act in my area that is instrumental arranger) and audience interaction is what sets them apart from a CD. You might just as easily say that, if a club owner is willing to replace an arranger player with a CD, he could (for exactly the same reasoning) replace his solo guitarist/singers, or his jazz trios, or full rock bands. It would save him the same money.

I am curious. From your post, it would seem to imply that anyone that uses an arranger gets fired in Britain, for sounding fuller than a solo piano or organist. I find that hard to believe!

I agree, Diki. Good musicians are a dime a dozen everywhere. I've heard some keyboard players that are just incredible, guitar players that seem to have fingers that glide over the frets and never miss a note, sax players that never seem to take a breath, but most are not entertainers. Entertainers get the jobs because the audiences want to be entertained - it's that simple. I just talked with a restaurant owner tonight who told me it costs him about $300 for a duo to perform for 4 hours. They don't get paid $300-they get $150 plus tips. They also get free drinks and any meal on the menu. Then there's the ASCAP/BMI fees, and other miscellaneous costs. In order to recoup that $300 he must sell an additional $900 in meals and drinks, which rarely happens.

Cheers,

Gary

As I mentioned Diki it’s a difference between the US & the UK & Europe, in that punters just don’t like full on style play or button pushing, (Unless you’re a DJ) so bar owners etc. don’t hire them because they would not be able to recoup their costs.

Remember live bands, groups, solo singers etc. are fairly common in most parts of the UK these days, so punters appear to be a little more discerning then in the US. Also unless it is a concert, sitting down is not so prevalent over here with even the oldies getting up and enjoying themselves with good entertainment. (Unless it’s a restaurant if a lot of the punters are siting then the entertainer is not entertaining and needs to up his game)

Remember it’s a long time since you moved from the UK and things change a lot in only a few years, so it’s probably nothing like you remember.

Bill

Well, when I left England, there wasn't any 'automatic music' at all..! And over here in my part of the world, there's only a tiny handful playing arrangers or doing full sequenced solo gigs on keyboards. Now, back in the 80's (maybe early 90's) the solo synth player/singer did very well, but that reflected current pop music (your Thomas Dolby's and Howard Jones's, Human League, etc.), but around here nowadays, that vast majority of solo acts are acoustic guitarists doing the singer/songwriter book, etc..

In truth, what you read about here at SZ as far as gigging tends to be primarily Nursing Home entertainment, then the remainder is mostly restaurant background/foreground music, and represents only a TINY fraction of whatever 'live' music is going on in any area. The 'punters' are just as discerning over here, trust me!

The vast majority of my playing work comes from live bands, with only a minority being duo or solo work. Our 'scenes' aren't as different as you might think, with the exception of the 'working men's clubs', although I think outside my vacation destination area (on the Gulf Coast of Florida), in more working class areas, similar kinds of functions exist.

You get a very skewed picture of club entertainment in America if you only read this forum!

Diki, You're partly right about the "scene" here, in the US. But there are lots of 3-4 and even 5 piece bands working for darn near the same money the good, strong soloists are making. I average at least twice what a typical band mate would get in a small - med combo. Show bands, and good wedding bands are a different story. It's true, the more prominent club scene does not feature a soloist, but they don't pay the bands all that much either ... A strong soloist can make the same money in ONE hour at a nursing home that a club player works for FOUR hours without all the aggravation, late nights and alcohol issues.
If I wasn't teaching full time ... I'd be the nursing home guy too!

Well, the post wasn't really about pay scale... IF you can get the gig, of course you are going to make out better than a full band per player.

I guess my area is a bit different to most cities and non-vacation destinations.

I didn't mean to make it all about the money. I guess I was trying to point out that around here, at least, there is plenty or "work" for larger bands, but the question is ... is it good work?

There's almost no work in my area for larger bands - even the best wedding bands. I know several top bands that a decade ago played a wedding nearly every weekend. Now, if they get one a month they feel it's a blessing. OMB entertainers pretty much have the Baltimore restaurant circuit tied up, most making less than $150 for a 4 hour job. Some make $100 or less.

The senior circuit nursing homes, assisted living centers, retirement communities, senior centers, etc..., pay $100 to $150 per hour for OMB entertainers, arranger keyboard players that can sing, and provide a very diverse song list ranging from big band to late 70s.

