Listen to the pro-players on the circuit and at the festivals and ask yourself what they are doing to foster continuing interest in keyboard entertainment for future generation?

Its not as though there aren’t plenty of ballads and other popular music pleasing to the ear of the next generation and the one after that.

So what should the leaders in the field of arranger keyboards could be doing to going forward?

I honestly don't think arranger keyboard awareness should be promoted. I think basic musicianship surpasses all technology lessons, and a skilled musician will find his/her niche with whatever tools are available at the time. The way digital gear goes in and out of style so quickly - I would never give someone dedicated lessons on button pushing, but I WOULD give them theory, harmony and phrasing advice.

Listen to the cartoons from the 50s and 60s - no sequencers, no loops, no arpeggiators ... 100% HUMAN-powered notes - TV themes like the Jetsons and Popeye would cripple most college level music students today. I embrace technology, but I encourage musicianship.

With THAT said - I do think there should be basic synth lessons available to those who buy newer keyboards. They can be quite confusing, and a little help can provide a lot of enjoyment. I hate to think that instruments are being sold to people with the label that "no music skills are required". It's all in the nomenclature, really ... arrangers, workstations, organs, synths, pianos, control pads ... they're all tools for the musician.

Music is what we should be pushing to the future generations, not beats, loops and samples. It'll be a real shame when all the musicianship atrophies, and the ones left to fill the "gigs" are glorified DJs. (sorry - TURNTABLISTS) heh, heh.

I haven't been posting lately, but I have to "AMEN" something that so perfectly reflects my own views on the subject. Nicely stated.

chas

Dave is right (damn, I hate to admit that LOL). I'm just thinking back when I started playing. No arrangers...no monitors...no vocal effects...no full range amplifiers. Limited choices on portable keyboards (think Hammond M, B-3, etc).

Then, as it is now, musicians adapt to the market and the available equipment/technology.

The challenge, I think, is to use technology as a talent enhancer, not a crutch. An arranger won't let a poor player sound great. A great player will sound fabulous on whatever keyboard he chooses.

The constants are change and ability.

Russ

It depends on the meaning of "going forward".

Personally I find that arranger popularity tends to regional, both in the context of a single country and the world in general, but I will limit most of my views to my area.

Here in Atlantic Canada, which has tremendous sales in the more traditional musical instruments (guitars, piano-acoustic and digital, violin, wind instruments etc.) and has a history steeped in many kinds of music, as diverse as jazz to Celtic, arrangers (and arranger sales) are alive and very well. The general view towards music is very open-minded, and progressive, while still embracing traditional music.

We heavily support arranger keyboards; promotion and education in regards to these instruments is paramount to their success, and the profits from these instruments tend to be higher than the other keyboards such as digital pianos, organs and synths.

In my experience, sales of Yamaha arrangers have increased, and, even during the recession, they remained at a very healthy level. Recently, on our own Synth Zone, we see several members buying new TOTL arrangers.

In my area, Atlantic Canada, we provide demonstrations, clinics, follow-up clinics, and other forms of promotion and education, so the market is very healthy.

If I expand a bit, arranger sales are also higher in certain parts of Europe, usually those which have a more open-minded view regarding instruments, and music education.

Arrangers are not a "dying market", and sales have slowly been increasing each year, in my experience.

Bottom line?

If you are in the business of selling arrangers, then you owe it to yourself, and the instrument, to provide clinics and promotions that will make the potential customer aware of how powerful, versatile, and FUN this amazing instrument is to the contemporary keyboard player.

Ian

i think that its one of those conversations that will just run and run. If you have an interst in being a better musician then any instrument if you apply yourself too it can become the tool for you to help express your talent whethre thats an arranger , workstation or banjo. The arranger market is largely untapped but we are already seeing a proliferation of arrangeresque workstations coming to the market and helping musicians and song writers develope their craft. This trend will continue and more and more musicians will find creative ways of using their instruments workstations and arrangers. If anything defines a musician its creativity.

