https://www.yousendit.com/download/UFhzNHAwMVhlM1JjR0E9PQ



This song is recorded from the G70 and the PA800...both keyboards sound good, but what one do you like better ..the first recording or the latter part...

Fran,

i like the third recording best...the one done on the AUDYA lol

Lee if I said you the file ..will you record it for me and email it to me or post here?
I would like to hear the comparison ..also any Tyros4 owners..

Since I like both the Audya and Tyros4 , I would be interested in hearing a recording of this same tune..

Fran-

I liked the second one better. It sounded fatter and the drums were preferable to those in the first one.

Fran can you also put record it on the MediaStation also so I can make a educated comparison? But listening to both of these SMF songs I would have to choose the second one, better realistic drums, sax solo also... but making a judgment call on these is futile as different EQ, sound assignments, Efx, can change everything on each unit..

PS.. see you for breakfast in the morning..

MediaStation is cased and store in a hard to get corner...my studio is still in disaray...


I will try to attach the SMF here for folks that what to try it..

https://www.yousendit.com/download/UFhzZUNqQzdkMnV4dnc9PQ

Donny you are buying breakfast...

Thanks Bill

No problem on the Breakfast buddy ....but I'll have to stick with my original choice...#2... Thank you.

I'd humbly suggest that anything that Donny and I agree on should be taken straight to the bank, lol...

I liked the latter part too, for the same reasons as Bill

Thanks Bernie.....that maakes 3-0...

Can you record the seq on the Audya and KN7000....No need to record the G70

I thought the drums were punchier on the 2nd one, but the guitar had some weird bendy anomalies, which suggests that the original sequence was made on the first kb. SyEx might be to blame for the subtle differences. Overall, the first recording was smooth, but I'd tweak it for my personal taste. I'd need to tweek the 2nd too, but for different reasons. I didn't listen too long, but they are both fine. If I had to choose on, I'd take the 2nd in this instance too, but I really miss the organ in both sequences. That was always my favorite part of this song! I guess, the sequencer left room for us players! lol

4-0

Yes ..we have to play...Organ works and also a bright piano..

The seq is identical for each instrument..

BTW: the MS version used the N.I. Bandstand converted to be used as the default GM wavetable..

so in the end what KB is #2?

Keyboard #1 was the PA800....Keyboard #2....the 4-0 choice was the G70..and yes I also thought it was hands down, the better sound..

Make it 5-0 (slightly)

The second one sounded clearer and fuller. The first was softer, more mellow and may be better for dinner music.

BOTH good in their own way

BTW The Phillies are losing 5-1

Make it 6-0 with my choice too..

BTW: guys and gals that have a G70/E80...take this seq and use the "cover" tools for a quick edit...change the drums to "house" and change the bass to "pop synth"..I do this on the fly when I need to accent the seq for big time DANCE MUSIC....

This quick fix works with anything that I need to get folks up..and if you want to rattle the building add the "Mastering tools" compressor...

Fran/Donny:

I started reading the thread, but didn't download the mp3 right away. It's when it got to the Donny buying breakfast I got thrown for a loop ( no pun intended ) I figured you two had a side bet going on who would buy based on what SZ members voted for what. #2 was what I preferred as well. Was it a bet or not on who buys?

Stephen, No there were no bets or deceiving...I have been trying to use the PA800 for the last month...It is light, and a decent all around arranger, with some strenghts, and some quirks...I can use it when I feel the need for a smaller, easy set up (many of my summer jobs call for this)...

There are often times this past month, I just shake my head, missing what I know, to be a compromise to what the G70 does..One of these is the sound....I asked for opinion to rule out my predeceived opinion that the G70 is twice the board for me (not just in weight)..

The small poll confirmed this for me...

The all in one solution (Speakers, mic input, harmonizer, MP3 player) works well enough)..Too many button pushes for the MP3 player...Harmonizer is barely adequate..User friendliness leaves a lot to be desired,...limited buffer problem for seq play...but most of all..the ability to edit on the fly as the G70 does...

Some of the Korg styles are simply the best...but every style that I liked converted well to the G70 , and sound just as good on the G70..


Twice I had the PA800 up for sale, ..I removed it twice and also turned down fair offers...Why? because it does what I expected from it....If I didn't know better being a G70 owner..I would most likely be as content as other PA800 owners...but I do know better..

When I have my G70 and a laptop set up on stage, it is without a doubt the best set up I can use...If I didn't have to fight the summer Jersey shore crowds to reach the stage...this would be my only choice...but I have seen the benefit the last year or two..using a small set up (Prelude)..so I most likely will continue this pattern with the PA800.

