Hey! Who doesn't like the Platters, The Diamonds (Little Darling)? Our band did all of the Do-Wop, Shoo Dupe N’ Shoobee Do stuff of the day and I still love it. Watched many a Do Wop on PBS over the years.

What I'm doing is drawing a comparison to two of the greatest vocal groups competing with the Do Wop groups back in the day early 50’s, to what the instrumentalist Jazzers had to go through with the R&R, R&B so on and so forth of the time.

These people ( The Four Aces and The Four Freshman) actually sang flatted ninths and extended notes of a chord. It is a shame they had to go by the wayside too.

All I am saying is I figure more than half the people here somewhere along the way has and probably works or worked with a group that could do just about every Do Wop song ever written, right?

Here is the big question. Are there any people here that were ever affiliated with a group of vocalist that could produce the harmony on the tunes I have posted here?

You do not hear groups today that can do what these vocalist did with four voices because the tone deaf singers of today can't do it, not even with their pitch controllers.

I mean just think ,they could even cheat by using their harmony machines and play the intricate chord structure and learn and practice what the harmony machine produces and innovate. It too hard, too cold, too hot, Oops I'm getting confused with the hired help I use to get to lay brick in 103 degrees or 22 degrees. Sorry about that! I'll now try to get back on track, OK!

It’s obvious that these vocalist knew chord theory inside out, upside down, over, and out. Ha ha! This means that they weren't just entertainers. They were true musicians first, that knew every chord voicing that is possible to structure, right?

I'm sure that they knew more then the four chords that DonM, Gary and I know. It must be so. They probably used the piano to figure out the voicing.

Can you imagine how these fellows felt having to move over for the C, Am, F, (orDm) G chord structure Do Wopper groups? They had to be pissed.

Don’t forget this is not an argument because I grew up with the Do Woppers and still enjoy them. This post is about putting things into perspective, victims of circumstance or however the intelligent folks here can explain what I’m trying to say.

Come on Chas, Russ everybody. What am I trying to say here eh? Listen to these true vocalist:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=teuQEoeWPpA&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=pFRW_yqsFHU&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6n2BUZtD688&feature=related

These tunes are a little complex and the harmony is very intricate.

The Do Wop folks capitalized on familiarity and a changing audience.

Some think economics was involved. With the growth of American manufacturing came higher disposable income for workers with less education.

Television was "dumbed down" (remember Steve Allen, Dave Garroway and others?) as the medium got less costly. that affected programming. Some think the same thing happened to music.

Whatever happened, both formerly popular kinds of music have a place in music history and, I'm sure, in the musical careers of lots of us here.

Of course, there was some interesting crossover between these two styles over time, but that's a subject for a different day.


Russ

This is known as "The Lick." Look at all the different guys hitting this lick in different genre's of music. It's crazy.
I really believe that I'm not the only one who's nuts.

How long did it take to put this together?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krDxhnaKD7Q

Me, too! Sounds like many great minds are joined at the hip LOL!

R.

boo ... great stuff, great talent, no doubt about it ...
BUT we are not comparing apples to apples when we compare The Four Aces and The Four Freshman to the Doo Wop groups ... As far as the Freshman are concerned, two of them got together while studying at Jordan Conservatory - the music school of Butler University ... they then were taken under the wing of Stan Kenton !!! ... do you think they had some harmony and theory training under him?!? ... I don't know where the Four Aces may have studied, but they were all musicians before they became vocalists ... think that helped with them developing harmonies that other groups might not have been familiar with? ... and as for the vid clip of the Four Aces, I won't even go into the seven back up singers they have - which admittedly, they did NOT have during their popular days ...

Now, how many of the Doo Wop groups of the 50s do you think had the kind of schooling and musical background of the Four Aces or Four Freshman? - I would venture to say, let's see ... about NONE ... most of these groups were kids off the streets who made one recording and done ...

I understand what you are saying about the fact that the Aces and Freshman were 'bumped' by lesser talented groups, but I think we were at a time when 'simple' was better ...

BTW, when our band did doo wop, I actually would interject some M7 or M6 harmonies where possible, just to give it a little better sound ...

As for that 'lick' ... are you telling me that all jazz players do is play the same notes over and over ???

Just some 'food' for YOU to chew on ...

Tony the main point I'm making is just comparing how the Jazz instrumentalist were frustrated and that at the same precise time it happened to those vocalist guys too. That's all. I not making any comparison at all. There isn't any comparison. Just stating about the circumstance of the times and the situation.

Man don't knock the Do Woppers to the New Orleans Cajuns. Like Dave said that is where we cut our teeth. Love the Do Woppers.
However, I just can't help but feel sorry for the guys that had spent so much time honing their skills and studying and practice practice practice.

Tony, Russ thanks for commenting. Seems as though this post is going down the drain too.

Are these guys afraid of me? This can't be over their heads can it. It's just about feelings for fellow musicians.