Ian's bottom line says it all, don't you agree UD (Uncle Dave)??

Uncle Dave,

We are the dying, breed,you and me, kb will still be around when we have long gone. go and have a nice cup of tea.

Well since you now have the awesome Tyros4 in your hot little hands, Tony, you will at least die happy.

How are you enjoying it Tony?

I'm still on the honeymoon with mine.

Ian

I'd like to add an opinion.
I use an arranger out of necessity and laziness. I used to play multiple keyboards and bass pedals in a trio. We kicked butt. changes came along and then it was me and the drummer, two pieces and we still kicked butt. Drummer leaves for Florida, tried some new ones, none could fit in like he did so I went to a drum machine. Used it for a long time along with two keyboards and pedals. Got interested in arrangers and said "why am I working so hard dragging all this stuff around and no one cares. Began using an arranger and bit the bullet and started DJ-ing along with it. Sorry but I just couldn't hack trying to do the "Electric Slide" live.
So here I am ,still trying to push the live keyboard/vocals but the DJ thing is what they want. When I do do the live thing I get great response but then its on to the next party. Recently did a Bridal Shower brunch and they loved the live thing. Got booked for the Wedding cocktail hour, My favorite is doing a cocktail hour on a good piano, people love it because its new to most of them. If I could I would go backwards and do the keyboard/vocal/bass pedal thing again. It was the most fun. But bottom line its the public that dictated the business. Many many acts I see today are just Kareoke backrounds and live vocals and it sells. So arranger and backround MP3 players will continue to sell
to those who want to have fun on their own or try to sell live music without a band.
Just my $.02

Great post Bill.

99% of my Tyros clients are home players, generally over 40 years old, usually advanced skills and not beginners. I do see a few Tyros go to single acts; Scott Yee is one that comes to mind.

Many of the PSR-S-series seem to go to single and duos that perform...usually a singer guitar player, or a guitar player with a singer (usually female) and the PSR is generally used to play SMF for the entire gig.

So, in my experience, the higher end arrangers seem to go to the "keyboard players"...most of whom played keys in a band and are retired and want to play and have fun, mostly at home...again there are exceptions.

The playing business has certainly changed a lot, especially in the past 10 years.

My gigs were always restaurant background music, so the competition, at least in my area, was small, but, I must say I'm glad I was able to take time away from it (I was 11 years in one place-always learning new material) over the past winter, and now this summer.

I miss the trio setup as well...organ, guitar, drums, although, I don't miss hauling around all that gear.

Any luck with your B-3 yet?

Ian

Dave and I rarely disagree, but this may be one of those rare instances. I look at an arranger keyboard as a unique instrument, one that fills a lot of voids. Like any instrument, piano, sax, guitar, you must learn some basics, but there are distinct differences between those instruments, all of which require some technological training and expertise. The same holds true with an arranger keyboard. It's not a lazy person's instrument anymore than a guitar is. In fact, I found it much easier to play a guitar than it was to learn the intricacies of an arranger keyboard.

I'm no Captain Russ on the 12-string, but I managed to get by while performing in honky-tonk bars for a dozen years. Same holds true when I played an acoustic 6-string and sang with a band. I agree with Tony--the arranger keyboard will be around many, many years after we've all passed into the great unknown. They'll be played by a host of entertainers, production specialist, composers and others who see the arranger as an essential tool of the music trade.

Over the years I have spent an enormous amount of time teaching others how to navigate their way through the keyboard's complex operating system, while at the same time helping them improve their musical skills through the use of modern technology. I sincerely believe this is the wave of the future, and arrangers will, IMO, play a large role in the wold of music.

Cheers,

Gary

I never meant to suggest that playing an arranger was lazy. I just think players in general are getting too reliant on technology. Tabs instead of notation, cut and paste instead of playing all the way through ... that stuff makes me sad.

Playing an arranger at it's most basic level (simple chords and melody), is not a lot harder than playing a guitar by learning some chords and how to strum.