Don't be surprised...if I go back to the Prelude..it handles the audio player better than the PA800, and the non exsisting one on the G70..

So.............No bets, but Donny is buying breakfast, for me digging out the MS for his requested demo..

I must admit, comparing two arrangers on SMF playback when one of them is a Roland is hardly fair..

After all, Roland basically INVENTED the idea of standardized SMF playback, and have never relinquished their lead at this feature. And given that MOST SMF's are actually prepared on a Roland (for the greatest compatibility) and that even Quicktime Player uses a Roland licensed set of sounds for web playback, the deck is stacked against everything else.

I am sure, if you took a Yamaha made SMF, made on an XG standard keyboard, and then put that file in a Yamaha and a Roland, the Yamaha would come out the victor. The quality of playback in unedited form goes to the brand it was MADE on.

You want to turn this around, take a PA800 style, convert and tweak it for G70, and then play the two back to back in a blind test. THEN, which one sounds 'better'?

I wouldn't bet against the Korg, under those set of circumstances...

I have no problem betting against the Korg..I prefer the converted style on the G70..Here is a random selected style converted to the G70 from the PA800....Tell me if you like the first offering or the second..

Fran,

I just listened to both of them many times.

They are both okay; the second one is a bit better, but neither of them are what I would call stellar.

The pianos aren't all that hot in neither of them, maybe that's what it is, and the guitars are kind of...dull.

Otherwise, I'm sure they would both be fine in a playing situation.

Ian

What a sacrilege, playing one of my favorite Jimmy Smith tunes on an arranger. The truth; if you ever heard the original, you'd know it sounds crappy on both.

In answer to your question, the first one sounds slightly less crappy than than the second. Play it live on a Nord C1 with an expression pedal (or even a Nord E3).

chas

Hi Fran:

Thanks for sharing. I enjoyed both versions. If I were forced to choose, version one did not sound quite so "canned" as v2. I'd offer a half-dozen caveats for my reasoning... but you wanted a quick vote... and you got it.

Best,

Dave Rice

I would love to hear the sequence on the BK-7M! For me the 2nd version sounded the best. I missed some more punch in the bass though - guitars sounded ok in my ears.

DocZ

The first one is the Roland the second one the Korg. Still don't no what you wanna prove with this Fran. I love both brands and both have their pros and cons.

I dont think this is the best way to make a comparison between two keyboards...

The reason why is because each board has different EQ settings / effects and different samples. Im sure if more time was spent EQ'ing and adding effects to the PA 800 it might have a better result - but same goes to the G70... or any other board brought into the equation.
 
Fran, You have owned the G70 for many years and I am sure you know it inside out compared to the PA800. Thus you would be able to achieve much better results on your G70 than the PA 800 in any application...
 
You can never judge a better keyboard by making it play the same midi file as the next one... Midi files need to be optimised for the keyboard they are being played on...
 
The best comparison for me would be restore both units to factory default and play the midi file straight out - the only changes should be re voicing...
 
but then again Arrangers are all about personalising and tweaking so a person who has more experience with the Korg could get a better result than someone who has only had it 1 month - 2 months.

Nick
 
 

Well said, Nick...spot on.

And, we all know Fran wanted the G-70 to win in any case.

Ian

No I didn't care if the G70 won..I posted a random style Organ swing that I had on the G70 (converted)..It was a style on my external memory card..that I never used....It was to prove a point...conversions from Korg to Roland work well...(disagreed with Diki)..it wasn't a contest or showing a great style.

As I have always said..a style is just a style...I would not judge any keyboard by it's factory styles...but what else can it do...

The first take was the G70.

To me, there wasn't a hill of beans of difference between the two--at least not enough to quibble over. What I would REALLY like to hear is Fran play the song LIVE--not a sequence. Record it using a Zoom or something similar--but PLAY IT LIVE! Then we can compare apples with apples.

Gary

Or, record it LIVE using a video camera...that would be even better.

Ian

Gary, what better way to show apples to apples...then a commercial SMF?

And I think (as 7 or 8 other folks) there was a pile of beans difference...

"Live" played with a "Style"...what 's the difference between the sequence or a style?...Except for the most part ..sequences are better for "dance " tunes..

Commercial sequences aren't done by you. Everyone using the same SMF sounds basically alike.

Style play is where you, the player, input the chords, use the variations, fills, intros, endings, breaks etc, and generally make the tune your own...sort of like having your own stamp on it.

Ian

Fran,

As I stated in my earlier post (even though you may disagree) is that making an SMF and playing it on two different keyboards is NOT the best way to make a comparison between which sounds better or worse.

