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#340055 - 02/17/12 10:18 AM Is it my hearing (Yamaha related)
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
I don't know anymore. I thought my hearing was getting worse considering my wife and daughter can hear higher frequencies that I can't even detect now (as I'm getting older).

I have a Yamaha PSR S-700.., and my ears must be more in tuned to the piano than I thought. Several notes in the lower register (just below middle C) in the default grand (and several other pianos) have an issue that my ears really seem to be tuned into.

These notes suffer from a very notable loop point that also has a negative sonic reaction with the preset decay of the notes. When added to a few other adjacent notes (these individual keys) can sound a little out of tune. I've also noticed that problems with these notes arise when sustaining them as well.

It's worsened by the keyboards default EQ settings too. The only way I've been able to put it within tolerable levels is to do some heavy EQ'ing to get a better balance.

The keyboard isn't defective either. It's functioning properly..., but for some reason my ears appear to react to these particular notes that appear to suffer from sample stretching, and other sample related issues.

I'm also wondering if it's possible that the S-700's speakers (and cabinet design) might amplify the problem more. I've been doing a lot of testing by completely flat-lining the EQ and working up from there.
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GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

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#340061 - 02/17/12 11:17 AM Re: Is it my hearing (Yamaha related) [Re: squeak_D]
Tony Hughes Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3944
Squeak,

Its a known fact that women can hear higher freq much better than men, and men usually suffer more industrial deafness for obvious reasons, why not get your hearing tested, what sort of a job did you have when you worked.


Tony
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Tyros 4/Pair SR 350/ PC with a i8 intel chip, XENYX 802, Ford Focus 2 litre/Tascam DR07/Brother printer/Designjet 500/ our Doris/5 Grandchildren/ white boxers short Kymart shipped over and Typhoo Tea Earl Grey

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#340063 - 02/17/12 11:37 AM Re: Is it my hearing (Yamaha related) [Re: Tony Hughes]
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
Yeah.., I know women do typically hear higher frequencies.., but for me that wasn't the case (until the last few years). My wife has great hearing.., but for years I was capable of detecting higher frequencies than she could.

I had a hearing test not too long ago.., and I do know my higher frequency range has declined. I attribute that to the many years I spent playing in rock and alternative bands. I played keys and guitar. A lot time was spent with my Gibson or Fender standing in front of a Marshall full stack (my ears would ring for days after doing some shows).

I tested other keyboards I have too.., and I'm almost certain it's down to the sample quality of those particular notes. Which isn't too surprising either considering that the S series is the semi-pro market for Yammie. Add in compression of sound sets and things like this can become an issue for those I guess that have hearing that may be more sensitive to that range.


Edited by squeak_D (02/17/12 11:39 AM)
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

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#340065 - 02/17/12 11:47 AM Re: Is it my hearing (Yamaha related) [Re: squeak_D]
Tony Hughes Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3944
You just skated over the hearing test and never mentioned the full results, are you saying they are better now than when you were young, you must have some hearing damage, my hearing aids have corrected a lot of the damage. Most people who have a hearing test simply don't want to wear hearing aids, I didn't now i can't bear to have them out. When I first got in the car with my new hearing aids in and couldn't stand the jingling of the keys against the dash as I was driving.
_________________________
Tyros 4/Pair SR 350/ PC with a i8 intel chip, XENYX 802, Ford Focus 2 litre/Tascam DR07/Brother printer/Designjet 500/ our Doris/5 Grandchildren/ white boxers short Kymart shipped over and Typhoo Tea Earl Grey

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#340066 - 02/17/12 11:47 AM Re: Is it my hearing (Yamaha related) [Re: squeak_D]
Scott Langholff Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 3163
Loc: Pensacola, Florida, USA
Keyboards and organs have to be tuned a little different than an acoustic piano. An acoustic piano is not perfectly in tune with itself when you take into consideration the fundamental and the upper harmonics. When a piano is tuned, the middle or temperment octave is set and then as you go up or down in octaves those notes are tuned to upper partials rather than to the fundamental. On top of that each piano is a little different.

On an arranger keyboard, essentially a portable organ, not only is the middle octave tuned with the same temperment, but the upper and lower octaves need to be tuned to the fundamental of the middle octave rather than upper partials. If you play a perfectly tuned piano with an organ or keyboard you will find out that they are not perfectly in tune with each other.