However, to be able to take an arranger to a level where people will actually pay money to hear you play, is no different than an accomplished guitarist.

For me to have an arranger set up to where I am happy with how it sounds takes a lot of work and preparation...no different than a guitarist who sets up his guitar with the right kind of pick-ups, the best sounding amp, the proper effects unit (and setting it up)...the bottom line is, we both still have to play well enough to keep the listener's interest.

Mastering Yamaha's SA and SA2 with the proper technique to make them sound true to the instruments they emulate is a skill that regular piano players do not have to deal with, for example, plus playing with proper phrasing in regards to style you are using.

I think it would be safe to say that you spent a lot of time making your arranger sound the way you wanted (and needed) it to sound, and that is a skill in itself...I think you'd be more likely to be using technology to your advantage, rather than be a slave to it.

Ian

Amen to all that, Ian.

Ian ,

I think you only need to look at the number of T4s sold and that should tell you,
all you need to know, the other KB manufacturers are just playing at it.

Technology is a slippery slope. Half the folks working in Lexington now couldn't beg a job before Mp-3's, sequences, harmonizers, pitch controllers, etc.

That's fine, but technology, in my mind, will never replace ability. The top folks here can really play. The rest are simply reducing price to steal the remaining jobs. Available technology means more people (people of less and less talent/ability) competing for the same jobs. Sadly, some club owners/managers don't know the difference between hackers/posers and players. Rates are the same as they were in the 70's.

Thankfully, it IS possible to combine performance, ability and ethics and carve out a meager living.

It's just getting harder and harder to pull off.

The key is to use technology, but don't count on it to compensate for lack of ability.

Thus, my "love-hate" relationship with arrangers and other "helpers".


Russ

There are only a few arranger instrumentalists I would pay to hear play; some on are this forum.

They take the arranger to a level that I feel is worthwhile spending my time and money to listen to them.

They have obviously spent time learning the instrument and how to make it shine, and are beyond simple chording and/or playing over commercially produced midi files.

Same goes for guitarists, organists, piano players, etc.

Some are just able to take the instrument farther than others.

Ian

And what the hell do you think you are playing over when playing an arranger? Professionally produced midi files!!! well duh!!....
They are just smaller, and in the case of Yamaha, far more boring. Unless one adds ALL the sampling and other NON-standard sound parts that some users spend WEEKS on adding and refining.

It's simple for me....I make my own styles...that gets rid of any "boring", if there was any to begin with.

That's what Style Creator is for...being "creative" with styles...duh!

People who make (record) their own midi files, and play over them are far more impressive in my opinion than those who play over commercially available midi files.

Ian

Yes, and if the sheer number of high quality uploads on YouTube is any indication, the Tyros4 is a winner for sure.

Nothing comes close in my opinion, Tony.

Ian

Make your own styles??? You mean you "cut and paste" parts from existing styles. That is merely re-arranging existing data, NOT writing your own styles.

And in reference to your comment re midi files - yes, exactly as I do it. I make my own!! The only parts I don't do are the drum parts. Always been pretty useless at programming drums.

PS: I should have said in the OP, CAN be boring. A few of the Yamaha styles are okay. Sound is still the best feature though of later Yamaha arrangers.

Works quite well for me...no complaints.

Leaves more time for me to enjoy playing.

Ian

Is any of all this you produce modern / up to date...like Adele or Rumer or Paloma Faith etc etc. I think that was the original point of this thread...?

Well with the lack of arranger Kb companies left in the game, and not many releases of new gear, Namm shows, Musikmesse , etc, etc, it sure looks like it's really dying out slowly in more ways then one, the young generation isn't interested also,.....it's sad to see a slow death as the home organ generation disappears, but maybe better different things are coming or maybe we'll have to adapt to doing it a different way with other kinds of gear or stick with whats left? ....

Sad but true. The arranger KBs are slow to arrive and interest
seems to be leaving both arranger and the organ business.
Everyone is waiting for Yamaha to come out with a new board
but I am now wondering if this is going to happen. Lloyd

Dont be surprised if Tyros5/S970/Pa4x/Pa900/SD7,9, & some low end casios will be the last akb's you see,.....but some will get good prices as time passes on these older units....

