I would like to think they do.

I have already been cast out as a heretic for my thoughts on the matter so I'll stay out of this one

Here the relevant part of my post from another thread:

Personally I think manufactures will eventually produce a range Arranger controllers (Similar to Midi Controllers) to which you will plug in your tablet (Giving you your screen and touch) then download the App for the instrument you require, this will significantly reduce R & D costs as they will only need to develop software rather than hardware. (If you’re not sure what tablets and apps are, ask the younger generation as they have taken to them like a duck to water) Also hardware add on for tablets and phones are also all the rage, so attaching it to an arranger controller and downloading the app will come as second nature to the younger generation.

NOTE: You will probably not be able to use any arranger software, as the hardware controllers will be coded to only accept the arranger controller manufactures software, so as to protect their market.

Bill

I agree that this is very likely where it is going. One only needs to check out the latest app offerings from Yamaha (Synth+Drum Pad and Arp+ Drum Pad) and also those designed (for the iPad) to interact closely via wi-fi with the Motif XS and XF range.

The modus outlined by Bill is quite accurate in my view.

Admittedly, I have a different perspective on the future of Arranger Keyboards. I believe we have only scratched the surface of the potential uses and capabilities of these computers disguised as instruments. The tablet route may indeed be an avenue. I recently acquired a used Korg Micro-Arranger and love the small size (portability) but the learning curve compared to Yamaha is really steep. I can't wait to see what the replacement to the S-910 looks like and does.

I'm hoping that some of the guys and gals here who write programs and create styles will come up with a universal platform to allow style sharing (being capable of being used to play a style for song creation) on any of the arrangers available now and in the recent past. (Bill's perspective on the future direction is probably correct, though.)

I've really become interested in multi-pads... especially the inter-active type which automatically provide accompaniment as chords and notes are played.

On my "wish list" in addition to more styles and variations, I'm still hoping the Korg, Roland and Yamaha will develop more instruments (Yamaha calls them voices) to provide realism. Most country styles are significantly behind the times lacking better steel and laptop guitars, dobros, flatops, etc.

I'm optimistic about the future and grateful for what these companies have created in the past.

My best to everyone,

Dave Rice

society has spoken for the future..it's called DJ's...look around you and smell the coffee.

It could be that some pro arranger players, especially those unable to exactly duplicate certain popular tunes demanded by said society, may have to resort to DJ'ing, but, since the majority of arranger buyers/users are home players, it will have very little effect on future arranger sales.

I'll have mine black with honey.

Ian

Ian time to get off the island and see what going on musicly in the real world.....Djs are predominantly here to stay......

have a read of this thread that i stated 2 years ago.

http://www.synthzone.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/292255/1

Its a long thread .At the time i had a very nice sparring partner called Diki and we talked about the difference between work stations and arrangers and the similarites .

The future is happening now just as i predicted.

Workstations have taken on more and wore arranger features and soon there wont be arrangers keyboards just work stations with pretty much all the arranger features or arrangers with all the workstation features. My brother who has the yamaha XS has just bought the Karma software to laod on his computer to play on his yamaha XS . This will speed up the music making process and he has finally accepted the benefits of arranger like features and he was the biggest opponent out there. So will the rest of the market eventually.

i agree with dnj. here's whats playin to the masses. kinda like the beatles of our era(60's).
my grand daughter went to this concert at almost 500 dollars for her ticket and she's going again tonight!!!! soooooothis this is the new music world. but remember somebody had to create the music of the show. i've done somw music of this similar to the techno dance styles on the old korg i5. so to me this is nothing new

www.globaldancefestival.com

Dj's don't have to schlep around tons of cd's anymore- just a laptop, a pair of powered speakers, and maybe a wireless mic. They can download anything (most songs for under $1US) and don't have to learn how to cover the original, they just play it. From any genre. And all the ones i've known work cheaper than live musicians...which makes a difference in this economy (in the states).

Which begs another question- how much is your musical talent worth (something many dj's don't have) with the investment in a sophisticated arranger keyboard? Do you make more every time you upgrade?

Many places are paying the same rates they did many years ago. That being said, if the performer can't afford the top of the line, will that upper level disappear due to low sales?

But (and this also refers to DNJ's posts too) there is just "something" about actually watching someone play an instrument and add their own personality - soul - feel, whatever term you want to use, to a song.