If you should want an acoustic piano to be tuned identically to an organ or keyboard then the piano will not sound quite natural.

This was explained to me by a professional piano tuner when I was a piano dealer.

This may be what you are hearing. The Yamaha keyboard is tuned perfectly with itself and not like a regular piano.

Now that I think of it, it may be that the electronic keyboards are slightly detuned as much as they can to make it sound as real as possible. But this is the general idea as explained to me.


Edited by Scott Langholff (02/17/12 11:51 AM)

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#340067 - 02/17/12 11:51 AM Re: Is it my hearing (Yamaha related) [Re: Scott Langholff]
Tony Hughes Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3944
Scott,

It all makes sense, " WHAT DID YOU SAY "!!!! rotf2


Tony
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Tyros 4/Pair SR 350/ PC with a i8 intel chip, XENYX 802, Ford Focus 2 litre/Tascam DR07/Brother printer/Designjet 500/ our Doris/5 Grandchildren/ white boxers short Kymart shipped over and Typhoo Tea Earl Grey

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#340068 - 02/17/12 11:56 AM Re: Is it my hearing (Yamaha related) [Re: Tony Hughes]
Saswick Offline
Member

Registered: 01/05/01
Posts: 875
Loc: Garstang, Preston, Lancashire,...
It a big improvement as you get older you can't hear the feedback laugh
Col

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#340069 - 02/17/12 11:59 AM Re: Is it my hearing (Yamaha related) [Re: Tony Hughes]
Scott Langholff Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 3163
Loc: Pensacola, Florida, USA
Hi Tony

haha. Maybe this will help. If you play a note on a piano, you will hear the loudest or fundamental note the most. You will also hear other pitches, partials or harmonics only softly.

So if you play the note C on a real piano, you will also hear these partials in this order: G, C, E, G, Bb, C, D, E, F# etc. The partials keep getting closer to one another.

To get an acoustic piano in tune you need to take into account all the partials. When a piano is tuned the tuner strikes the fundamental note and then they usually tune the octave higher using the partial that sounds one or two octaves above the fundamental tone. Or something like this gibberish confused2

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#340070 - 02/17/12 12:16 PM Re: Is it my hearing (Yamaha related) [Re: Tony Hughes]
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Originally Posted By: Tony Hughes
You just skated over the hearing test and never mentioned the full results, are you saying they are better now than when you were young, you must have some hearing damage, my hearing aids have corrected a lot of the damage. Most people who have a hearing test simply don't want to wear hearing aids, I didn't now i can't bear to have them out. When I first got in the car with my new hearing aids in and couldn't stand the jingling of the keys against the dash as I was driving.




Let me get this straight....you drive a car with the ignition switch on the dashboard...like we had in the 50's..Just how old are you? shocked
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www.francarango.com



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#340071 - 02/17/12 12:30 PM Re: Is it my hearing (Yamaha related) [Re: Tony Hughes]
Scott Langholff Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 3163
Loc: Pensacola, Florida, USA
A little more info to help fill in the picture. A piano is tuned to itself. Each piano is tuned differently because of the differecne in wood, strings etc.

A well tuned piano will not neccisarily sound in tune with another well tuned piano.

Example, during one of the Olymics around 100 Kimball pianos were set up in the arena. They tuned all the pianos the same, some average setting used on an electronic strobe. All the pianos were in tune with each other, but each piano was out of tune with itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_tuning

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#340079 - 02/17/12 01:45 PM Re: Is it my hearing (Yamaha related) [Re: Tony Hughes]
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
Tony, I don't remember the full result of that test. However.., I do remember being told that the hearing loss I was showing was in the higher frequencies. Age and lots of loud music over the years is the culprit.

I should note that growing up I was said to have freakishly good hearing. I'm talking really good hearing too. The Dr's over the years (even well into my 20's and early 30's) think it was due to my severe vision impairment. I'm well beyond legally blind without correction. Eye Dr's still consider it a medical mystery as to how I'm corrected to 20/20 with (I might add VERY expensive) contact lenses (that I started wearing at the age of 6).

