Squeak, have you had a chance to play the new Casio XW-P1 Keyboard synth...it has a wicked sound, and a lot of control over that sound, and the price is pretty good as well.

I used their CZ-1 synth (got started on their CZ-101) on stage in bands, and this new XW-PI is every bit, or more, professionally done. I've sold my JP-8, so I may look into something more modest, but with lots of power (including on-board effects) too. Perhaps the Groove Synth, the XW-G1 would be more in your direction?.

Either way, these are great instruments...I had a quick chance on the XW-P1 and it's very well made, and from the few minutes I played it, it sounds very good indeed.

Ian

Before the knocker box was invented, if a venue wanted a full band sound, they hired a full band. No matter HOW good a pianist or organist you might be, you didn't get the gig.

Nowadays, if hired as an arranger player, they EXPECT you to provide the full sound. So if you have a large repertoire, it is expected to ALL be full sounding. Hence the need for many, many styles, so that lots of songs all using the same style doesn't become painfully obvious.

Another point of view.

Bill, just an easy question...do you primarily use the style engine(or knockerbox, if you will) in your Abacus, or do you play using left hand chords (rhythmically, or arpeggios if needed) and bass pedals, perhaps along with the drum machine in your keyboard?

We used the Electone, and Hammond that way, back in the 80's before style engines were improved to have more "realistic"(for lack of a better term) accompaniments.

Using the arpeggios in the Electone organ's knockerbox also helped fill out the background, but definitely had to be used judiciously and sparingly.

You seem unimpressed by today's style engines, so that's why I'm supposing you don't use auto accompaniment, or use it very little.

Do you have any recordings (MP3's are fine) of you playing your Abacus using your most used (or favorite) method...I would love to hear them, as I've not really heard the instrument; you can send them to me privately if you don't wish to upload here (my email is in my profile).

Ian

I tend to agree with your post. I don't want to be in denial about which group I fit into but..I also believe that music creation would require the skills of both groups.

So it is difficult for me to pick between the different arrangers when most arrangers sound great nowadays. I don't want to sell my left arm or spend $4000-$5000 just to harness the true power of the arrangers keyboards.

Since I do like Roland's BK5, Yamaha's PSR S950/s750, and Korg's PA600...the ease of creating new music/styles might be the big difference maker regarding my next purchase.

I hoped that maybe Yamaha had came up with a new approach to style creation but after downloading the Yamaha PSR-S950 Reference Manual, the PSR S950/S750 programs the same way as the S900/S700. Question answered.

Interesting Diki how the US works, over in the UK & Europe they don’t hire arranger players they just hire musicians to entertain, however if a keyboard player started using full styles they would be unlikely to get another gig, as the owners would just turn round and say what’s the point as I can just stick a tape on and get the same at a much lower price.

Another thing with the UK & Europe is that they are heavily into medleys so playing on the fly is a must, (Songbooks and full styles just get in the way) with most medleys needing to be created to what the crowd wants at the time. (They also like to see the player doing something not just pressing buttons unless he is been hired as a DJ)

If the musician wants to get something as original then they record either a Midi or Audio backing for the parts they cannot play live. (For this to work the Midi or Audio has to be played and recorded by the player, as if the backing is commercial it is easily picked up by the punters, and doesn’t go down well with them)

Finally home arranger players that use styles to sound good at home don’t what to hear pro players using full styles but prefer to hear what the musician can do with the board. (They will usually walk out or ignore the player if he uses the stuff they can play themselves at home by pressing a button)

Music also seems to be more focussed on certain styles in the US, whereas in the UK & Europe you will find both young and old enjoying styles from Big Band to Lady Ga Ga (In the same nights entertainment) as all they are interested in is being entertained by a musician who can actually play.

Bill

Ian I just use drums, bass and occasional chord track, as styles are about as much use as a used match when it comes to Heavy Rock, Synth & Experimental. (This is why I find hardware arrangers are so limited in their capabilities, and is one of the downsides of having used software systems for well over 20 years I suppose, this is also the reason I play Wersi as I can have and play all my software from one instrument in the lounge) I also dabble a bit (And it is a bit) in classical where styles are again of no use.

Bill

Thanks for the explanation, Bill.

I also have done some experimental music as well, which is why I kept my Jupiter 8 all these years, but like any old hardware synth (that's why VST's are advantageous), it requires expensive maintenance and a lot of careful handling, so I sold it to my studio buddy...at least I'll get to still play it once and awhile.

I figure I'll get something new, but it will hardware based; I'm quite interested in the new Casio XW synths, and I have had great luck with their CZ pro series in the past, so I think an XW may be a good investment. I have lots of lush Motif based pads/synths on my Tyros4, but I also would like having a relatively inexpensive (not second hand) hardware synth with knobs and/or sliders controlling the patches in real time...I can also run it through the T4's inputs enabling easy audio recording right on the arranger.

The only time I use PC-based sequencers is in my friend's studio...I like doing everything on my arranger now that it's possible.

You can still send me some of your work if you wish.

Ian

Bill, using an arranger doesn't necessarily mean it sounds just like the record. TBH, I am not honestly impressed with what arrangers do to EVER feel they sound 'just like the record'! And club owners over here hire musicians on exactly the same criteria they do in the UK (I know, having played both)... whether the entertainer 'entertains' the crowd.

No offense, but if an arranger player would get replaced by a CD, he's not much of an entertainer! The singing (instrumentalists are almost unknown over here apart from cocktail piano - I don't know of a single act in my area that is instrumental arranger) and audience interaction is what sets them apart from a CD. You might just as easily say that, if a club owner is willing to replace an arranger player with a CD, he could (for exactly the same reasoning) replace his solo guitarist/singers, or his jazz trios, or full rock bands. It would save him the same money.

I am curious. From your post, it would seem to imply that anyone that uses an arranger gets fired in Britain, for sounding fuller than a solo piano or organist. I find that hard to believe!

I agree, Diki. Good musicians are a dime a dozen everywhere. I've heard some keyboard players that are just incredible, guitar players that seem to have fingers that glide over the frets and never miss a note, sax players that never seem to take a breath, but most are not entertainers. Entertainers get the jobs because the audiences want to be entertained - it's that simple. I just talked with a restaurant owner tonight who told me it costs him about $300 for a duo to perform for 4 hours. They don't get paid $300-they get $150 plus tips. They also get free drinks and any meal on the menu. Then there's the ASCAP/BMI fees, and other miscellaneous costs. In order to recoup that $300 he must sell an additional $900 in meals and drinks, which rarely happens.

Cheers,

Gary