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#344343 - 05/02/12 02:21 PM
Re: Style Protection
[Re: abacus]
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14194
Loc: NW Florida
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One's opinion about this issue MIGHT be different if any of you worked in a profession where copyright infringement and piracy made any difference at all to YOUR income.
And that, I hate to say, is a sad, sad thing. Has it got to the point where something is wrong ONLY if it affects us personally, or are we capable of deciding if something is wrong purely by the ethics of it?
As I tried to point out... styles are not made by greedy corporations. Styles are made by MUSICIANS. You know, just like you and me. Well, maybe not QUITE like you and me, because I don't think I ever heard a user style by anyone from this forum that compared to a good ROM style, but who knows..? Maybe if there WERE money to be made from it, it might be actually worth our time to make one that good.
But I guess we'll never know, because most of you seem to think that, as long as it's not YOUR time and effort that is being ripped off, it's perfectly fine to do it for others. Other musicians, at that.
All I am saying is that while the practice may be commonplace, there really isn't any argument that makes it RIGHT. I can't even say that I haven't used a style or an SMF that might be 3rd party. One never knows, today, as many are floating out there. But, even if I HAVE got some, I won't say it is RIGHT to do so. I can say that I am doing a bad thing. Can you?
Or do you need to ignore the thought that a MUSICIAN made these styles, and pretend it is some greedy corporation?
BTW, things got pretty quiet round here AFTER I stopped posting. And, in all honesty, I only started back when Yamaha came here to directly question us about what we would like to see in a new arranger. The opportunity to directly address the manufacturers (or their representatives) is rare, and I couldn't resist the opportunity. This thread came as a spinoff from a suggestion to Yamaha's threads I made about protected style files. I honestly feel that I could care LESS about hardware features of arrangers (despite having quite a few ideas!) compared to their CONTENT.
I would be perfectly happy with the arranger I have got for the rest of my LIFE (and I honestly think most of you would too) if there were a constant stream of new, high quality styles for it, at a reasonable price. But sadly, the short-sighted and to be quite frank ethically questionable attitudes shown on this thread pretty much guarantee that we are doomed to paying thousands simply to get a few new styles wrapped in a case with only a few more hardware features.
So.... this attitude not only costs OTHER musicians their income from making styles, but costs US a fair chunk of our income from paying through the nose for a new arranger basically for the new styles in it. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot!
There was a reason I stayed away from here for a long time, and this thread (nice to see the usual back-stabbing comments from people with nothing else to say) has only reinforced the correctness of the decision.
So long, and thanks for all the fish.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#344350 - 05/02/12 07:11 PM
Re: Style Protection
[Re: abacus]
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
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Diki, I'm sure I'm the "backstabber" with "nothing to say" that you referenced in your post. You're right. If Larry had no problems with your response to his post, then I should have minded my own business and kept my mouth shut. Although I'm not a fan of the tactic of threatening to leave the board because someone hurt your feelings or challenged your wisdom or point of view, I nevertheless don't wish Synthzone to be deprived of your wisdom and knowledge because of a beef with me; so in that spirit, I promise to no longer participate in this forum, leaving you no reason to leave on my account. Truth is, once I unload or give away my remaining arrangers, it is unlikely that I will ever replace them in the future, so there is really no reason for me to actively participate here. Nothing against arrangers, mind you. It's just that the older I get, the less I like 'canned' music of any type and on any level. I've never played one live and they've gotten way too expensive to keep around as toys. So it's back to basics for me; organ, organ, organ (with a little VP770, cause I can't sing  ). A final comment of the 'protected' vs 'unprotected' style question. Frankly, I tend to agree with Tony Hughes - I don't think it matters one damn one way or the other. My honest feeling is that arranger keyboards will ALWAYS be the province of 'home musicians', just as their predecessors (the home organ) were. Bought and played by middle aged, middle class amateurs for personal pleasure and maybe entertaining a few friends. They will NEVER be adopted (at least not here in America) by professional musicians in any meaningful numbers and the manufacturers know this only too well. They're listening alright, just not to the handful of pro's that use them. They're listening to their target market and that target market wants only a few things; it must sound good OUT OF THE