Whether it be with styles, or midis or backing tracks or whatever...there is just that indefinable thing that I think DJ's cannot quite match.

I daresay people would seldom, if EVER, go along to just watch a DJ - they go to dance and partake of other activities....but many people WILL for someone playing an instrument (including the voice which is after all the oldest instrument) even if with some form of backing.

And to Spalding I say, yes I do remember that thread - I agreed with you then, and the same for now!

I don't disagree- what brings people and keeps people returning to see a live performer is their appreciation of the aforementioned talent, which you don't need to click a mouse.

So the public is too stupid to see the difference in a person playing a recording be it through a radio, a phone, a computer, midi file or whatever to be able to see the difference in a real musician with real fingers playing notes chords especially more than 2 chords and appreciate the difference. Are humans really going to get that ignorant? Really? That sounds real sad to me.

Seems to me that there will all ways be the teeny boppers who will go for the cute entertaining guys and gals even if they sing out of tune and or off key, like AI and AGT, that's a given. Teeny boppers are just unlearned kids with taste for s**t. I think they are about 95% tone deaf for all the S**t they are smoking, drinking and whatever else they do to get high. It’s pathetic.

However, it seems that there will be a few who are much wiser and who will appreciate the real talent of a human really playing an instrument of any type that takes musical knowledge, practice and dedication.

Don't you think in the future there will be a few intelligent people left who’s brains aren’t fried on drugs and booze. Is society really becoming that stupid. If that's so, how shallow eh? SHALLOW. (FRIED, “BRAIN DEAD DISEASE“). It’s the wave of the future????

I believe that there will always be Saxes, Trumpets, Keyboards and people who will not be brain dead and want to learn to play these instruments.

What does a DJ know but how to make money. Ha ha! And everyone knows money is everything right? Just ask Howard Hughes who died with hundreds of needle marks in his arms.
I feel sorry for people like that. I really do.

100% +1

As long as there are people/musicians with real musical passion that drives them to pick up and learn an instrument rather than just listening to their I-thing, there will be a demand for those instruments. And it will continue to be available per this demand and if it can be made and marketed within the financial limits of said musicians. And like everything else humans manufacture, it will be made with the intention of being better than the last one.

Let us hope the passion of our music and performances rubs off on the next generations.......

I do some DJ'ing and thought you might be interested to know what happens, at least for me...its not just a matter of playing records anymore.

Lets say I have a wedding. I will talk to the Bride and Groom and we work out what they want to have played, sometimes it involves talking to family members or emailing them for requests too. I then obtain any additional songs (I have a library of 18,344 titles already and every single one is legally purchased by me). Every MP3 file I have is 320kbps and because of that each laptop has a 500gb HDD fitted. I try to work well in advance so i can buy actual CD's to rip, sometimes from ebay or charity shops (you can buy a whole CD for £1 instead of 80p for one track as a download, this builds my song database too). As a last resort I will buy them from an online vendor (not Itunes as they did not support 320kbps last time i looked). I then go through each and every song file (which can be a few hundred songs if your covering right through the ceremony, reception and end of night disco). I check lyrics for all the songs to make sure there are no profanities in case anyone is offended. If I must play a song with profanity I make sure I have....or I find the radio edit version. I then play every song to get the BPM and organize them into categories to build the final playlist.

I then divide the playlist up into the various parts of the day and throw in some additional songs because these things always run over time.

Then during the the gig you have to be on the ball - there are no breaks. each track has to be carefully mixed into the next as silences between a track are unacceptable and quickly changes the mood in a room, if during the disco you sense a song is clearing the floor you have to be able to quickly and seamlessly move into another track. Or if someone has a request you have to be able to find it quickly on your HDD or download. Playing tracks seamlessly is the art and involves matching speed and rhythm type (you might have to adjust speed very slightly) and then you mix the tracks to form a seamless transition. If songs don't quite fit together. I will use drum loops to merge the two tracks.

I take an MP3 player with the entire playlist on just in case there is a disaster and two laptops (one is on standby in case my primary laptop crashes - which has never happened). Both running DJ software and connected to my desk via USB soundcards. Which in turn runs through two 800W subs and two 400W active tops. Depending on the venue I take various lighting rigs to illuminate the floor and ceiling and I might also take a third laptop connected to a digital projector. The laptop runs a specially written program for lighting effects or I can use it to display lyrics, and again you have to prepare so the effects match the type of music you play.

