I think the reason this appears to be (but really isn't) a source of contention, is because there are two populations on this board and each tends to speak from their respective viewpoints. They are the Pro's/Semi-pro's and the non-pro's (amatuer/home player). The latter may or may not play at a 'pro' level but have chosen to make their living in another profession/vocation. The Pro may or may not be concerned about the 'purity' of the art but is always concerned about the business aspect of it. That translates into how well he is received by his paying audience. Rarely does a 'Pro' enter into discussions like this without some mention of "feeding his family". When that is the primary motivating factor, then 'all's fair' in love, war, and how we go about making music. This is not to say that Pro's don't care about the 'art' behind the business, but in the end, if a chicken hat will put a chicken in the pot, then so be it.

All this business about SMF's, arranger KB's, etc., is just a smokescreen. If you're a good musician you're a good musician; if you're lousy, you're lousy. Maybe YOU don't know which you are, but WE do .

I say, do whatever makes you happy, no matter what category you fall into. I do think, though, that there are some basic truths:

1. If you can't play, a new 'latest, greatest' keyboard is not going to change that.

2. If you can't sing, a vocal processor is not going to change that (I know, I've tried).

3. If you post a tune and only get the 2 or 3 obligitory "good job" or whatever, it usually means that it sounds like crap.

4. If you can't play a gig without a SMF, stop gigging and go home and practice.

5. If Mom is the only one that's telling you that you have talent, well........

6. Even if you're a Pro OMB, try to play with other musicians once in awhile.

7. Record yourself and then listen critically. You don't need to kill yourself after listening to the playback, just shore up the bad patches.....that was the point.

8. Finally, and most importantly, take everything I say as gospel .

chas

I guess quite a lot comes down to preference... I am getting the impression from some here that, even if they COULD perform and get paid in a larger, full band, they would still rather perform solo, with either the arranger, SMF's or even MP3's.

I guess that's the line I won't cross! If I get offered a full band gig, I'll take it over a solo any day of the week and twice on Sunday's! I don't mind using the machines to cover for a band if it's understood that it's a stopgap measure. But to take the machine OVER a real band... that's just something that makes me cringe.

I really don't care about how good arrangers get, or SMF's, or even how good the karaoke tracks are. They are going to be the same, night after night (I'm sorry, but slightly varying your chord input to a style that is going to play it the same way don't count, in my book!). But a live band is a living, breathing thing that probably couldn't play it identically on two nights even if it WANTED to!

But.... we all live and work in the real world. If the live band gig doesn't materialize, I'm not going to agonize over using the machines. Again, preference comes into it. All I want out of the machines is the bare-bones backing. Bass, drums, and as little else as I can humanly get away with. The day that I have a hand spare, and let the machine play something tricky or important, just shoot me!

Bare Bones or Full Bones doesn't make any difference........
no body cares!.......just make good music and people will enjoy it bottom line.

I still like it, even after your post was hijacked to Mars

Hey Larry, Mars is the hot new planet these days .

chas

Let's face it...it all boils down to musical "Talent"...and that includes feeling and creativity.

If you have little or none of the above, or have never tried to learn or earn them, playing with styles/SMF/live players isn't going to help.

Rico obviously has talent and the other included qualities, and, instead of just talking about them...he shows us.

Fine job, Rico.

I enjoy playing several times a month with a bunch of talented "live" players (number varies) and also I enjoy playing my Tyros4 arranger keyboard equally as much, whether stripping a style down to the basics, or using it full-blown (again, the number of players varies, only this time it is my choice).

A lot of times I learn cool new things from the "live" player interaction, and, in as many instances, I learn fresh material from using the Tyros4, especially playing genres I don't normally get to do with "live" players...also, with the arranger, I enjoy having the freedom to play any time I feel like playing, no matter what the hour or day.

Both situations have their benefits, and negatives..it's entirely up to the player to make the most of each position.

Donny said it best..."just make good music and people will enjoy it, bottom line", and I would emphasize the words "make" and "good".

How we successfully accomplish that goal, is no-one's business but our own.

Ian

I'm afraid this is the attitude I have to disagree with. Unless it IS 'barebones', it isn't YOU that is making good music. And, unless your audience is paying you no attention at all, they CAN tell the difference.

Let me ask you a question, Donny. Is it OK for you to lip-synch to someone else's SINGING? Now, the audience MIGHT not notice, and they MIGHT like it even more than your normal voice (if the singer is TOTL) or at least as well!

If 'no body cares!....' to quote you, are you comfortable with this? And if not, why, and what exactly is the difference between doing this and doing the EXACT SAME THING on your keyboard?

Im from the close your eyes and listen school of thought.....
what do you hear?... it's either good or bad...all this trying to fudge what someone plays and how they play it is of no consequence when your eyes are closed & you let your ears make the decision. Bottom line if your not playing a SINGLE solo instrument "without any automation" your just an operator of the machine your using to generate some kind of sound...stripped or full version..people have been lip syncing for decades it's nothing new, I personally don't use this method but, there are circumstances when it makes sense...you see it on shows, and stages all over the world & on TV many times...vocal harmony units is another form of automated singing also......musicians do care a bit more of what they do sometimes too hard on themselves.....but the people listing mostly don't care either way....if it SOUNDS GOOD is what is absorbed and enjoyed or not. So in conclusion I will always close my eyes ....listen......and absorb......my personal opinion of "what I hear" is my prerogative. Have a nice day I just finished a Fresh Mixed Garden Salad with Extra Virgin Olive oil & Aged Balsamic..soooo good ...now I'm off to another gig this afternoon,...fyi....all live styles full blown arranger KB w/ vocals NH gig...... no BT/Smf,..
For me everyday is a different bag of tricks baby!

Donny,

I could not agree more and most people would do the same.

So, in that case, a DJ is the best musician in the world? Close your eyes, sounds fantastic!

I think you kind of dodged the question, Donny. This isn't about what sounds best with your eyes closed. It was about, if you DON'T personally lip-synch, how is that different from playing much less than you can?