Ear specialists think that my exceptional hearing was a result of a heightened sense do to my visual problem (I've also got a killer sense of smell too). It's hard to sneak up on me as I'll either hear ya or smell ya smile

Even though my higher end range is dropping off the Ear Specialist said I was still hearing some frequencies that he found surprising (given age and the abuse I put my ears through in bands over the years).

I'm wondering if I should get a different sustain pedal. I did notice that when sustaining some of these notes it increased the issue. Does the S series recognize half pedaling, ect. Perhaps a good quality sustain pedal that would give me more control over sustatin (rather than the standard on and off) you get from a typical floor pedal might make a difference.

**Oh just to add Tony.., to give you an idea of how my hearing is probably heightened compared to some based on visual impairment. I have both contacts and glasses. My glasses have the most expensive lenses on the market (for weight reduction and thickness). My glasses prescription (if you're familiar with how they are written) is a minus -17.5 in the right eye, and a -17.25 in the left eye.

Every pair of glasses I get is a work of art due to the amount of rolling and polishing that has to be done to the edges. For me.., there's no such thing as "glasses in about an hour". It's more like 2-4 weeks (depending on how many times they have to re-cut them from screwing up).


Edited by squeak_D (02/17/12 01:59 PM)
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

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#340082 - 02/17/12 02:03 PM Re: Is it my hearing (Yamaha related) [Re: squeak_D]
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15560
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Hey Fran, some of the new cars now have the ignition on the dash, but they no longer have keys--just electronic starter switches. I saw a Lamborghini a few days ago that had a tiny, electronic key that opened the doors and started the car--BLEW MY MIND!



Maybe Tony is driving one of these and don't need no stinkin' keys.;)

As for the hearing, I lost my high frequency sounds many, many years ago, but Yamaha's piano sounds pretty damned good to me. Squeak, I have good news and bad news about the hearing situation. The good news is soon you won't be able to hear your wife telling you things you didn't want to hear in the first place. The bad news is, she'll make damned sure that you WILL hear them. wink

Good Luck,

Gary cool
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)

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#340083 - 02/17/12 02:21 PM Re: Is it my hearing (Yamaha related) [Re: travlin'easy]
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
Gary.., my wife often complains about my "selective hearing problem". I keep telling her that it's just a part of life an will only get worse as I age smile


Edited by squeak_D (02/17/12 02:21 PM)
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

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#340084 - 02/17/12 02:47 PM Re: Is it my hearing (Yamaha related) [Re: travlin'easy]
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
"Hey Fran, some of the new cars now have the ignition on the dash, but they no longer have keys--just electronic starter switches. I saw a Lamborghini a few days ago that had a tiny, electronic key that opened the doors and started the car--BLEW MY MIND! "



My daughter has an Infinity with that keyless thing a ma gig...
_________________________
www.francarango.com



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#340104 - 02/17/12 10:45 PM Re: Is it my hearing (Yamaha related) [Re: Fran Carango]
Tony Hughes Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3944
Originally Posted By: Fran Carango
"Hey Fran, some of the new cars now have the ignition on the dash, but they no longer have keys--just electronic starter switches. I saw a Lamborghini a few days ago that had a tiny, electronic key that opened the doors and started the car--BLEW MY MIND! "



My daughter has an Infinity with that keyless thing a ma gig...




Fran,

You buy that Lamborghini and a Billy Abacus Wersi you will have the girls round you like flies around a dirty old Jam pot, if you do get the goodies, send us some photos and demos, I can't wait, you'll then be "Fran Da Man" again rotf2
_________________________
Tyros 4/Pair SR 350/ PC with a i8 intel chip, XENYX 802, Ford Focus 2 litre/Tascam DR07/Brother printer/Designjet 500/ our Doris/5 Grandchildren/ white boxers short Kymart shipped over and Typhoo Tea Earl Grey

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#340105 - 02/17/12 11:10 PM Re: Is it my hearing (Yamaha related) [Re: squeak_D]
Tony Hughes Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3944
Originally Posted By: squeak_D
Tony, I don't remember the full result of that test. However.., I do remember being told that the hearing loss I was showing was in the higher frequencies. Age and lots of loud music over the years is the culprit.

