Ah, the arranger keyboard...loved by some, loathed by others, and totally misunderstood by more than a few, including a number of SZ'ers, if some of the comments on this thread are actually to be taken seriously.

The important thing to remember is that the distinction is not that one is professional and the other is not, regardless if it's an Arranger Keyboard or a Keyboard Workstation.

There was a time, not too long ago, when Tony was a tot, when good ole Arranger Keyboards were thought to be little more than home entertainment, much like the chord organs of bygone days.

This is no longer the case.

In my opinion, and in my experience, arrangers have evolved into a necessary tool for the professional performing musician.

There are those of us who have embraced the instrument and think it is simply a wonderful and marvelous invention, especially in a one-man band situation, where an arranger will give a more "live" feeling to the music by the unscripted use of intros, fills and variations within a style.

If you have an arranger that allows you to create your own styles, you can make accompaniments suited to the type of music you play, your playing proficiency, and with as much live feeling as you need.

As Fran said in a post on another thread (OMB or DJ?)...”arrangers are just "tools".

Personally, I feel, like any other electronic instrument or keyboard, it really depends on the skill and creativity of the player to make the most of it.

For my use, an arranger is both a "live" performance, and a recording instrument (the awesome Tyros4/S910 are basically self contained studios, as are the incredible Korg PA arrangers).

I use styles when I play/record, and I don't use them to color my songs, I create songs by using styles...they're a crucial part of what I do...I don't consider styles a crutch...they're part of the art.

Most importantly, an arranger keyboard lets me sit down and just spontaneously “play” a tune with a deluxe sounding band behind me...a band that can vary from just a drummer and bass player, to the whole orchestra, with brass, strings, choirs. This is where the arranger shines because the 'instruments' are set up to respond as though they are being played "live".

In fact, Yamaha's "Mega Voice" technology was created for that very purpose.

In music, especially nowadays, the more versatile you are, the more you work, and, a good professional arranger can keep you in the game, whether it be playing out "live" or recording music for advertisements, films, or maybe to back up a singer/songwriter.

Actually, in most cases, people who hire composers don't care how you come up with the music, as long as you do.

So, I am unabashedly an arranger aficionado...it's far better for my needs than a workstation, and, more importantly, for me, as a pro keyboardist, it has kept me employed.

Ian

Finally Spalding, you get it

Your last post sums it up well, if you want to go in-depth then you use a workstation, if it’s just general playing and tinkering then an arranger is all you need.

Bill

you got great jokes bill :-)

The more he tells 'em...the Wersi gets...


Mmmmmmmm...., Spalding, according to the description on this site, the old Wersi Abacus that Billy plays is an "arranger", or more accurately, what they call, an "organ/arranger".

http://www.wersiabacus.plus.com/

From the above site...
"The Wersi Abacus is a computer based Organ/Arranger that runs on Windows XP, it was first introduced in 2000 and has been continually updated over the years to keep pace with modern sounds and innovations."

As Bill says above,..."if it’s just general playing and tinkering then an arranger is all you need."

Let's just be very grateful we have choices, and Korg and Yamaha arrangers are available as superb alternatives for our "general playing and tinkering".

Ian

I agree with you Diki, once seen never ever forgetten the G70, don't forget I had one for about 4 weeks, when I tried to sell it I couldn't, they are not a good seller in the UK, I have never seen another one since, not likely to and don't care if I do. Your G70 is almost has old as Billy Wersi Abacus, mind you as Billy says, it is been updated on a regular basis, the G70 isn't, if you like it Diki thats all that matters, I got rid of my dead wood a while back

Well, your list of things that you tried and rejected got quite long, Tony. Plus the list of things you speculated about and showed considerable interest was sort of up there too. I'm just not sure what it was you were looking for. You certainly, with the Audya and apparently the G70, don't seem to be able to make a decision BEFORE you buy something! Perhaps you aren't sure of what you are looking for yourself?!

Let's face it, if you are happy with the Tyros now, you would have been happy with the Tyros back in the G70 days too. Strange.

Next time you get a hankering for a new arranger, might I suggest you go to the store that stocks it, and PLAY IT for at least an afternoon? I took two full days before I was sure I was going to be content, and have never had a moment's doubt since (nor had any issues trying to sell something I just bought).

Plus, in fact (that you didn't keep yours long enough to find out probably lead to this misinformation) the G70 was the MOST upgraded and improved arranger in Roland history, with no less than TWO major upgrades over the years, and several smaller bugfixes. OS3 is where it is now, and it is capable of doing SO much more than when I bought it. Obviously, not as upgradeable as the Abacus, but at a fraction of the price, one can't complain. We'll revisit the issue of upgrades when you sell your T4 to get the T5 because Yamaha only bring out new models, never adding capabilities to the one you have...

The ONLY reason I have kept my G70 this long is I am STILL waiting for something superior to come out with the features I consider important. A world class piano sound, a superb action to play it on (with enough notes to play pianistically) a live and vibrant sounding drum section, easy comprehensive style and sequence editing, and styles that leave room for a PLAYER... And something that doubles as the best live band keyboard in the world!

You let me know when that comes out will you..?

And talking about dead wood, is there any chance of you actually CONTRIBUTING anything here, other than criticism of others' equipment choices and making weird jokes at everyone else's expense?

Hi Spalding

Sorry to disappoint you, but I only deal in reality, not fiction which you seem to enjoy most.

Hi Tony

I suspect you had V1 of the G70 which was always a bit of a joke for anybody other than die hard Roland Fans, however when they introduced V2 then all this changed and it became one of the best arrangers out there.