So, where do the DJs and KJs fit in the scheme of things? From what I've observed they're tightly lodged in the American Legions, VFWs and animal clubs. Most of those that I know personally, tell me they're making about $150 to $175 for a 4-hour job, work weekends only and many tell me their audiences have dwindled significantly over the past two years. Some feel the KJ biz may be falling to the wayside within the next few years.

The DJs seem to be entrenched in the wedding biz, but because the competition is extremely high in this economy, their prices are falling. Just 5 years ago wedding DJs were in high demand at the larger halls and commanding prices to $1,200 for a large wedding. Now they're down to about $350 to $450 for the same size wedding at the same halls.

Just my personal observations in my part of the world. Your experiences may differ, and I would really like to read about them.

Cheers,

Gary

Well, is it still about the money to be 'good work'?

Let me think... either work with a machine or three or four other great musicians that will challenge and surprise you, push you to be better, and take you on a musical trip that you never quite know where it's going...

Hmmmmm..... Tough choice!

Yeah, especially when the mortgage payment is due

Show me the money, I can JAM with the guys on my days off!

DonM

Round here, if you can get the band work, it doesn't pay much less than the solo stuff. Unless you are doing NH and the like. Vacation areas , especially in season, can afford a decent band.

I'm sorry, but it's still more of a calling than a job, for me... I'm happy taking a cut, to play with the kind of players we have round here. You punch up that Rock1 style, or Bossa3, and it's going to be the exact same parts it was yesterday, and the day before, and the day before...

I would fire any real player on the spot that was that robotic and predictable. Arrangers are a VERY poor substitute for GOOD players.

Arrangers may be a poor substitute for VERY GOOD players, but in my part of the world the arranger players, even mediocre ones such as myself, are the folks making a good living. We work nearly every day of the week, every week of the year. Our audiences love our performances and always want more. Even down here in paradise, where GOOD musicians are a dime a dozen, the arranger keyboard players are working far more jobs. That cheesy-keyed, lightweight, plastic, cheap, silver PSR-3000 continues to provide a good living for me and my family, plus allowed me to make the trip of a lifetime.

It IS about the money! Performing with an arranger keyboard every day of the week is a JOB - not a hobby or pastime. I've worked every holiday of every year for so long that it would be difficult to recall the last time I spent ALL of Christmas Day with my family. However, it is a fun way to make a living, and I can assure everyone that in my lifetime, this is the best job I've ever had.

So, back to the original topic about styles, without which there would be no arranger keyboard. Yes, you can make them on most arranger keyboards, and with some perseverance you can make them sound as good as some of the great, third-party styles currently available. If anyone needs a song specific style for their Yamaha arranger keyboard, I suggest taking a look at the PSR-Tutorial site. If they don't have what you want, then post the song title there and request a style. Same is true for here - post the request and someone will be more than happy to provide you with a great style.

Cheers,

Gary

I just watched the video - it looks about the same as my old PSR8000 which I made tons of song styles. I suppose if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Ian.., Linda has that new Casio XW-P1 and she loves it. You might want to hit her up if you're considering it.

Thanks Squeak...I was waiting for your reply...I'll be taking some time away from the forum to work on some very interesting recording projects.

I see you've already posted about the new Korg MS-20...wow, is all I can say, especially at the that wicked price. I've worked with the original, and it is an extremely flexible and powerful mono-synth (that sells for major bucks second hand), so the new model should follow in it's footsteps judging by the specs. It's also nice to see they made the mini-keys a bit larger...the ones on their MicroArranger were horrible for my big fingers.

I'll be trying out the Casio XW-P1 this weekend.

Let me know if you try either of the new Korg synths (the KingKorg looks awesome, too) and what you think of them; I value your opinion on synths...my email is in my profile.

Ian

Yeah.., that original MS-20 is CRAZY expensive today. Last time I checked they were going for $1500 up to $2000 (and I've seen some top three grand)

I had one friend growing up that owned one. He got it back in the late 80's and still has it today. I loved playing that thing. At $599 Korg is going to kill the market with these.

I'm hoping to try both these out. I'll probably be making another trip up to Connecticut in March or April, and last time I was there the GuitarCenter had a decent selection of synths. I'll try and drag Linda along with me We had lunch with her last time we were up there, but didn't have time to hit the music stores together.