Its hard work and totally full on. You don't have to have a musical background, but definitely need a good sense of rhythm. I am not a professional but its enjoyable and very different from playing an arranger.

I have not covered other duties...like talking! I also research the playlist and make notes on certain songs; like how many weeks it was in the charts and who was the artist, news events at the time, how old the groom was and what was number one for hm and her...etc etc.

Any wise professional should do their homework/prep before a show regarding content, playlists etc. Live musicians do take it a few steps further though. After I gather new music, I have to learn how to play it and perform it well. And if my band is performing, I have to distibute the same materials and have them do the same, not to mention juggling the personalities..

I don't want to get into a live vs recorded debate any deeper as that is not the topic here.

I will allude to my previous comments- as long as there is a demand for the product, it will continue to be made available. If the computer keyboard totally replaces the piano keyboard, then it will no longer be necessary to manufacture the product.

But I hope that never happens, and though I don 't know when the first piano was used to perform , the keyboard instrument has been around a long time and seems to endure albeit change.

Without the human aspect, music is nothing more than coordinated noise. I agree with Boo and Wrinkles, someone has to make the music - even music played by DJs and KJs. Someone with individual instruments, guitars, drums, trumpets, saxes, and yes, even arranger keyboards. From what I've been able to garner, much of today's music is written by musicians using arranger keyboards--not synths and PCs. So, at least from my perspective, arranger keyboards will be around longer than most of this forum's members.

A good example of this is concerts. Imagine a Jimmy Buffett concert with nothing but backing tracks. Yep, Jimmy standing up there singing his heart out with a PC sitting on a table next to him. How about a Sinatra or Elvis concert in Vegas with the same setup? You guessed it! The concert goers wouldn't be there. They would be somewhere where there's at least one band member along with the performers on stage. They'd be down in Bossier City, LA watching Don Mason singing his heart out at Ernest's Restaurant and making that keyboard's guitar sound like the best steel player on the planet. They'd be applauding and asking for more while filling his tip jar with 20s.

I was at an American Legion a few weeks ago, a place where I played every Friday night for more than 6 years. Since I left, they added a stage, a large deck overlooking the Susquehanna River and really fixed the place up. When they have a band, even an OMB performer, the place is packed. The evening I was there they decided to have a DJ. There was only a half-dozen people on the deck where he was playing. The brought an OMB duo in the following week, same location, and 75 people were dancing on the deck.

There are a few times when Donny and I disagree - this is one of those times. Sorry Donny.

Good Luck,

Gary

Donny, I am well aware of what's happening musically...I travel all of a fair sized territory, and, as I said, many pro arranger players that are gigging are forced to resort to DJ'ing in order to compete, although there are some still utilizing only the arranger.

My type of gigging was primarily restaurant background, and still appears to be in good demand.

Again, because most arranger sales are to home players, my clinician end of the business is hardly affected.

That's why I took time off from playing when I did, as I am doing a restructuring...I planned for this ahead of time.

My only performing, for the time being, and while I relocate, will consist of Yamaha demos, clinics...plus playing for myself and for friends.

I also have other projects planned for the winter, especially recording, utilizing my bought and paid for Tyros4, so I'm doing okay, and glad to be out of the trenches.

I'll leave the DJ'ing to others....not my thing at all; I'm a player first and foremost, and DJ'ing ain't playing.

Life is good,

Ian

No need to be sorry, I am not wrong on this.....Gary next time you go into a catering hall and they say oh yeah we have your table setup over on that wall.....think of what I'm saying ....in the scheme of things as us OMB players took away jobs from bands,....now DJ's are more then prominent in the performing music world and taking live players jobs all over.....I'd say 80/20 % in favor of DJ's.... all I'm saying is open your eyes to what is happening out there embrace it cause it ain't going away but growing steadily like it or not.... and diversify your skills to include more then just playing so you can get more gigs and satisfy the needs of ....
an american legion is no way an indicator to what is going on out there....I do it all and it works for me....don't be a one trick pony,there's a time to Play & sing....and there's a time to DJ & sing to your own backing tracks & Dj commercial dance songs....and there's a time for BOTH together, and just think even you can get a wild Disco light system like Uncle Dave has!!! .........carry on..