I guess I'm going to have to start posting about how much better my i30 is in styles and sounds compared to all of the other arrangers to wake this group up eh?

Man 10 years now and all we do is want to hear how the other guy's keyboard sounds. I can go to the downtown music store and play and listen to anything I want. 20-30 thousand dollar pianos.

Can't you guys do that? WOW. Hell he even let me hold a $75,000 something or other guitar I wouldn't give him 50 cent for.

It didn't even have a handle to bend a note. How in the hell is a modern day guitar twainer gonna play that? $75.000 they must be crazy. Ha HA

Boo, I think that this was a well thought out and interesting subject. Don't be too discouraged that not many responded. As a horn player, who "lives and dies" playing variations on a lead line and has to understand the elements of harmony, you are far more qualified to talk about this issue, and have far more sensitivity to it.

I ALWAYS go to horn player buddies to figure out intricate harmony lines on projects.

These old dudes were singing the lines you have to understand and appreciate as part of your craft. And, I can see why playing C Am F (or Dm) and G would get really old for a tenor player.

The only thing worse was time when guitar players dominated pop and tenor players had to play in E and A.

The easy fix was to de-tune so E was actually F, but most working rock tenor guys bit their lip and learned to play in E.


But you were there, so I don't have to tell you..


Be well. I enjoyed this post.


Russ

Different strokes for different folks??? ... good effort. boo ...

Coupla things there, Russ. I take your points entirely, but I reckon Getz or any of the greats could take a sow's ear of C Am F G and make a silk purse out of them.

And detuning E to become an F, eh?:) And folks complain about transpose buttons on arrangers.:)

Man, 124, you're certainly right about Getz. One of my all-time favorites. I was a major Bossa fan...still am.


R.

P.S. Some of my favorite songs are C Am F and G (or close) songe....Since I Fell For You, But You Don't Know Me, Lady Blue(similar changes) and lots of others. In NO WAY am i knocking C, Am, F (or Fm)(or Dm) songs.

They paid for graduate school )LOL)!

"At Last" ... also, a nice tune by Eddie Heywood "Soft Summer Breeze" which I've used quite a bit lately in my 'summer songs' theme for NH and other senior venues ...
Talk about harmony:


The original:

124,

When you do High School Band, College or what ever. Nothing, I mean nothing, is written for horns in E, A, not much D, no body not even strumming guitar players delight playing anything in B, or F#. LOL!

Those keys call for all of the accidental notes on saxes, oboes, clarinet etc. which are all of the extra side keys on these instrument. I played my share in E, and A with guitar bands. But all of the groups with a pianist played in the key of C, F, G, Bb, Db, Eb Ab keys etc.

I haven't heard a blues chart yet in over 50 years around music, played in A or E, by Getz, Dexter Rollins nor Coltrane ever.

Let's just say that those keys are not natural nor conducive to improvisation on wind blowing instruments. Of course just doing Dada Dada Da can be played buy any decent horn player in any key. It would be comparable to a guitar player just strumming 2 or 3 chords in E, A or any key. No problem at all!

That's why rythmn guitar players can play in any key, maybe? At least the good ones. They have no right complaing about a horn player's gripping about not wanting to solo in the key of A or E.

Rhythm guys can't even play twinkle little star in any key, let alone improvising in different keys all over the place. Ha Ha.

Not being able to improvise even a little bit is beyond my comprehension. To me it would be like getting in the water for 50 years and not being able to swim.

I adamantly say dogmatically beyond a shadow of a doubt that the overwhelming problem lies in LAZINESS, or perhaps an extreme shallow closed mind.

Anybody have the secret answer? Share it with us would you?

I am speaking my mind in general. I'm not speaking of anyone personally. I don't know what anyone here can do with a few exceptions, and those exceptions know that I'm not picking on them. So, don't anyone get their feathers rumpled, OK?

Hey Boo,

Check the sax out in this group - one of my favorite oldies.



Gary

Since this is a MUSIC forum, I'll refrain from making any social comment. Suffice it to say, I can appreciate the music of that era a lot more when it's not accompanied by the visual images. Of course we all view this through a different set of 'cultural' filters, so for some the memories conjured up are very pleasant, for others, not so much.

Truth is, my parents (both educators) fed me a steady diet of Duke Ellington, Count Basie, Billy Holliday (my mother's favorite), and the like, and they, like me, hated 'do-wop'. The one exception that I remember was the Ink Spots (remember the guy that used to talk a verse of the song in a very deep bass voice - that was cool). At this stage of my life, I can now appreciate some of the great harmonies and creativity some of these groups used in creating some of these classics. So I guess I've sort of come to terms with it. Before you jump all over me, remember, this is supposed to be a diverse forum (with room for diverse opinions).

chas

I sing "The Way You Look Tonight" in the key of 'C' and for the last chorus I modulate to Db ... the Alto Sax player drops out of the song at that point ...



