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#325772 - 06/03/11 12:34 AM Re: Audya - Tyros - KORG SMF test comparison.. [Re: ianmcnll]
Nigel Offline
Admin

Registered: 06/01/98
Posts: 6483
Loc: Ventura CA USA
I still have a CZ-101 and CZ-1000 ... I love those old digital synths. But I guess that is just why I maintain a website like Synth Zone.


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#325775 - 06/03/11 01:52 AM Re: Audya - Tyros - KORG SMF test comparison.. [Re: Nigel]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Originally Posted By: Nigel
I still have a CZ-101 and CZ-1000 ... I love those old digital synths. But I guess that is just why I maintain a website like Synth Zone.



The CZ-101 was the first Casio synth I bought, and I actually helped the local dealer (who was selling out of his home at the time) to sell them.

The CZ-101 was and still is a "little monster" of a synth...the CZ-1000 was the full size key version.

I used to wear the CZ-1000 as a keytar, as it would also run on batteries, was very light, and had places for guitar strap buttons.

The sound was glorious, especially if you ganged the oscillators into one monstrous mono sound (two doubled patches!)...the distortion electric guitar patch, I got out of Keyboard Magazine, was awesome, and even did convincing feedback.

You have some prizes with those instruments, Nigel...they are a bit scarce and are destined to become very good collectibles.

Ian

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#325777 - 06/03/11 02:35 AM Re: Audya - Tyros - KORG SMF test comparison.. [Re: ianmcnll]
Nigel Offline
Admin

Registered: 06/01/98
Posts: 6483
Loc: Ventura CA USA
I love to hold onto those old synths. I still have

Casio CZ-101
Casio CZ-1000
Yamaha TX-802
Yamaha SY-77
2 * Roland JX-8P
Waldorf Pulse
Roland JV-880

But my main keyboard nowadays is still an old Yamaha Motif 6 with PLG-AN analog modeling board installed. A great keyboard for playing live with a classic rock band.

Yeah I know people don't value FM synths that highly .... but they just don't know FM that well. Good FM patches are the most expressive sounds available and still are unmatched on any any modern synth. The factory patches on the DX-7 just didn't show how good FM could be unfortunately. If it wasn't for the fact I already have 2 FM synths I would have bought the PLG-FM board for my Motif 6.

Not sure what my next keyboard will be but the Korg Kronos sure has me interested.

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#325787 - 06/03/11 05:21 AM Re: Audya - Tyros - KORG SMF test comparison.. [Re: Dnj]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
I went crazy with FM...I had a DX7 first, sold it and bought a DX7MkIIFD and then I added the TX-802 (which is a DX7MkII in a rack), which was MIDI'd to it.

I had some great FM programs, several from Bo Tomlyn, were excellent, including some great distortion guitars, with feedback...I used to do 99% of the lead guitar parts in cover tunes, as our lead vocalist was basically a rhythm player, and the good lead players were already working in other bands...it was hard work, but it really taught me how to use the pitch bend and mod wheels to good effect.

Bo also sent me a terrific Hammond Organ patch with fast/slow Leslie on the mod wheel for the original DX-7, and I modified it to work in the DX7MKIIFD and the TX-802...it was really a killer sound, cause as you know, FM does organ sounds like nobody's business.

The Motif 6 with PLG-AN analog modeling board is perfect for classic rock...it is surprising how "analog" sounding it is...I still have my old Jupiter 8, and the Motif was able to come very close...my Yamaha boss had a Motif with that same board for several months as a demo, and I played it quite a bit in his studio.

The Kronos looks and sounds incredible...I think that's where most of Korg's R&D money went, instead of into the PA3Xpro. If I was gigging in a band, I would definitely give it serious consideration, as it is an astonishing instrument, at least from what I've heard so far on the demos. It covers all the bases and then some.

Now that I have the Tyros4, I can't see me getting another arranger for quite some time, so I may add another synth keyboard , one of a different brand, for tonal variety. Like you, the Kronos has me very interested.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#325792 - 06/03/11 06:29 AM Re: Audya - Tyros - KORG SMF test comparison.. [Re: Dnj]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5352
Loc: English Riviera, UK
If you want an FM Synth that gives all that you are used to, (As well as more advanced features) and dont mind using a computer (Or have a keyboard that will accept VST) then there is the FM8 from Native Instruments, http://www.native-instruments.com/#/en/products/producer/fm8/

NOTE: You can also download a trial version

Bill
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English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#325816 - 06/03/11 10:34 AM Re: Audya - Tyros - KORG SMF test comparison.. [Re: ianmcnll]
Tonewheeldude Offline
Moderator

Registered: 01/21/10
Posts: 1537
Originally Posted By: ianmcnll
I went crazy with FM...I had a DX7 first, sold it and bought a DX7MkIIFD and then I added the TX-802 (which is a DX7MkII in a rack), which was MIDI'd to it.


I also had a MkIIFD stacked with a Roland D50 (with a PG1000), two great 80s synths and still my favourites to this day. (Not for recreating true sound, but as pure synths for awesome pad, lead and bass)

Originally Posted By: ianmcnll
cause as you know, FM does organ sounds like nobody's business.
FM sucks at Hammond, but it is Fantastic for Organ Bass in dance/pop music

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#325822 - 06/03/11 11:27 AM Re: Audya - Tyros - KORG SMF test comparison.. [Re: Tonewheeldude]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Originally Posted By: Tonewheeldude


[
Originally Posted By: ianmcnll
cause as you know, FM does organ sounds like nobody's business.
FM sucks at Hammond, but it is Fantastic for Organ Bass in dance/pop music



Well, the patches I got from Bo Tomlyn were incredible, I can't recall the algorithm I started with, but I believe it was the one where the operators were all basically straight across, but I am testing my memory here.