BOX, and it must be simple to operate. THEY are willing to shell out for a new model every couple of years for a few new styles ('cause the family has gotten sick and tired of the old ones) and because they can afford it. They will go through life without ever having changed a single edit parameter. Since we're talking 'dumb', here's an example; thinking that the handful of OMB's on SZ represents the American Arranger keyboard market. You may notice that I'm excluding Europe from this whole hypothesis - America only. Oh, and DNJ is probably right about the viability of (TOTL) arrangers. I think their days may be numbered. A cherry B3, on the other hand....... Again, I apologize for speaking up in a situation that I had no business sticking my nose in. I'm sorry that you (whom I've always thought of as a friend and ally) see me as a backstabber, but I can see how my comments may have been construed that way. Wishing you nothing but good luck and prosperity, my friend. Hope you will reconsider leaving since you will no longer have to contend with my inane comments. chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]
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#344379 - 05/03/12 07:30 AM
Re: Style Protection
[Re: Diki]
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Member
Registered: 07/31/08
Posts: 570
Loc: Ballarat, Victoria, Australia
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One's opinion about this issue MIGHT be different if any of you worked in a profession where copyright infringement and piracy made any difference at all to YOUR income.
And that, I hate to say, is a sad, sad thing. Has it got to the point where something is wrong ONLY if it affects us personally, or are we capable of deciding if something is wrong purely by the ethics of it?
As I tried to point out... styles are not made by greedy corporations. Styles are made by MUSICIANS. You know, just like you and me. Well, maybe not QUITE like you and me,
because I don't think I ever heard a user style by anyone from this forum that compared to a good ROM style, but who knows..? Maybe if there WERE money to be made from it, it might be actually worth our time to make one that good.
But I guess we'll never know, because most of you seem to think that, as long as it's not YOUR time and effort that is being ripped off, it's perfectly fine to do it for others. Other musicians, at that.
All I am saying is that while the practice may be commonplace, there really isn't any argument that makes it RIGHT. I can't even say that I haven't used a style or an SMF that might be 3rd party. One never knows, today, as many are floating out there. But, even if I HAVE got some, I won't say it is RIGHT to do so. I can say that I am doing a bad thing. Can you?
Or do you need to ignore the thought that a MUSICIAN made these styles, and pretend it is some greedy corporation?
BTW, things got pretty quiet round here AFTER I stopped posting. And, in all honesty, I only started back when Yamaha came here to directly question us about what we would like to see in a new arranger. The opportunity to directly address the manufacturers (or their representatives) is rare, and I couldn't resist the opportunity. This thread came as a spinoff from a suggestion to Yamaha's threads I made about protected style files. I honestly feel that I could care LESS about hardware features of arrangers (despite having quite a few ideas!) compared to their CONTENT.
I would be perfectly happy with the arranger I have got for the rest of my LIFE (and I honestly think most of you would too) if there were a constant stream of new, high quality styles for it, at a reasonable price. But sadly, the short-sighted and to be quite frank ethically questionable attitudes shown on this thread pretty much guarantee that we are doomed to paying thousands simply to get a few new styles wrapped in a case with only a few more hardware features.
So.... this attitude not only costs OTHER musicians their income from making styles, but costs US a fair chunk of our income from paying through the nose for a new arranger basically for the new styles in it. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot!
There was a reason I stayed away from here for a long time, and this thread (nice to see the usual back-stabbing comments from people with nothing else to say) has only reinforced the correctness of the decision.
So long, and thanks for all the fish. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hey Dikki, I agree with you, not the part about not contributing, but certainly the part on securing the future of style production by protecting the musicians who make them. As I staed before it can be done using the iTunes format, and I'm tiered of buying new boards for new styles. If we all think about it logically we are our own worst enemies. Make styles like MIDI, universal, and get manufacturers to provide a framework to have what you want, not what you get. I'ts not impossible, but until there is a fundamental change in the way us consumers think, they will keep giving us new boxes for a few new extra styles.
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so bill what's your synopsis of the situation are we are further forward with the big picture, what will this do to the price of gold???
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