Gary, I agree entirely, and when I stop being that part of the music; that human aspect, I will be glad to retire and play for pure pleasure.

In my opinion, a person DJ'ing is not fulfilling the role of a musician...yes, playing a CD player/laptop to an audience definitely requires a certain amount of skill in picking the tunes, talking between songs and keeping the gig moving, but it is not playing a musical instrument.

Some people like doing this, some do it only because they have to, to compete...some mix it in with a little playing, or Karaoke style SMF singing...thankfully I'm not any of those...not that there's anything wrong with doing those things, but I get a contact high out of playing, and, ever since I started, it has never, ever, been about the money.

The playing has always come first, although if you do what you love very well, the money usually does come along, and despite some rather hard times, I managed to make a very decent living from playing keyboards.

If I had to resort to DJ'ing of any kind, I'm afraid that would end it for me, because it is not me being what I worked at since I was a kid...a musician...a keyboard player...DJ'ing is not playing, it's that simple. There would be no joy for this boy.

More power to those who can do it, and my sympathy to those who are forced to do it to make ends meet.

I'd just rather be playing.

Ian

DJ's are wanna be musicians for the most part. Not talking about Donny and people like him who's been on the music scene for years. If he does better DJ-ing to provide for his family I applaud him!

I think this is about DJ's wiping musicians and instruments, yes this includes arrangers, off of the face of the earth. It ain't gonna happen. Read my lips, it ain't gonna happen DUDE!

Who ever believes this myth like I've said is shallow in the brain and probably will never be able to do a "Suduku" puzzle.

They don't have a clue of what they are missing. To them I say get a life grab a newspaper and learn something besides scratching records all up DUDE.

From 78 to 45 to tapes to dvd to workstations to arrangers to dvd and almost back where we started, can you swim off the island Ian? The Island would do for Fran 150 gals and only you and Fran...heee haaaa coffee for you and the dollys for Fran

Here in the UK we know our limitaions, if you want a DJ you call a DJ, if you want a KB player you call a KB player it's simple, no one does both.

I think I'll take some of this to the bar..check it out..

Sparky,


I stopped drinking abut 8 years ago


Tony

No requirement to drink at the forum Bar.

There is place for both, often it depends on the occasion and the individual who is organizing the function. Personally speaking I will only ever go to live music events. If the musicians know what they are doing and have good audience contact, the Audience always responds much better to live music than prerecorded.

AGREE!

Just a quick few words on the subject...

The OP asked about the FUTURE of arrangers, not where they are now. We seem to have taken a sidestep into the current 'DJ vs. OMB' controversy du jour. I guess the only thing I'll say about that is... doesn't ANYONE remember how ridiculous old men singing Elvis tunes was, back when Elvis was first starting? Or some middle aged organist, pumping out tired covers of 'I wanna Hold Your Hand' back in the mid 60's?

Well, consider us doing a Black Eyed Peas cover now, or cranking up our arrangers to do 'I'm Sexy And I Know It'! How ridiculous we must look to the younger generation! As ridiculous as that 60's organist covering the Beatles...

Leave DJ'ing to DJ's. And leave covering trendy synth tunes to trendy kids with synths.

As to the FUTURE of arrangers, I'm with spalding here. Unless arrangers start adding loop and arp capabilities (and they are quite different from what we can currently do on arrangers), as we get older and arrangers remain incapable of producing anything remotely contemporary without sounding like the equivalent of that poor Bontempi player trying to cover the Beatles, what future CAN it have? It will gradually go the way of the 'home organ', relegated to dusty homes of elderly relatives the kids dread visiting (us, that is!) in case Granny trots out that bossa version of 'Hey Ya'!

Sadly, we have had a few attempts at a convergence of the VSTi/WS/Loop player and arranger, but all have fallen flat on their faces, either half-assed arranger sides, or half-assed WS sides, and all priced beyond their capabilities. The MS was SUCH a good idea... sadly left to the hands of a man unwilling to make it work. I have a nasty feeling we won't see it's like again. Dom has apparently seen the light, and abandoned any serious arranger development, choosing to concentrate on it's VSTi/WS side.