Well, considering the fact that the OP on this thread goes back to 2011, and since then we've had kbs such as the S950 and S970, the T5, the Pa4X, the Pa600, the Pa900, SD7 and SD9 ... and others I can't think about, I don't know if the AKB is dying ... things may have slowed down a bit, but I think they will be around after I'm gone, and I intend to be around for another 25 years or so ( I think getting to be 100+ years old will be about right )

Donny, how do you dig these threads up ?!? ... you gotta get out more, my friend ...

they might be older threads but the truth is inevitable the writing is on the wall....nothing lasts forever....hey maybe bands will come back also instead...

YES !!!

The sky is falling!!
Not, arrangers are still extremely popular in many countries--just not the U.S.
Love my Korg PA4X. If they never come out with another arranger, I'm happy with what I have.

that's the way to think and a very true statement...there's definitely a reason it's been so long to see a new model from anyone ....
a big reason..

I do agree... i love my music tools, arrangers, arpeggiators, multipads...and modern day sequencers with clip luanching..

But at the end of the day, nothing beats playing a digital piano on top of a simple drumbeat... (sometimes adding a bassplayer and a guitar... or layering a sound or two and some effects with the piano...)

Where it comes to synth lessons for the youth... there are more lessons available on programming synths then that there are on actually playing them.. (the young learn their stuff on youtube). What they actually need are a real teacher that encourages them, and learns them how to improve their playing... we all know that repetition makes the master... and now thats where the youth in Holland goes wrong..they dont like repeating things unless they are fun and offer immediate rewards...


And while i agree young musicians should go back to the basics.. they also need something that makes, the little progress at the piano they will make at the early stages, fun. An arranger is one of the tools that can be really helpfull to make beginners sound good, and keep them going..



Back to the OP.... i dont see a future for the arrangers we know today... but there is a future for what we know as an arranger... that future is becomming one of the tools a keyboardist can use to make music...

The future of great sounding keyboards is a "dedicated" hardware interface for controlling sounds created in a computer,... to know what i mean, every keyboardist should have a chance to sit down with spectrasonics keyscape... it has the ultimate EP collection... giving you the realisme of playing the real things... and then some tools to create a backing... because most homeplayers dont have the option to play and jam in a band...

Donny is making this forum better by his constant presence. He keeps adding whatever comes to his mind—and that’s what this place is about.

As I read through all the posts on this topic I find my feelings are changing; they’re not the same feelings because I am not the same. In the past getting a new keyboard meant more options. I press this and this happens. This new styles fits this song. I did this for many years and I got better and better. Better at what?

I believe arrangers, are losing popularity. Check the buy and sell listing. Manufactures do their best to give us more options; and we sit and apply the new options – just as I written above. There are times when I feel arranger playing is close to paint-by-numbers. I sold my favorite keyboard with great sounds four times. Why? The styles were getting boring; the same styles I loved year before.

Sad to say that most of the songs which were created on an arranger keyboard all kinda all sound the same minus the tempo and style. One song started with a sax – ended with the same sax, and the middle part was the same sax – A N D the same band that started the song and ended the song.

I don’t mean to sound like sour grapes; I did the same thing – Get my 200 songs ready for the job, check the tempo and the solo instruments and I’m off.

I know what a band sounds like – I hear what is happening in these bands as they go through the song – volume changes, different instruments – they use the band as a toll to create a feeling. I give Dave one big cheer; he told me how he used a bouton on the keyboard the cut everything but the bass and drums. That leaves my left and right hand up front – and now you can sing your first chorus without me getting in the way. And toward the end we’re in there doing all we can to bring excitement.

Sorry, I’ve been in bed with a cold for a week and this is taking my mind to a nicer place.