Bo managed to give it an earthy ballsy chorusy sound, and the mod wheel introduced a very convincing fast Leslie that was very cool back then. I had many other pro keyboard guys asking me what I used to get that "great Hammond sound", and a few thought I used another module.

I also used to MIDI the DX7MKII to my Jupiter 8, but, the latter was kind of precious, and I didn't like taking to too many gigs, so I ended up getting the Casio CZ-1 and running it into a Roland/Boss effects unit. With a bit of judicious programming, and the right effects, it sounded much better than many more expensive polys back then. Sort of a "DX7-meets-Juno60-meets-Prophet5" sound.

But as far as the DX7MKII doing organ sounds (also had some excellent Farfisa patches from Bo), I was more than pleased with what I was using...but, again, sound is subjective, but I have owned, and still play the real deal, and I thought it sounded close enough for my needs back then.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#325824 - 06/03/11 12:14 PM Re: Audya - Tyros - KORG SMF test comparison.. [Re: Tonewheeldude]
Uncle Dave Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 12800
Loc: Penn Yan, NY
Originally Posted By: Tonewheeldude
FM sucks at Hammond

I disagree - FM uses sine waves which are the basis of tone in a Hammond organ. Talented programmers found a way to harness each operator in the DX and make it act as a tone wheel .. true, only 6, but some organ sounds only use 6 drawbars. I heard many patches through leslies that rivaled the mighty beast. A sine wave is a sine wave.
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#325843 - 06/03/11 04:09 PM Re: Audya - Tyros - KORG SMF test comparison.. [Re: Uncle Dave]
Tonewheeldude Offline
Moderator

Registered: 01/21/10
Posts: 1537
I realy dont want to hijack the thread with a discussion of FM synthesis and the Hammond Organ, but I will just say that a Hammond is not about pure waveforms, the signal from a tonewheel is only a very small part of the final sound, so whilst you can build a plastic Hammond sound using FM synthesis (including key click) its just not possible to add the random factors that even made one hammond sound totally different to another. Same with a Leslie...its impossible with FM sythesis to recreate a rotary system.

If it were true that FM synthesis is so great for making a killer Hammond sound then I would never have sold my DX7IIFD and we would be using vintage DX synths now instead of spending thousands on clones and vintage Hammonds and Leslies combinations.

Please feel free to start a new thread if you would like to discuss further or post examples of super FM Hammond sounds..I could talk on this subject 'till the cows come home smile

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#325846 - 06/03/11 05:01 PM Re: Audya - Tyros - KORG SMF test comparison.. [Re: Dnj]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
I don't want to hijack this thread any further either TWD...all I am going to say, is the organ sounds I got from Bo Tomlyn were awesome...I had several pro keyboardists wonder where/how I got that realistic sound, and I personally was very impressed, and I am a former owner of a B-3 with two 147RV Leslies, and I play a B-3 once or twice a week in a jam band.

Perhaps if you had used Bo's patches, you would better understand where I'm coming from...and maybe you would have kept your DX-7MkIIFD.

I can't send you a recording of the sound, so I really can't prove to you how it sounded, so other than telling you from a Hammond player's POV about my own impressions, there's little else I can do.

As far as starting another thread, I'm open to it as well, but, it isn't that important to me anymore, I just wanted to relate my past impressions.

I worked quite a bit with the DX7MkII, as I had just started with Yamaha, although I did do a lot of my own programming before that and helped with the creation of an awesome piano patch on the TX-816 Rack mount where each module did a particular part of the piano sound...one the hammer thunk, another the resonance, and so on. These synths were very powerful.

Did it sound exactly like a real Hammond B-3 with a Leslie...in short, no.

Nothing does.

But it did sound virtually identical to the Korg CX-3 (not the new one) with it's own rotary sim, which was an excellent Hammond clone at the time...we actually A/B'd them.

Of course, I also didn't have any drawbar control, variable percussion settings (Bo's only had 2nd harmonic on/off) or an authentic action, but it was darn good enough to enable me to leave the Hammond B-3 and Leslies home (and eventually sell them) and play the several tunes I used organ in, for example, A Whiter Shade Of Pale, Gimmie Good Lovin' (by the Rascals), In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida, Smoke On The Water, Light My Fire (the Farfisa patches worked great for that one).

I did examine Bo's patches, but it was so long ago, I can't remember any details, but they did use the last algorithm printed on the panel...the operators in a straight line, and the slow/fast Leslie was in the patch itself, and controlled by the mod wheel...it was more like a slow chorus effect and the rate increased when you pushed the wheel ahead.

I say again, nothing sounds exactly like a real B-3 and Leslie, including the newer clones, although they are getting awful close...a buddy of mine has the Hammond XK3C system (dual manuals) and it is astonishing, especially through a real Leslie.

Back then it got way too hard to haul the B-3 around, especially since most of our gigs were in second and third floor nightclubs, so, for the time, the DX7MKII with Bo's patches, did the trick.

I'm not sure a seperate thread on FM is warranted here on an arranger forum, but, feel free to start one if you think there'll be some interest.

I did however, enjoy the discussion we have had already...it brought back some great memories.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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