Midi files need to be optimised for the board they are played on.

In my opinion this midi file sounds so robotic - the bass is terrible and the drum kit is constant and "robotic".It sounds like music from a computer game from the 80s or early 90s.

The snare drum you have used is at the same velocity throughout the entire sequence - one of the reasons why the sequence has no "life". There are just no dynamics and "colour" in the Drum sequence. - same goes for the bass pattern...

The Velocity level it is set at could suit the drumkit better of the Roland and visa versa.

You stated in your reply to my post that "it wasn't a contest" but I am pretty sure that was the intention of this thread.

I would love for someone to make a midi file on a Tyros and then get you to play it back in your Roland - it would probably sound terrible and that is proof that you cant make an apples to apples comparison using SMF.

To you - SMF might be the most important or crucial requirement in arranger keyboards - but it sure is not the same for many others... A synth with a much more pro level sequencer would probably be a better suit for you (no offence)

Nick

Just to add - Dont get me wrong Fran, the G70 is awesome and those demos you sent me via email a few months ago blew me away.

I never under estimate the G70 and respect it very highly.
But I am merely trying to make a point that SMF is not the best way to compare one arranger to another.

Nick

I agree with Ian and Nick--play the damned thing, Fran. I want to hear what that G-70 really sounds like--not what someone's midi files sounds like. That midi file may sound professional as Hell, but like any midi file it sounds best on the keyboard it was created upon, or the keyboard it was re-tuned for. Select an appropriate style, fire up that video camera and record the song on both keyboards. C'mon, you can do it.

Gary

Ian Styles are nothing but sequences...and they sound the same when chorded by you or I...Playing over sequences adds just as much demension...maybe more..and today's arrangers with markers and changing tones on the fly...makes a sequence just as much your own, as playing style patterns with a few chord changes and fills...Think about it...

Guys don't take this personally, but playing all night long with just arranger auto play styles, will bore my audiences to death..

My venues want to have a tune recognizable to them.."like the record"....Sure auto play arranger method can work here or there, but it would never carry a night, where I play...

When I usually use the arranger .it is stripped down or auto stuff except for drums..turned off..

A one hour gig , maybe will work playing arranger only, but not my jobs..with the band or solo..

I am sure if you ask others that play the same type of jobs..they will "amen" me...

Ask UD or Donny....we need to use all the tools...and SMF's are a major tool..

Ian Styles are nothing but sequences...and they sound the same when chorded by you or I...Playing over sequences adds just as much demension...maybe more..and today's arrangers with markers and changing tones on the fly...makes a sequence just as much your own, as playing style patterns with a few chord changes and fills...Think about it... [/quote]

Fran - Styles are indeed sequences... and styles are optimised for the respective keyboard they are released on. YES you can convert a korg to a roland style and tweak it to sound better on the Roland. this is possible - I am sure you have proven this BUT it is only a minor percentage of the total of styles...

What i mean is there might be 400 styles on the Korg PA 800 and 20 of them might sound better on the the roland after tweaking... but then again - most people tweak factory styles anyway so it proves yet again that you cannot compare a keyboard's sound output using the SAME sequence file...

Nick

Well, Fran, I don't agree with your statement at all.

If you played a tune using a style, and I played the same tune using the same style, we would definitely sound different...even on the same keyboard.

A SMF, despite having markers and repeats, is not the same as using a style...if it was, then why have styles on the keyboard?

Why not just have 500 SMF files (or MP3) instead of 500 styles?

No, I can't agree they are very much alike at all...they do have similarities, but not enough to say they "sound the same".

I would not play if I had to use SMF...I prefer controlling the instrument's direction myself, and not use a recording of a song to play over. I never use song specific styles, unless I use them for a completely different song.

Maybe it's a fine line for you, but it isn't for me...not one bit.

If you are successful with your method, then that's wonderful and it isn't any less skillful than my method, but, it's certainly not how I want to play an arranger.

Ian

Sorry, but I liked the second a hair more... maybe for that nice swelled snare roll. You've got to try a bit harder to have them at the same volume, though... In general, in most blind listening tests, the louder file will often be perceived as the 'better'.

OK, now I got to the second page... Guess I picked the Korg!

What happened to that snare roll in the conversion? You see, that's what I'm talking about. Yep, back in the good ol' days, things used to convert pretty well. But General MIDI has gone out the window. All the major manufacturers NEW products have kits and sounds and technologies that DO NOT translate.

