There was a lot of controversy about the "Live Concert Grand Piano" when the T3 came out. I didn't always agree with the criticism but after playing it now for almost 2 years and comparing it to the other samples on the T3 I have come to this very subjective conclusion:

"Live Concert Grand": Too bright, light and lacking warmth in the critical middle range despite many attempts at customizing the sample. Sounds best with brightness slightly reduced, a little more reverb and depth ( not much though ) and the modulation wheel pushed slightly forward to damp the sound.

"Live Grand and Warm Grand": These samples are warmer, less ringing in the middle but to me a little over damped and not very open even with reverb added. These I dislike even more than the "Live Concert Grand" (I know many love these but they just don't do it for me)

"Grand Piano": With a slight increase to depth and reverb this is IMHO the best piano voice especially when played full across the entire keyboard or when layered with "Live Strings" ( which I consider the best string sample If you add some reverb and reduce the volume. It really sounds nice

The "POP Piano" is also very nice but again for me not quite as open and warm as the the "Grand Piano". So I'd rate them:

Grand Piano
Pop Piano
Live Concert Grand
Live Grand
Warm Grand

I know piano sound is very subjective but I wanted pass on my specific experiences with Tyros 3. Of course the amps, speakers and in general your sound system will have a significant effect on how the piano voice is reproduced. Piano is one of the most difficult instruments to reproduce. Also from samples I have heard it does not appear that the T4 "Live Concert Grand" overall sound has changed except that SA 2 type nuances have been added. Let me know what you think and what your experiences have been with Tyros Pianos.

joesax

I have the Tyros 2 and really do not like any of the pianos. The least offensive is the "warm piano"

Have either of you thought about using the keyboard's onboard Sound Creator program and editing the piano voice until it sounds the way you wish? It's really not at all difficult.

Cheers,

Gary

Point well taken travlin' easy. I just want stuff to sound good out of the box. I want to sit down and play music; not tweek and mess around with sound creator programs. I well look into it though.

Gary is Spot on....out of the box just doesn't cut it at all..

You can't create warmth where there isn't any without taking brilliance away from where you DO want it.

I'm afraid, in basic terms, the piano sound is either good at virtually the naked sample level, or it isn't. You can't EQ a bad real piano into a good one.

My primary problem I have had with almost ALL Yamaha digital pianos (including some very high end CVP's. etc.) is that the center section lacks warmth at low velocities. Hammer the snot out of them, and they sound great... but play pp passages, or ppp, and I get the impression that rather than listening to a piano right in front of me, played lightly, I am listening to a piano played harder than that, but pushed back a few feet. The tone doesn't 'sing', it decays too quickly at those low velocities.

I regularly play a well maintained, fairly new Yamaha CIIIF at the studio, so I am trying to be fair and balanced, here. Pounded, yes, it cuts like a knife, and works wonderfully well for pop and rock, but back off, and a warmth I never hear from Yamaha's sampled stuff comes out, a delicious blanket of musical glue, that helps tie quiet and loud sections together.

Sampling a piano is possibly the hardest thing to get right. I am surprised that Yamaha, who make some of the finest real pianos, have a problem capturing it adequately.

Making a great acoustic piano and sampling a piano have absolutely nothing to do with eachother. Two completely different technologies that have nothing in common other than they involve the sound of a piano.

they seem to do it very well on their synth line.

they just leave it really weak on the Arrangers and the digital pianos. same goes for the drums...

try the S6 Concert Grand or the S90 Piano on the Motif XF, leaps and bounds ahead of the T4 pianos.

Yes Nick, I totally agree.

I sometimes suspect this is more to do with the arranger having more sounds going whilst the player is playing a piano patch, hence the "thinning" out in the mid-range. Whereas on the Motif's for example, I would guess that the piano sound is mostly played by itself so requires a more robust sample.

Horses for courses I guess

Dennis

Certainly there's a personal aspect to piano sounds that will have very few of us agreeing on what works for us.

I prefer Yamaha's nicely balanced and richly harmonic piano sounds to the wooliness of what's on other arrangers/digital pianos, and I'm very pleased with how they (Yamaha), not only stand on their own for solo work, but also sit perfectly in a mix for combo playing, or for use in an arranger.

Not having played Korg's top and mid line PA-series, I can't compare their sound with what I love in the Yamaha instruments, but I have spent considerable time on the other major brands, and they just don't have anything to compare.

As far as "favorite" pianos on the Yamaha Tyros-series, my "go-to" piano is still, and probably always will be, the Live!Grand Piano. Terrific punch, and a nice long decay, and yet lots of warmth for ballads or jazz...plus, a little tweak on the filter brightness knob (-12)and there's even more delicious warmth if you want it.

The Live! Concert Grand Piano controversy wasn't surprising to me, as it is perhaps my least favorite piano sound on the Tyros3 and Tyros4...in fact, on the latter, it isn't even included in the "Main" panel pianos, having been bumped to the Legacy folder, and replaced by the new Super Articulation Concert Grand, a substantially better voice (in my opinion), but, still not as useful, or as "good" sounding as my favorite, Live! Grand Piano.

I'm also very pleased with Super Articulation Pop Grand, SA Ambient Piano, SA Cocktail Piano, and SA Piano Orchestra.

"Piano sound" discussions are always a series of posts containing very personal ideas (and ideals) of what constitutes a "great" piano sound for each of us...what pleases my ear, may not work for someone else, and what sounds like steel wooliness to me, may be someone else's concept of a perfect tone.

It's simple...choose what suits you...I know I did, and I'm totally content with my choice. I like the Tyros3/4's (and the CVP's) pianos even better than what's on the Motif line, and since they (the latter) seem to be working for many great players like Stevie Wonder, and Doobie Brother, Mike McDonald, I think I'm in fine company.

