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#347811 - 07/25/12 06:04 PM Re: Your arranger keyboard prayers have been answered. [Re: travlin'easy]
124 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/01/09
Posts: 2195
You last point there, Larry, touches on something I mentioned in an earlier post. I don't know if such figures have been published in other countries, but here in Canada the population in the 55-64 age group outnumbered that of the 15-24 group for the first time in history. And it's a widening gap, evidenced by governments pushing back retirement age qualification, and so on.

So it would seem to me that arranger manufacturers would be pleased by such population changes.

This, of course, is pure conjecture as much as any other theory put forth so far.

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#347817 - 07/25/12 08:37 PM Re: Your arranger keyboard prayers have been answered. [Re: Bill Lewis]
SemiLiveMusic Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 2204
Loc: Louisiana, USA
Originally Posted By: Bill Lewis
There was a guy down the Jersey Shore who did a similar but even bigger thing before the Midi days. Al Rondo. B3 with 4 leslies, Conn theatre organ on his left with 4 gyro speakers ( 2/12" speakers on a spininng disk to give the string sounds a real vibrato) Mic'd baby grand on his right, two mini moogs on top of the B3. And probably about 8 15" speakers just for the pedals. Used a drum tracks 8 track drum machine and made the whole system sound like a symphony. Bus trips used to come to the Beacon Manor in Point Pleasant NJ to hear him. He could play ANYTHING AND he was blind. He was or still may be around but unbelivable !!! He could hold the crowd until midnight when he did his patriotic tribute and made the whole building shake. Waitresses would come out of the side doors with red/white/blue cupcakes with lit sparklers for the crowd. I feel fortunate to have seen him many times. Years later he moved to a place called PJ Ruggles and updated his system using synths, yamaha organ and 8 JBL 18" 3 way cabinets to be even more powerful. He invented "Live" Kareoke" People would come to sing and he would back them up-- any song, any key, all by ear. Last I heard he was just doing private parties with a Yamaha keyboard. If this guy in Florida is from Jersey, and he talks like he is, he must have known him


WOW, Bill, that is quite amazing!
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#347822 - 07/25/12 09:49 PM Re: Your arranger keyboard prayers have been answered. [Re: Diki]
Nigel Offline
Admin

Registered: 06/01/98
Posts: 6482
Loc: Ventura CA USA
Originally Posted By: Diki
Roland's move into the downmarket segment I think reflects what has happened to our arrangers... Losing market, losing relevance, only kept in production to satisfy us old fogies!

Shame, really...


It's really a shame. I think manufacturers should simply stop marketing arrangers as distinctly different products from their workstations. As styles are nothing more than a realtime MIDI feature I just think all workstations should all have style mode as well as conventional sequencers. Then the same keyboard would appeal to both markets and avoid having to create separate products. I would be much more inclined to buy a Motif or a Kronos that also provided a style mode. Then arranger buyers would be pleased to get the additional workstation features and workstation buyers would enjoy the additional style options. It would be a win-win siutation and the manufacturers would get better sales on the one model.

It is really nothing for manufacturers to add style software features to a workstation. Yamaha and Korg have already done the RD for the Tyros and PA series ... so just add that to the Motif and Kronos and make everyone happier. Maybe they may have to add a few more style dedicated buttons but mostly it is just incorporating the software they already have. And I could even live with them simply reassigning existing buttons for style use like they already do for other modes.



