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#352641 - 10/12/12 03:37 AM Re: Peter B and others first PSR S950 Demo [Re: Diki]
Robbo Offline
Member

Registered: 07/31/08
Posts: 570
Loc: Ballarat, Victoria, Australia
Originally Posted By: Diki
Al.... the PSR certainly doesn't allow you to put a sampled drumkit in.

Secondly, creating a good, detailed kit from scratch on the T4 is a herculean task, as there is NO multi-sample import (like Akai, etc.) which closes you off from the plethora of exquisitely sampled drum kits out there. And if you think that individually importing all 4+ vel layers of each drum in a kit of perhaps 60+ sounds (and creating the exclusive cutoffs for hi-hats, etc) by using individual .wav's is anything that most of us want to deal with, you are probably mistaken. Can't say I have EVER heard a user demo here from anyone with a T4 that uses a custom kit...

What I don't get is how you can listen to a MoXF etc., hear wonderful punchy drum KITS, and say that a) the T4 comes anywhere CLOSE, and b) that Yamaha, rather than put kits like this in a Tyros and PSR, so ALL the styles can sound this good, decide to go the closed route of putting audio styles in (and a paltry 5% of the ROM styles, at that) and leaving you high and dry for the other 1000+ styles you may have.

The answer to fantastic sounding styles is NOT audio drums. It is fantastic sounding KITS. And this is something that their WS dept. knows full well.

Look, both Roland and Korg have great multi-velocity kits, with the drums sampled with a bit of studio 'ambiance' sampled in (and the Korg even allows you to vary the 'room mike' level) and combined with great MIDI drumkit playing, can give you a drum sound VERY close to audio, with NONE of audio's considerable drawbacks (no editing, no reverb control, no balance control, no muting kit and leaving percussion only or vice versa, etc.). Take this one step even further, and go listen to audio demos of BFD2 or EZ Drummer, etc, who's drumkits are much larger (but still primarily in GS layout) and I defy you to tell me they are not live playing!

Think about this for a minute... think of the R&D Yamaha must have put in to make these audio drums work. Think about how vari-speed software must have been developed. Think about the time and money spent on sampling these 25 grooves. Think about the extra FLASH RAM added to the PSR to store them, and load (painfully slowly) others in.

THEN.... think how easier it would have been to simply add some more ROM, and add in maybe 5 or so more drum KITS, sampled with multi-velocity, using the same drums, rooms and mikes as these grooves. Sampled with all the studio EQ, comps, and room mikes...

Wouldn't that have been WAY easier to do, and wouldn't that be incredibly more useful? ALL your styles could now be played through them, not the mere 25 that Yamaha meagerly dole out. Not to mention, ZERO extra technology. Just maybe a GB or so more ROM. Chicken feed!

Let me also point out that, at least on Roland's, and I assume on most else, all the note numbers outside the basic GM/GS layout are chock full of other kicks, snares, cymbals, percussion, you name it. There's no impediment to a style having a variety of snares, etc, either as alternates or layered.

I'm sorry, but I think some of you have drunk the Kool-Aid! This was a feature that, when only on Ketron's, no-one particularly cared about. But now that mighty Yamaha come out with a terribly limited, half baked version of it, all of a sudden it's the best thing since sliced bread! You guys amaze me at times!

I declare, were Yamaha to add a Chord Sequencer, watch all the people who didn't give a rats for it on Roland's or Korg's suddenly pronounce it indispensable now Yamaha have one!


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I'm with you mate, every time i have thought i would ever sell my Audya (few if any bugs now) i listen to the real audio, and the ability to change and use within styles, this is what i really want to keep.

Nice that Yamaha have finally caught up with the action in part, but really this is a cop out on Yamaha's part once again, whereby the sounds on the Motif could have been seamlessly integrated in a new keyboard as audio, but they want to milk the cow a lot longer. Sure they will sell a lot no doubt, but it's a short term gain for a long term loss, when players buy and then realise the limitations placed on them by the board, it will assist them in looking further for better solutions.

So my Audya right now is pretty much perfect, i believe an OS Update is coming, and i only now look forward to better and better features that will lead the pack.

Really Yamaha, you have to put the differences between the MI pro sections and keyboards aside, because yes will sell heaps, but i can tell you, and you know the keyboard players are the ones with the money.

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#352651 - 10/12/12 08:12 AM Re: Peter B and others first PSR S950 Demo [Re: Robbo]
trident Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/22/04
Posts: 1457
Loc: Athens, Greece
Very nicely done demo.

Especially the guitar sounds at the end, with the band behind the "guitarist" disappearing and reappearing to make the "You'll have your own REAL sounding band" effect more noticeable. And of course the playing was top notch.


Edited by trident (10/12/12 08:13 AM)

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#352660 - 10/12/12 09:17 AM Re: Peter B and others first PSR S950 Demo [Re: Machetero]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14200
Loc: NW Florida
Robbo... Even though Ketron have leveraged audio drums for much longer, and have got it just about right (sliced drum grooves, not timestretched, right?), I still believe it to be a flawed system.

Once you accept that sampled drum KITS can be as good as an audio groove (as long as matched to a MIDI file that is of high quality playing), really, there's almost no advantage to audio drums, and many, many disadvantages. First and foremost is, on my G70 and most other MIDI arrangers, if I want to take a style and soften it a bit, it's a piece of cake to substitute a brush kit for a rock kit, change the bass to an upright and the guitars to acoustics, and now the style is reborn! You can't do that with audio styles.

If I want more reverb (or less) on the snare, piece of cake. If I need to edit the kick pattern to better suit a particular song, no problem!

With how much better MIDI drum kits are sounding (thank God the trend is starting to go away from bone dry closed mikes drum sounds!), as long as matched to tasty playing, the slight advantage that an audio recording gives you doesn't outweigh its disadvantages, IMHO.

Sample ROM sizes are starting to increase at an excellent pace on arrangers and WS's, getting up close to the GB size. And the Kronos is showing the way to remove that limit completely by streaming samples live from an SSD. All I am saying is that, if mated to much better drum KITS, mere MIDI drumming can come VERY close to live (and some fairly small ROM size arrangers like the Korg's and Roland's already do an excellent job - imagine what they could do with larger kits!), opening out our options exponentially.

There' a world of older styles out there that, if played through a great MIDI kit, could have a whole new lease on life. Audio styles, they are what they are. MIDI styles, they are what you make of them!
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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