When I get a new keyboard my joy is to find what I need to express what I am feeling. It is not to follow the feeling of a created style, and do my best to make it fit. If I do that, then an arranger keyboard will become boring; and the people listen will turn away – and yes they will decrees in sales and popularity.

It’s us guys not them. A keyboard is just a tool. What you add makes the difference. I am a Sinatra fan; the other day I had his music on for two hours. I turned it off because I got bored listening to him.

John C.

Thanx Bruno,....I feel your pain,...the creative process can be so many thing,s to so many people,
done in so many ways, but the end result is "always" what it sounds like, musically & vocally....

No different than a live band. When I go to hear my favorite band they play the same songs, in the same style, with the same sax player, drummer etc. every time I go to see them. That's why I go to see them.

PS:.......and our duo gets the same amount of money as the full band.

Regards,

Jerryghr

Yep!

I used to have a full band, but the drummer got the same money as the musicians did, so I went solo!

Over the years I've expressed some of the same opinions as John C. and Donny (above)---except that when I say it, I'm a arranger keyboard HATER. Hmmm, guess it does depend on the messenger. The truth is, those staunch defenders of the arranger keyboard, particularly those who can't play anything else, will continue to live in denial until they draw their last breath. I truly believe that when the current crop of 60-90yr olds dies off, so will the arranger keyboard. Lack of interest, resulting in lack of sales, resulting in lack of any meaningful technological development, resulting in even LESS interest, will sound the death knell. When this happens, a 'cherry' B3 will still sell for 15k and a 50 yr old Steinway grand will still fetch 20k. They will be purchased by those who (in the words of Uncle Dave) HAVE studied 'harmony, theory, phrasing, etc.

The closer you get to creating an instrument that ANYBODY can utilize to produce professional quality music, the more you DILUTE everthing associated with craftsmanship, musicianship, creativity, and the GENUINE quality that comes from 'putting in the work'. Sure, guys like Telmo sound terrific, but one can tell in about 30 seconds that they've 'put in the work', and would probably put out some pretty good stuff with only an old MiniMoog and a beat up Prophet5. Have you noticed lately how many of the old codgers on this board have expressed their joy in re-discovering (gulp) PIANOS, and acoustic guitars. Looks like the chickens of technology are finally coming home to roost.

JMO, of course.

chas

Chas, nice. Jerry I need to put more clarity in what I have said. I went from “Are Arranger Keyboards losing popularity to, How to make our keyboards more exciting; more desirable.

The first thing to keep in mind is if you have only played an arranger keyboards what I am going to explain will be hard to understand. After playing with a live band for 40 years, and then playing with an arranger keyboard, and with an electric drum, the feel was not only different; but also annoying. It has the same effect a compressor does to a voice; it limits.

First thing I did was to check the tempo at the beginning of a recorded song; and then the end. The tempo increased depending on the type of song. Most Latin music does not vary. There are some classical orchestra that raise the pitch and in turn the tempo of the recording. In those days you could not do one without the other. The results brighter and more exciting. Keep in mind that you would not hear the change but you would feel it.

4/4 beat – guitar playing on all 4 beats. There are 3 ways for the guitar player to strum the 4 beats. On the beat – a little before the beat – and a little after. The change is slight, cannot be measured but can be felt. Let's called this feel. When playing an upbeat the guitar player plays just before the beat giving a feeling of anticipation. When he plays after the beat, like in a slow ballad a laid back fell is produced.

I told my drummer to hold us back no matter what – at the same time I played just before each beat. The result was a slight change in tempo – because we were in the last part of the song our volume increased also. Excitement, Excitement.

All that to say this: When the beat is ridged without variation you lose some of your music losing some of the ability to feel. The first time I used an electric drum machine I could not reach the crowd, but I knew I wanted to kill the drummer.

My point – there are things we can do to our arrangers that will help us take back some of what they take away from us. (Starting with the bass line) You can not measure the slight change, but you can feel them.

Again; if you have never been in both places; live band and arranger keyboard, this will not make much sense. AND this is not for everyone.

John C.
PS, I did not read his over when I wrote this, sorry if errors.