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#347830 - 07/26/12 04:36 AM Re: Your arranger keyboard prayers have been answered. [Re: travlin'easy]
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Nigel, sounds good except that I could forsee this problem. A combination device such as you describe would (necessarily) cost at least 1/3 more and many arranger players might not want to pay a premium for features they will never use (particularly home players) and vise versa. Also, as long as it has full-featured arranger features, it is GOING to be viewed as an arranger (with all the baggage that is attatched to that label). Look at the PA3x; very close to being a full featured WS but probably not purchased by any 'pure' synth/WS players. Still, as you said, it's probably the only viable solution. But first it (arrangers) will have to overcome the stigma it has with younger players.

chas
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#347860 - 07/26/12 11:17 PM Re: Your arranger keyboard prayers have been answered. [Re: cgiles]
Nigel Offline
Admin

Registered: 06/01/98
Posts: 6482
Loc: Ventura CA USA
It shouldn't cost anymore really. It is really just an addition to the software which wouldn't increase the cost of the hardware. Maybe some more ROM, though in the case of a keyboard like the the Kronos it would just occupy some more hard drive space. The cost of style software development would be paid for by the extra sales to arranger users just the same as it is now even though currently they are having to buy a different product.

And I don't think any stigma of arranger features would matter if they were just another feature on a WS. Like the realtime control provided by a Karma they are just another performance tool to use if you choose to use them. I think the stigma only exists when that is the primary focus of a keyboard.

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#347861 - 07/26/12 11:47 PM Re: Your arranger keyboard prayers have been answered. [Re: travlin'easy]
spalding1968 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 1264
Loc: United Kingdom
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQJr0hklTjw

in the demo above which we have all seen before it raised the bar in terms of how arrangers are percieved . read the comments . If Korg were to demo the workstation functions of an arranger they would sell more arangers. If they were to demo the sound creation functions , sampling functins , expandability in terms of sounds that could be purchased etc they would sell more arrangers. The deliniation between arrangers and workstation is only perception and i have made the point many many times before.

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#347862 - 07/27/12 12:00 AM Re: Your arranger keyboard prayers have been answered. [Re: travlin'easy]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5347
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Come off it Spalding, 15-20 years ago that demo played on a Workstation would have been very good, nowadays however it just shows how limited arrangers are.

BTW: If you can find some recordings of Peter Baartmans playing Kurzweil in the 80s, then do so, as they will easily blow away any modern day arranger both in sound and capabilities. (In case you’re interested the Kurzweils he is playing were released in about 1983 so are almost 30 years old)

Bill
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English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#347866 - 07/27/12 03:57 AM Re: Your arranger keyboard prayers have been answered. [Re: travlin'easy]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5347
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Adding Arranger features to a Workstation

Sounds:
When you select a trumpet voice on an arranger all the balance effects etc. are set up to give as realistic sound as possible. (Jazz Trumpet, Big band Trumpet etc.)
When you select a trumpet voice on a workstation, you just get a trumpet and it’s up to you to set it up as you want by creating your own pre-set.

All the voices on the workstation would need to reprogrammed for arranger users, (As most arranger users prefer to play using someone else’s settings) to get a properly balanced sound. (Sounds easy, and with arrangers it is, as they have very limited editing and features, but for a workstation the job is mammoth due to the editing and features available)

NOTE: The above applies to styles, OTS and all the other easy play features on an arranger.

Interface:
A completely new interface would have to be designed (That could be switched to) that arranger players would understand.

All the above would then need to be tested (Beta Testing) by a large number of users, to prevent any crashes due to incompatibilities.

Consequently the cost and time involved would be considerable, and until manufactures can see a market (Plus the Workstation and arranger designers start talking to each other) it probably won’t occur unfortunately.

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#347872 - 07/27/12 08:25 AM Re: Your arranger keyboard prayers have been answered. [Re: abacus]
captain Russ Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 7285
Loc: Lexington, Ky, USA
Marco is a GAS! GREAT chops. A really together left hand.

He'd sound good playing a toilet seat.

R.


Edited by captain Russ (07/27/12 08:29 AM)

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#347875 - 07/27/12 09:20 AM Re: Your arranger keyboard prayers have been answered. [Re: captain Russ]
tony mads usa Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 14376
Loc: East Greenwich RI USA
Originally Posted By: captain Russ


He'd sound good playing a toilet seat.

R.


Is he part of your bluegrass band with you on spoons?!? grin
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t. cool

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