BTW: There are still a lot of voices and features on the G70 that leave a lot of manufactures current TOTL arrangers’ way behind. (Plus when it comes to styles, then for me personally Roland leaves everybody else for dead)

Hi Ian

What did you think of the website (I realise there is only one page active at the moment, but I am rather busy at present however I will find time to finish off)

Bill

It was Bill I think a V1, I bought it off a chap who lived in Melksham, met him on a motorways services, when I tried to part exchange it the guy in the music shop in Manchester looked at me like I had two heads, he didn't really want to buy it off me, he said he didn't think he could sell it on, I don't think Diki believes me, I have never seen one to this day, that's 3 years back, he did take it off me, but it took ages to find another nut like me to buy it.

Bill, I thought the site looked great...I was actually disappointed there wasn't more to explore.

Nice job.

Regarding your take on the G-70...I had to babysit one here for a month or more...again, it's what we want to hear coming from our speakers, and, except for the piano sound and the keybed (and build quality), I was not overly impressed. In fact, the guy who had me look after it, came home and tried the Yamaha PSR I had at the time, and ended up selling the G-70 and bought two PSR's...I think they were either PSR-3000 or S900's. Like many other people, the G-70's weight was also a deciding factor for him to make the switch.

As far as styles/sounds, I worked as a clinician/demonstrator for Roland in Newfoundland, and, at that time, the styles (the E-70 was current) were way ahead of anything else, and basically stayed that way till Yamaha came out with the PSR-8000, and then they lost more ground again to the first Tyros and new mega voiced styles.

I thought the G-70's styles weren't a whole lot better than what was on the earlier models...yes, they did utilize better sounds, but the patterns themselves weren't very fresh or inspiring (the Latin stuff was pretty good), and I had to keep shutting off parts to make room to play over them...I will say the G-70's drum kits were better than earlier models like the G-1000 and G-800.

Styles and sounds will always be a personal and subjective preference, so what's good for one, will not work for another. I know there are a few here that love the G-70, and that's great, but, overall, the "Roland" sound itself, is not for me.

I did try the Roland BK-5 recently (the advantage of road trips), and really liked it, except for the key feel (again a personal choice). I thought the sounds, and especially the styles, were very nice with improved detail over the G-70/E-80. They seemed more spacious, although that may have had more to do with the tone generator and effects, than the actual style programming.

If anything, my second choice for a TOTL arranger would be a Korg PA3X (61 key).

Ian

I actually enjoyed my G70 right off the bat. After all, I was already used to the 'Roland sound' from my G1000, tested and true, and have always eschewed factory presets for my own setups. The V1 G70 came OOTB with a VERY 'European' style mix, quite drenched in reverb, and it seemed obvious that the style voicing had been rushed, to get it out quicker, I guess.

But it took only a short time to fix the reverb and voicing issues, thanks to the easiest style voicing tools in the industry, and I was enjoying it immensely.

V2 brought out the OTS improvements (stored with the Style, now, not in the Registration) and the brand new Guitar Mode (although sadly, only a realtime feature unlike Korg's... mind you, Yamaha have YET to add one of these) plus many other improvements, along with a complete reworking of the Style defaults, to lessen the reverb and address some of the imbalance issues.

Then V3 brought about the per Part and per Drum 3 band Parametric EQ and some other additions, and again, a revoicing to accommodate these new additions.

All in all, I would have had to have bought TWO more Tyros's, to have seen the same degree of OS additions from the original (I don't think Yamaha have EVER added a major feature from newer arrangers to the OS of older ones). That's a bit too expensive for me!

I haven't heard the BK-5 yet, but own a BK-7m. Yes, there are a few improvements (a few new kits have made the already excellent drums even better) and some of the guitars are much improved, and basses over the stock G70 are MUCH better (but mine has the SRX-07 card in, which addresses this), but at the cost of some of the sounds as well. Saxes are a bit less detailed, and some sounds have a smaller choice, but what do you expect from a sub-$1000 unit compared to a $3500 one?

But one thing that Roland HAVE done is spent more time EQ'ing these styles, and I think this accounts for much of what Ian is hearing, over the old G70. But as the EQ capabilities of the G70 are on a par with the BK series, all you have to do is copy some of the default settings from the BK's styles over to the G70, and much of what was missing can be addressed.

Having BOTH G70 and BK-7m, I must admit, I so far have no burning desire to take my BK out on the gigs along with the G70, as close as I can get the G70 to sound, and the way I use them (I'd rather the show was about ME, not how much my gear can do!), and that's not a bad admission for an eight year old piece of kit!

I had a PA3X in my house for a few weeks while I worked on porting Roland styles over for a friend, and I must admit, some of it is VERY nice. But the bottom line for me was, several of the basic areas (particularly the pianos) still took a back seat to my G70, and editing ease was dismal compared to the G70. You COULD do most the G70 can do in this area, but it's MUCH slower and less intuitive. And add to that, the library of US styles for Korg's is still a fraction of what is available for Roland, and once again, it is ALL about the styles in the long run. Plus they have that over-produced edge to them, like Yamaha, that makes it harder to add much of YOU to the mix other than the melody.

Trust me, nothing would make me happier than to dump my behemoth and move to something more modern (and preferably, a bit lighter!) but until someone actually MAKES one (in a 76), I am content. My modus operandi has always been to wait until there is a hugely noticeable difference between what I have and what I want.

Still waiting!