Arranger keyboard is a tool, and we can use it many different ways.
I most likely use mine in a way that others do not..

The least feature I use
is arranger auto play.
I usually try to eliminate extra parts.
If I use pads, it will be in place of an arranger part I muted...
I hate a cluttered up over busy sound..

I also don't care for one touch selections..I like my band
members to be the same players all night long..

The arranger is far and away the best instrument for me..
Sounds compete with any other keyboard (Nord etc)
My favorite choice is still a G70..

Anything I would do on a work station I can do better on the G70.

Layers , splits, quick instrument changes...G70 is best for me.

Sequencing and editing is easier and faster on my arranger.

Total control, mixer, mic input , effects, harmonizer, all easily
ready to go...many times faster than a workstation.

If you need to put together a tune, arranger out shines any workstation.
And easily saved as midi data for editing..

I can pretty much do without sampling, audio playback etc. I do have the
EA7 if I want these features..

The superior key feel and key range on the G, is as good as it gets..
Drawbar organ covers the bases too.
Extra sounds via expansion board..

Separate outs and effects routing too..

Arranger keyboard...... a tool that is hard to beat....

+1

Did a two hour gig last night. So impressed with the sound and capabilities of my PA 4X.

I have had my Korg pa1x for close to 13 years . It's interesting the way I have changed the way i have used it over the years . I used to use the style element 40 percent of the time (using out the box and custom made styles ) sequencer 30 percent and straight keys 30percent . Never used the sampler and still don't . I did tweak and modify sounds and effects a fair bit to replicate the sounds on the cds or you tube clips of songs I was asked to teach the choir .

Back then I was choir musical director and so at rehearsals ,having an "instant band " always on time , always in sync and flexible enough to accommodate a wide range of music in any key was really a great advantage .

Now many years on I have slowed down my choir work and now only arrange and compose and perform . I use the sequencer 40 percent of the time , and play straight keys ( on my stage piano and Korg arranger ) 40 percent of the time and use styles for quick sketch pad work the remaining 20 percent .

But the amazing by thing is how comprehensive and adaptable the arranger keyboard has been for any and every environment I have found myself in . Whether that is in the studio recording , performing live , or just doodling with musical ideas . The only reason I can see the market dying is that people like me don't buy arrangers very frequently . I certainly hope the market continues . I have benefited from it greatly .

Wow, Spalding what a nice positive post. I must admit the 50% of my buying a new keyboard has nothing to do about what I need.
Arranger keyboards have been on the top on my list; they have been my life since 1984. Some of my best times have been when I performed and when spending time with arranger keyboard people.

John C.

I have been using arrangers for the same about of time. I sometimes think, however, that since I come from an organ background,I feel an arranger has been a blessing and a curse. I still have a lazy left hand and would like to be able to play like UD, to name just one, that runs manual bass lines for example, rather than just comping as I do. I shouldn't blame the keyboard for my lack of perseverance however.

Hi Bernie

Here’s an option for the Yamaha and one here for Korg

Not as convenient or as flexible as an organ, but will suit a lot of users

Bill

Arranger keyboards are slowly dying (Just like the organ did in the 90s) however, they will continue and like the organ, will just become a niche market. (Arrangers just don’t have the tools for modern music live, and you only just have to look at how modern bands use keyboards and computers to see why)

Everything has its time

Bill

Then, I guess we are still viable with our own generation, which is fine with me.

Exactly, Bernie. I'm 73 and my audiences are in that 60-90+ age group, so we share a taste for a certain era of music. An era of music that runs a range of genres, a.k.a. variety. The music they like is the music I like, so it's win-win.

Like myself, Bernie, you don't have to consider what's coming along with keyboards in the next 20 or 30 years - we just enjoy the 'now'.

As for the youngsters coming along now, well, they'll sort themselves out, I'm sure, and they too will follow along with their age group right through to their own 60-90+ years. And as long as everyone enjoys whatever it may turn out to be, then it'll be win-win for them also.

Very well stated