I should note that growing up I was said to have freakishly good hearing. I'm talking really good hearing too. The Dr's over the years (even well into my 20's and early 30's) think it was due to my severe vision impairment. I'm well beyond legally blind without correction. Eye Dr's still consider it a medical mystery as to how I'm corrected to 20/20 with (I might add VERY expensive) contact lenses (that I started wearing at the age of 6).

Ear specialists think that my exceptional hearing was a result of a heightened sense do to my visual problem (I've also got a killer sense of smell too). It's hard to sneak up on me as I'll either hear ya or smell ya smile

Even though my higher end range is dropping off the Ear Specialist said I was still hearing some frequencies that he found surprising (given age and the abuse I put my ears through in bands over the years).

I'm wondering if I should get a different sustain pedal. I did notice that when sustaining some of these notes it increased the issue. Does the S series recognize half pedaling, ect. Perhaps a good quality sustain pedal that would give me more control over sustatin (rather than the standard on and off) you get from a typical floor pedal might make a difference.

**Oh just to add Tony.., to give you an idea of how my hearing is probably heightened compared to some based on visual impairment. I have both contacts and glasses. My glasses have the most expensive lenses on the market (for weight reduction and thickness). My glasses prescription (if you're familiar with how they are written) is a minus -17.5 in the right eye, and a -17.25 in the left eye.

Every pair of glasses I get is a work of art due to the amount of rolling and polishing that has to be done to the edges. For me.., there's no such thing as "glasses in about an hour". It's more like 2-4 weeks (depending on how many times they have to re-cut them from screwing up).



Squeak,

I don’t know if I can stand this anymore, it all too much, you are a walking, talking, half peddling, rolling, polishing, screwing up miracle. I don’t know of anyone who’s hearing get better with old age. I did however spot one little flaw in your post which might tells us all in the first paragraph.

“Tony, I don't remember the full result of that test. However.., I do remember being told that the hearing loss I was showing was in the higher frequencies. Age and lots of loud music over the years is the culprit.” headphone

Squeak, your memory is going!!!! ........ I’ve done this before, take your wife with you she tell you 20 years later what was said...heeeeeeeee rotf2

You don't live in that Cocoon Home do you? dance

Regards

Tony Deaf Head
_________________________
Tyros 4/Pair SR 350/ PC with a i8 intel chip, XENYX 802, Ford Focus 2 litre/Tascam DR07/Brother printer/Designjet 500/ our Doris/5 Grandchildren/ white boxers short Kymart shipped over and Typhoo Tea Earl Grey

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#340108 - 02/18/12 01:57 AM Re: Is it my hearing (Yamaha related) [Re: Scott Langholff]
Tony Hughes Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3944
Originally Posted By: Scott Langholff
All the pianos were in tune with each other, but each piano was out of tune with itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_tuning



Scott,

I believe you, even if no one else does... heeeeeeee, was that cup half empty or half full and according to Nigel a piece of string is 26.5" long exactly, but not each piece of string measured with itself.????...Nigel can we have some bigger and dafter funny faces please....some don't just have the right meaning..... rotf2

Regards Scott

Tony
_________________________
Tyros 4/Pair SR 350/ PC with a i8 intel chip, XENYX 802, Ford Focus 2 litre/Tascam DR07/Brother printer/Designjet 500/ our Doris/5 Grandchildren/ white boxers short Kymart shipped over and Typhoo Tea Earl Grey

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#340110 - 02/18/12 04:13 AM Re: Is it my hearing (Yamaha related) [Re: Tony Hughes]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Originally Posted By: Tony Hughes

..Nigel can we have some bigger and dafter funny faces please....some don't just have the right meaning.....


SMILE

Just select>click>copy>paste BB code


Edited by Dnj (02/18/12 04:15 AM)

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#340111 - 02/18/12 04:52 AM Re: Is it my hearing (Yamaha related) [Re: Dnj]
Tony Hughes Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3944
Donny,

If only I could sell my Audya, I would be so happy.

Are you gigging this weekend Donny .