Drum kits with flams, ruffs and rolls that don't follow any standard, guitar modes that don't translate, Mega Voices - the list of non-GM sounds (which are often the really tasty stuff) keeps growing, and making translation harder and harder. Sure, older legacy stuff still can be tweaked up. But most of the MODERN styles have issues, like that roll, for instance.

BTW, if you want to compare a hair more evenly, turn OFF any mastering EQ and compressors in both units. They color the sound too much, IMO.

On to the next topic...

Guys, there is NO reason why BOTH systems of playback can't be used. Each has its own set of strengths and weaknesses. Anyone that slavishly sticks to one or the other is simply making a philosophical decision, not a MUSICAL one. The endless repetition of arranger style mode, the inability for basslines to go TOWARDS a set of changes, the lack of voice leading in all the other voices, they are as apparent a weakness in that mode as the fixture of chord voices in SMF's. And, yes, styles ARE short triggered MIDI files. While chord changes can be imposed on them, the parts WITHIN the variation remain constant. We still have a long way to go technologically before a true 'musical' randomness can be introduced to the static sequences used to make styles. KARMA is a LONG way away from making musical variation. Sure, it can do random, but MUSICAL variation is anything BUT random!

As Chas kind of points out, NONE of these examples is much of a decent trade off for REAL musicians. We are merely arguing which is slightly LESS 'fake' than the other. Under varying circumstances, BOTH of them can be the more realistic. But that realism NEVER even comes close to true musicians.

And, once again we are discussing the differences between sequences someone ELSE made, and styles someone ELSE made. Either way you cut it, you aren't playing YOUR music. Just using someone else's, in slightly different ways. You want to start a big brouhaha over it, have at it! Just remember, if you didn't make the style or the SMF, you are using someone ELSE'S work, no matter how much of yourself you try to put in it. Neither side has any right to point fingers at the other, IMO.

Me, I use BOTH. And a bunch of self made sequences, and a bunch of just playing live, and a bunch of sequences MADE from styles, and whatever else the job TAKES. And I don't lose a moment's sleep over it! I suggest you all calm down and do the same...

I'm a little puzzled Ian. Disregarding what you are playing with the right hand if you chord a style with the left hand, how is that going to sound different from someone else chording it the same way? I don't see why it would.

And the reason for not having 500 SMFs instead of styles is that SMFs don't respond dynamically to realtime chording like styles do ... you already know that.

Nigel, I suspect that my chord voicings would be (and can be) quite different from Fran's...in fact, much different...that's why we wouldn't sound the same. Plus, we would use fills differently, even endings and intros (which I often re-use throughout a tune)...we both have developed our own technique from so many years playing.

Also, if Fran was using a Roland, and I, a Yamaha, the former does not support rootless voicings...also one of the reasons many jazz players find Roland arrangers lacking...it's fine for most players.

There would be a difference. Trust me.

Ian

I guess I should have clarified my post a bit. What I want to hear when someone offers a comparison is a very-similar style playing the same songs on two different keyboards. For example, how about the song "Until It's Time For Me To Go" by Neil Diamond/Elvis Presley. Select a great waltz style on the G-70 and another on the PA800. Set the EQ's of both keyboards to flat, use the same right hand voices, same tempo, same volume, same everything. Play the songs the same, exact way, using the same fingering technique, etc.. This allows everyone to compare the two keyboards sound engines, individual sound qualities, etc.. What would be so difficult about that.

I thought the original purpose of the post was to demonstrate which keyboard sounded best while playing the same song.Then I quickly discovered I was listening to a GM file, which will always sound best on the keyboard which it was created upon. This essentially tells me nothing about the keyboard's sound engine and what it is capable of providing. I don't know about anyone else on this forum, but I personally, WOULD NOT purchase a keyboard based upon what I heard from a MIDI file. I have, however, purchased several keyboards based upon what I heard from the onboard styles and right-hand voices, mainly because that tells me what it will sound like in MY hands as well.

When Fran made his original post he stated the song was recorded on the G-70 and PA800. In reality, this appears not to be the case. The song was, obviously, a MIDI file that someone else had created as a GM file and played through both keyboards. From MY viewpoint, because of reasons stated earlier, that's not comparing apples to apples. That's why I would like Fran to play the song LIVE. He apparently has both keyboards sitting in his domicile, therefore it should be a piece of cake for him to do this.

Cheers,

Gary

Gary, recorded to me means recorded...as in audio...

A SMF is as fair as it can be...Every company has a GM2 compatible wavetable...that is designed to sound as close as possible to the "standard"..

The Nitelife example was recorded without eq or compression for both keyboards...

Can't be any more apples to apples..