The majors seem to be trying to bend over backwards to avoid any mention of the word 'arranger', even as their WS's slowly approach them in capability. But, as we all know, an arranger is the whole package. Miss off several of the key things (inversions, linked fills, Songbook features etc..) and they fail pretty completely as a substitute. To be honest, I am not sure if we will EVER see the complete melding of arranger and WS, and possibly because of the bad taste most arranger players are leaving in the mouths of those young enough to tell the difference between what they listen to, and what an arranger sounds and works like.

So.... gradually, slowly, what could have been a VERY capable performance tool will get relegated to the status of the 'home organ'; irrelevant, dated, good only for oldies, singalongs, and entertaining the elderly.

What a waste!

Diki,

I just put it in a slightly different way when it first came on the market, the net result will be the same, going no-wheres fast, maybe collectors items for people who can't afford to buy anything else, in the UK we have an old saying " A fool and his money are easily parted " or " There is no fool like an old fool" I must admit Dom almost go me... I almost bought one, skin of my teeth or I too would have a very expensive door stop.

Tony

http://www.lionstracs.com/store/index.php?cPath=154

Not just Italy in a mess, Lionstracs bargin basement, wonder if nows the time to buy, only joking

Take a look back with the search feature about the MS, Tony, and you will see that I was WAY ahead of you in skepticism about the MS. Something smelled wrong right from the start.

Mind you... how's that Audya?

However... I see a possible bright future for the Audya concept if they adopt high speed memory and SSHD's to stream the chunks. Basically, they crippled the concept because the hardware they decided to use could not stream enough, fast enough. That's why so few guitar chord choices and the failed idea of extending the basic chords with MIDI notes added in. But imagine a FULL set of chords now that SSHD's and fast RAM is affordable, imagine that they bothered to finish the damn thing and allow the USERS to create new styles easily from existing loop libraries, imagine they work at least as hard as Yamaha (and that's not very hard!) to bring out a constant stream of new, high quality styles (not relegated to only being usable by Mediterranean musicians!), and the Audya concept could be what we are looking for.

At least it is one of the few things out there that actually has a REAL arpeggiator built in (albeit stone age compared to the arpeggiators on a MoXF and the like) and key triggered phrases.

But sadly, it looks like the EU is too broke to innovate at the moment. But an SSHD equipped Audya is definitely the path to the future I would like to see happen.

Diki,

I can't remember who sussed the MS out first, there were a few who took not one blind bit of notice of what we were saying at the time, some stepped onto the trap and snap !!! Where are they now, never seen or heard one played... the Audya has gone gggg gone, but like you say it could be part of the future, you must remember you are dealing with Italian manufactures who spend more time on holiday than working, hence to state of their economy, Diki take a leaf out of Billy's book turn your eyes to Germany and China, the phoenix will rise from that direction, just quoting a bit from TWD, chapter 10... I have little confidence that any of them from Italy will make it, especially bespoke luxury items such as arrangers.


Tony

Well, if our future is to be little drones, working without rest until our carcasses fall at the side of the factory line, you can look to China all you like, mate!

Me, I wouldn't mind moving to Italy right about now! There's more to life than the GDP.

Diki,

Your working days are over on the production line, if you are going to Italy take some money with you, I can see it in headlights now "DIKI GOES TO ITALY"... and fixes their economy..BTW drop in on Dom and put him straight too whilst you are there

great to see you back Diki. Its been too long mate !!

The oddity in all this is that the older generation group is now the fastest growing demographic - and this is a general trend in the western world. It was announced in Canada only this week that, in terms of population, the 55-65 age group surpassed the 15-25 age group for the first time in history, and the gap is widening. Might this bode well in arranger sales terms - well, at least for another 15-20 years?

This, being one of the more prosperous countries, should point to a better disposable income level among its seniors. Maybe the arranger manufacturers should ramp up their output for Canucks.

Hey, Ian, how 'bout a Caper version of the T4 loaded up with jigs and reels? Not your personal bag, I know, but it could boost your sales in the Maritimes, eh?

The funny thing is my job at the moment is getting Canadian/US slot machine software working on Italian slot machines. Even though money is tight there they figure people will still find the money to gamble and pay gambling taxes to the Italian government.

Siberian Storm is the first of 20 slot games we are getting to work on Italian slots.

Isn't there some historical precedent to this, though? The 'dirty thirties' in the U.S., and so on. Gambling, booze, entertainment tends to flourish in times of economic restraint. It's all to do with people willing to spend on escaping from reality.