Good Buddy

Tony
_________________________
Tyros 4/Pair SR 350/ PC with a i8 intel chip, XENYX 802, Ford Focus 2 litre/Tascam DR07/Brother printer/Designjet 500/ our Doris/5 Grandchildren/ white boxers short Kymart shipped over and Typhoo Tea Earl Grey

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#340112 - 02/18/12 05:12 AM Re: Is it my hearing (Yamaha related) [Re: squeak_D]
SemiLiveMusic Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 2204
Loc: Louisiana, USA
Originally Posted By: squeak_D
I don't know anymore. I thought my hearing was getting worse considering my wife and daughter can hear higher frequencies that I can't even detect now (as I'm getting older).

I have a Yamaha PSR S-700.., and my ears must be more in tuned to the piano than I thought. Several notes in the lower register (just below middle C) in the default grand (and several other pianos) have an issue that my ears really seem to be tuned into.

These notes suffer from a very notable loop point that also has a negative sonic reaction with the preset decay of the notes. When added to a few other adjacent notes (these individual keys) can sound a little out of tune. I've also noticed that problems with these notes arise when sustaining them as well.

It's worsened by the keyboards default EQ settings too. The only way I've been able to put it within tolerable levels is to do some heavy EQ'ing to get a better balance.

The keyboard isn't defective either. It's functioning properly..., but for some reason my ears appear to react to these particular notes that appear to suffer from sample stretching, and other sample related issues.

I'm also wondering if it's possible that the S-700's speakers (and cabinet design) might amplify the problem more. I've been doing a lot of testing by completely flat-lining the EQ and working up from there.


Many years ago, when I bought my first arranger, PSR740, after having it a few days, I was convinced it was out of tune. I called Yamaha and a few days later, the Steve guy called. He gave me a lesson in intonation. What Scott said in this thread is kinda what he told me. I knew guitars have intonation issues but didn't realize pianos do, too. Duh. Anyway, it didn't sound 'correct' to my ears.
_________________________
~ ~ ~
Bill

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#340116 - 02/18/12 05:48 AM Re: Is it my hearing (Yamaha related) [Re: Tony Hughes]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Originally Posted By: Tony Hughes
Donny,

If only I could sell my Audya, I would be so happy.

Are you gigging this weekend Donny .


Good Buddy

Tony


I thought you sold it Tony to get the Kronos what happened?


Edited by Dnj (02/18/12 05:49 AM)

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#340117 - 02/18/12 06:01 AM Re: Is it my hearing (Yamaha related) [Re: Dnj]
Tony Hughes Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3944
Donny,

You know and I know that the Audya is not a top line seller here in the UK or in the USA, so selling one second hand unless you want to give it away isn't going to be easy, I can wait, I will get the KRONOS about 3 weeks from now.

You take care good Buddy, are you swinging them keys tonight.

guitar

Tony

BTW if Greece doesn't sort itself out, they are going down the pan and maybe Italy will follow, will Korg and Ketron be around, hell who knows where we are heading these are uncharted waters, how anyone thinks they can sell organs for £49,000 a knock and KB for £4500.00 a go, I don't know. Someone on SZ will have the answers no doubt.
_________________________
Tyros 4/Pair SR 350/ PC with a i8 intel chip, XENYX 802, Ford Focus 2 litre/Tascam DR07/Brother printer/Designjet 500/ our Doris/5 Grandchildren/ white boxers short Kymart shipped over and Typhoo Tea Earl Grey

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#340127 - 02/18/12 07:16 AM Re: Is it my hearing (Yamaha related) [Re: squeak_D]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5347
Loc: English Riviera, UK
In any recession the luxury market always remains pretty much unaffected, it’s only the bread & butter that has problems.

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#340148 - 02/18/12 08:51 AM Re: Is it my hearing (Yamaha related) [Re: squeak_D]
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
Tony, send the Audya to me. I can sell it. After I do I will send you the money. It may take a while though.
DonM
_________________________
DonM

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#340151 - 02/18/12 09:11 AM Re: Is it my hearing (Yamaha related) [Re: abacus]
Tony Hughes Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3944
There you go I knew someone would have the answer, Bill Abacus, but only bankers have the money Bill...

Tony
_________________________
Tyros 4/Pair SR 350/ PC with a i8 intel chip, XENYX 802, Ford Focus 2 litre/Tascam DR07/Brother printer/Designjet 500/ our Doris/5 Grandchildren/ white boxers short Kymart shipped over and Typhoo Tea Earl Grey

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