Well said, Gary.

I like your idea as below...

Fran "select a style on the G-70 and another on the PA800. Set the EQ's of both keyboards to flat, use the same right hand voices, same tempo, same volume, same everything. Play the songs the same, exact way, using the same fingering technique, etc.. This allows everyone to compare the two keyboards sound engines, individual sound qualities, etc.. What would be so difficult about that?."

I believe what would be so difficult about that is Fran does most, if not all his songs, over an SMF. Asking him to use "style play" would be beyond what he is used to doing, so I can understand why he is so reticent about making the recording,

It's too bad, because Fran is considered a good player and singer...he has nothing to hide behind. I can't imagine he's refusing because it won't sound good, or he's afraid of being criticized. No one here, that I know, would be unfair to Fran.

I would have enjoyed hearing his style play performances immensely, and I am sure many other SZ'ers would as well.

Plus, we'd hear how these instruments sound in a more natural and realistic situation...very important.

Ian

Gary, I just don't see playing a song like "Until it's time for me to go" would showcase any keyboard comparison...that is why I chose to use a dance tune (SMF)...

Whenever I perform ..playing that tune ...I play rubato , and only piano....for a more expressive feel..

Guys , I can play a melody over chords just like you do..and I can right hand or both hand comp over arranger auto play too...

There is no purpose to illustrate this...and would not give a better comparison from what I posted as examples already...

I want to thank everyone for your help picking a choice from the examples...it helped me decide that I rather carry another 16 pounds of keyboard

The PA800 is up on the chopping block...again..(that means it is for sale)

I didn't even have to get into the harmonizer comparison

Fran,

I had a feeling you'd go with the Roland G-70, even at the beginning of this thread.

I can't see you replacing your G-70 with anything, but, perhaps another G-70, or as you say, a Prelude.

Once you get into a manufacturer's way of doing things, and become really comfortable with the OS, it's kind of hard to warm up much to anything else (I can't imagine a system more intuitive than Yamaha's; that why I use them).

I'm surprised you did not like (or keep) the BK-7m, but, I also understand, it wasn't entirely because of how it sounds.

I thought it sounded better in style play than the G-70, but, sound is very personal, so you might not agree.

It would be nice to see, or hear you perform using style play, but, no pressure from me. I was just interested in your way of doing it.

Ian

Ian, when I play in style play, less is more for me....and I have never liked playing factory one touch settings..I always preferred to have the same band members with me all night

I do play in a different manner than most "arranger" players..I will interact manual bass even when I will be using arranger play...and I always prefer to use the same staple sounds..piano, bass, guitar, organ and of course my "Scat"..

It was never a case of keeping a Korg PA800, over the G70 (I am not a fool)..

It was a case...would I be happy using the PA800 over this summer schedule...and the more I tried too , the short comings to me were becoming more evident...and I wasn't sure it was a compromise I wanted to "live" with...As I said before..if I never owned or played what I already have..I probably would be happy enough to keep the Korg.....I made this same decision a while back with the Tyros3..and prior to that with the E80 (Location of D-beam and 61 keys)..

The hassle to me is not carrying a G70 to one nighters...but I need to use the laptop too..because I need to play band backing tracks (MP3's)...I guess I need to hire an escort to get me thru the CrabTrap crowd....No Ian not that kind of escort..

If it was not for the MP3 player option, I would not have even looked twice at the PA800 for my use...same with the E80, with version2 it had the MP3 player..

What you just said is precisely the reason why I wanted to hear you play using "Style Play"...I know you do things differently, and I wondered how it would sound with your method.

As I said, no pressure...I was just being naturally curious.

It is good you have been able to come to a decision...I was in a quandary about buying a PSR-S910 or a Tyros3...of course, after playing the Tyros4, I was immediately able to make a decision.

Ian

I liked the 2nd one better in every way. I didn't care for the first one, and I liked the 2nd alot...

Which was which?

Also, what was the tune? Disco something. Please let me know because it will bug me until I know!

The second one (which is the G70 I think) sounded much better (full especially the drums). But I think the roland in most cases will sound better for midi playback over the korg. If your mostly using midi the korg is not the one. If your using the keyboard for style play, the korg will hold its own very well, probably better than roland (only because of the newer styles) Its been 4 years since I touched the G70.

Former Korg PA80 & Roland EM2000 owner.

Good luck

I, obviously, disagree. I think the only thing this demonstrated is that the Roland does a better job of playing a GM MIDI file, which everyone already knew.

Gary

Now you tell me!!! You could have saved me all this trouble..


No more concern for me...the PA800 is going to a new home..