The five casinos here in the Bossier/Shreveport area seem to be surviving well. And there is a new Jimmy Buffet Margaritaville complex under construction.
I'm sure we can get Captain Russ to come play at it, if we can find an airstrip close enough for him to land his 747.

DonM

So Tony.... how is your collection of Chinese styles and sounds coming along?

Fortunately, I guess a pentatonic scale cuts down on how harmonically complex your chords need to be, which works well for the arranger idea..!

But thank God that outsourcing is one of the last things to happen to musicians! Mind you, outsource most of our audience's jobs, and gigging gets a bit harder.

As I said... GDP is probably the WORST indicator of quality of life. In fact, it often seems to be a reverse indicator.

And Nigel... increased gambling is not a sign of a healthy economy. It is a sign of desperation. While a FEW reap the benefits from that industry, the numbers pale compared to what is being lost elsewhere. Note that these newer casinos are not being built in the middle of the wealthiest areas of our country, but amongst the poorest. Shreveport? Really??!!

I've played a few of the casinos up the Mississippi, and until you get to Tunica, most of them aren't filled by high rollers, but by desperate pensioners and field workers gambling their rent money on the chance of a jackpot. They were some of the most depressing gigs I ever played!

Two new casinos just built in Atlantic city both packed!

The economy is pretty good here in North Louisiana. New homes going up everywhere, unemployment not nearly as high as most places.
A lot of it has to do with the oil shale boom of a few years ago I guess. I don't see many poor people in the casinos; most are rich, retired Texans.
Also, cost of living is very reasonable here. The weather is good pretty much year round. In our neighborhood, we don't even have to lock our doors at night. You could not pay me enough to live in a big, congested city.

Happy to be a medium-sized frog in a fairly small puddle.
DonM

DonM can you lend me a few thousand? I want to get a HOT DOG CART to catch up on the rent.

If I weren't so damned old I'd come down and lay some brick on all the houses going up. Probably Shreveport is doing all stucco now like the rest of the world eh?

If it weren't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all! Don does that sound like a Country tune.

Man with all the chords I know I should have written a tune. I probably might have made a hundred dollars.

Don's made hundreds of dollars playing music. I know cause he told me so.

Oh yeah I know that. I didn't indicate it was. It is the failing economy there that what would have prompted this job for sure. But I was out of work for 5 months last year so I take the work that is offered to me. There is no way I am turning down work to become unemployed again. I am happy to do it and be one of the FEW that benefit.

Not doing it would be like turning down work in bars or venues that serve alcohol because some of our patrons are alcoholics. That wouldn't make sense. People make their own choices. None of us would let that influence our choice of gigs we accept to play. Sad as it is that is life.

Yeah, Nigel... Sadly, our professional success is often at the cost of others. But what isn't, in a dog eat dog world?!

But having seen what an influx of casinos have done down here on the Gulf Coast, I tend to view them as a double edged sword. Initially, things seemed to be on the up and up. But what used to be a thriving club music scene tends to disappear, as smaller, older clubs can't compete with the casinos, and their free drinks and shiny lights and ringing bells, but the casinos pick up a lot of the slack.

The problem comes down the pike later... as the casinos, having destroyed most of the competition, go on a cost cutting rampage, and slash entertainment budgets to the bone. So what would initially seem like a good thing for a music scene turns into a nightmare, and the overall number of decently paid working musicians dwindles. I've seen it happen in Biloxi and Gulfport. I hope the same trend doesn't happen in Shreveport, for Don's sake.

I have some musician friends that regularly go to Vegas (not me, not my thing), and they report that over the last decade, it has become almost impossible to go out and find a decent band to listen to. Sure, there are the mega-big star name shows, but Vegas used to be a hotbed of great bands. Now apparently, mostly gone.

I did my share of Casino playing, over a year solid working in Tunica (second only to Vegas in size of casinos, I heard), but I never felt I could trust my future to them, and decided to return to the Gulf Coast.

But sure... you gotta go where the work is!

Interestingly, when the economy takes a downturn, it seems as if more people call me for private and corporate parties. Maryland is just getting into the casino thing, still only have a few in the entire state, but the state gets the lion's share of the profits here - not the casino owners.

Cheers,

Gary