HEY !!! ... I resemble that remark!!! ... I've been going into the water for OVER 50 years and still can't swim ... that's NOT going to stop me from going into the water ... at least in the shallow end ...
Actually, I CAN swim ... I just can't float ... I can 'motivate' well UNDER water, but I can't get my head above it to breath ... We had a swimming pool in our backyard for years, and as much as I tried, I could NEVER get myself to float ...

Hey Chas,

You've got a problem man. What are you doing on this forum. You need to leave, get out of here, hit the road if you're only gonna talk about the good stuff, OK?

Hey Gary,

I hadn't a clue that Mohammed Ali was the lead singer of the "The Five Satins."

Thanks for sharing that with me friend!!!!!!!!!!

Well Tony,

You just told me that your sax man probably cannot play the greatest ballad ever written as far as I am concerned for any sax, "Body And Soul." Oh and "Darn That Dream" too!! But "Darn That Dream" is in G and the bridge changes key to Eb. If you can play the melody to this tune you should be able to learn any melody to any tune. No kidding.

Body and Soul along with I Cover The Waterfront are the two most prominent tunes that I can think of that is originally written in the key of Db.

Boy was I proud when I went to play with an older group of msicians in the French Quarters in New Orleans in about 1960 or there about and they asked, hey Boo can you do Body and Soul?, and I said yes. They thought that I was to young to play that tune. I told them "The Bird" could probably play that tune when he was 3 or 4 years old.

Oh there are others "Round Midnight" etc. I try to play all of the hardest ballads on my Tenor. I enjoy the struggle and challenge of learning these tunes. I just have trouble improvising on the stuff you can't even tap you foot on for more than one bar.

Tell your sax man even if he plays "Body and Soul in another key to play it every day for a few choruses for a month in Db and he will even surprise himself at how much better he will be able to improvise in Db.

Boo, I hadn't realized you had such a long and strong connection with the New Orleans music scene. Both Russ and I contribute to and are involved in Musician's Village, a housing project for old, poor, and indigent musicians from the NO area and which is administered by Habitat for Humanity. I've been threatening to visit the area and meet some of the old timers but haven't yet made time for it. I wish I had your knowledge of the area and it's (musical) history. I'm sure you've got some great stories to tell, especially about some of the no-name local legends that helped to shape this great American art form we call Jazz. As Winton Marsallis says, 'keep the music alive'.

chas

Chas,
Go back and read my earlier post addressed to you.

Whenever you want to go to New Orleans, call me. I have a great Standard Jazz Tenor Sax friend who returned to New Orleans after a pretty long stay in California who worked some with "David Fathead Newman," Doctor John( Mac Rebenack) among others.

Jerry Jumonville will gladly show you around. I also have family there. My brother knows all the spots too, but leave the jazz alone when eating red beans and rice and sucking crawfish heads when you are with him, OK? He's into what they are now calling "Swamp POP." It's just all of the old New Orleans pop tunes of the 50's.

Try to mention a decent CW tune every now and again OK, Chas? I like every body here. Try not to start so much crap with these guys. Man, the only ones that I don't care very much about are Uncle Dave and Donny! They sing better than me!!!!

See, I knew I was an oddball. As I've said before, I know squat about saxes - apart from the fact that you blow in one end and sound comes out the other, but please don't misconstrue that as my having no appreciation for the virtuosos on that instrument - I've mentioned my sax heroes in previous threads. Anyhoo, as a keyboard guy, I'll go all day in C D E F G A (B is not even on my radar), but anything called something # or b I'll stay clear of. It's just the way my hands work.

On improvisation, like Tony Mads I`ve been 'in the water' for 50-odd years and I can paddle, but I know I`ll never be a AAA swimmer like Bill Evans. Laziness? Probably. But I get around okay, because I'm always looking for something fresh. I don't always find it, but good stuff happens along the way sometimes.

124,

I'm sure that there aren't many on this forum that just play in two keys. I have played with a pianist and a guitarist that played the old standards. They were old. Believe it or not everything was in Bb or C. Man talk about driving yourself nuts!!

124, I am sure that you don't fit in the category of lazy. I'd bet money that you do quite a bit with your right hand other than just chord. Most every one can improvise a bit and some more than they think.

I'm talking about guys that strum for 60 years and still can't play a C6 and can't began to tell you what other note might fit in a chord. Now that's lazy.

Now go practice take two asprin and call me in the morning, OK?

boo ... "Body and Soul" is one of HIS favorite songs as well ... and YES he plays it in the original key, as he does all the great jazz tunes ... unfortunately, not being a jazz player, I do not play those tunes with him ... he has other outlets for his jazz playing ...the problem with "The Way You Look Tonight" is that when we played it with 'the band' back in the day, our vocalist sang it in Eb ... all was fine ... now, we only get together once or twice a year to play and "TWYLT" is not a song he generally plays, so not being that familiar with the chord progression he 'opted out' ...

He actually really enjoys ad-libing on "Body and Soul"