Ian

It's easy enough to thin out a rich piano into something thinner, an altogether different thing to make a thin piano rich...

Yes, the Yamaha pianos work very well in a mix, but play solo piano on them, they start to show their weaknesses. Better to have a solid solo piano and cut the mids with EQ, that to not have a great solo piano in it at all.

IMO, etc., etc.!

Nah...in my opinion they sound great solo and/or in the mix. I couldn't want for anything better...seriously!

Again, it's always going to be one's personal idea of what constitutes the ideal piano sound.

You like Roland's piano sounds, as per the G-70...I couldn't warm up to any of the pianos on it...they just don't work for my style of playing.

I do remember the Rhodes emulations were rather nice, but the acoustics just didn't have what I like to hear.

I'm spoiled.

Ian

That's what I should have said

Yes, I find this very strange. Why is this?

From what I was lead to believe, the Yamaha samples are based upon Yamaha brand grand pianos, while some others are based upon Steinway and some other top brands. I know there is a significant difference in those two brands because of personal contact.

Now, tuning the piano involves a lot more than changing a couple EQs. There are a myriad of filters, effects, etc... that you can utilize to change the sound dramatically. There is a lady in the UK who is the absolute master of this. Eileen has tuned sax, guitar and piano sounds in many of her converted styles, then saves them as OTS settings. They're wonderful. She is one of my many heroes in this fascinating world of arranger keyboard technology.

I wish I had the playing skills to demonstrate just how great the various instruments can sound. Unfortunately, for the most part I'm a singer/entertainer--not an accomplished player. Therefore, it would really be nice to hear some performance samples from those who are great piano players using various keyboards A/B'd against a real piano and recorded using the same high-quality recording device.

Cheers,

Gary

Good comments on this very subjective topic. I agree with Diki. It's difficult to warm up or fatten up a thin sound. Playing harder is not the answer. I also agree with the concept that these Tyros pianos sound better when played with other instruments or with styles. They certainly sound better to my ears when combined with strings. Anyway, thanks for participating in the discussion. It was very interesting reading all of your viewpoints.

joe

If anyone is interested in doing it, the piano playing MIDI file that Purgatory Creek use file is available on their website. Play it through your arranger's best piano, on default settings and reverb, and upload the audio file here (and to them - I believe they ask for a 192kbps MP3 format, to keep things even)...

It has a wide dynamic, with big strong passages, and small, intimate voicings. A good file for testing all aspects of the sound.

As a Steinway B Grand owner, I'm admittedly spoiled by it's rich sound and beautiful harmonic overtones so well suited to classical repertoire, and generally dislike the colder "clinical sound" of Yamaha "acoustic" grands. Considering this, I really like Tyros 4's new "SA Concert Grand". It's perhaps the first of all the Yamaha Tyros Piano voices that I'm very happy with. Strangely enough, other than it included in the name, I can't figure out where its super articulation comes in. With all the different Tyros 4 pianos voices to choose from (SA Concert Grand, Live GrandPiano, Super Articulation Pop Grand, SA Ambient Piano, SA Cocktail Piano, SA Piano Orchestra, etc) and the ability to easily mix, match & layer: via RH 1,2,3, everyone should be able to easily come up with a Tyros 4 piano to their personal liking for any playing scenerio from solo to big band.

Scott can you post some short examples of the Steinway you have vs Tyros 4 Pianos.....just to hear the differences and how close Yamaha has created their Piano samples?

No, and It wouldn't make a difference if I did either, because sound stage and room ambience dramatically alter one's perception of the character of a given sound. There,s really no way to compare the experience of the live sound emunating from the soundboard of an acousric grand piano into a room with even the best recorded sound heard from 2 speakers. As much as I'm satisfied with the Tyros 4's SA Concert Grand voice sample, it can't compare with a real Steinway or even the recording of one. Go to Steinway Hall in NYC or a piano store and play a Yamaha acoustic grand next to a Steinway acoustic Grand and you'll easily hear the difference in the distinct character of each brand. Yamaha doesn't include a Steinway sample in T4 afterall. That said, rumor has it that a Tyros 4 UVN "3rd party sample" offering of a Steinway Grand may be in the works. If and when that becomes available, that may offer a better "apples to apples" piano sample comparison.

Gary,
Does Eileen sell any tutorials/CD's to help others do what she has learned??

OK, no problem I think you answered my question very well. And yes I used to work in NYC for many years and have been to the Steinway store on 57th St. & Steinway Hall to hear the different model pianos....a mind blowing experience and would recomend it to everyone at least once in their lifetime to experience.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steinway_Hall

http://www.steinwayshowrooms.com/steinway-hall

Lee:

If you go to www.yamahapkowner.com

you will find some DVD's Eileen sells. I'm n not sure if they address the voice tuning but they do address Tyros operation and use.

As Joe said, I'm not sure if she addresses that aspect in detail. You would have to contact her to find out.

Gary

Thing is, even compared to YAMAHA acoustic pianos, Yamaha arranger pianos lose something, Scott. Sure, it's not as big as from Yamaha to Steinway, but that all important center area where you do most of your comping, that's the area I find the most difference.

Plus, I play the CIIIF in a dead studio, so I'm not having the room really affect things too much. From G an octave and a half below middle C to the G an octave and a half above, that's a CRITICAL 3 octave area for comping, and IMO generally the weakest area in ANY piano sample set. Trust me, I'm not on a Yamaha bashfest. Even most Roland pianos, Korg pianos, you name it (even a bunch of VSTi pianos) have problems here.

BTW, how many vel-splits do all these Yamaha arranger sets have? That, IMO, makes the biggest difference, as you aren't trying to emulate timbral changes with programming, you get it in the raw sample. I can't WAIT to try that KRONOS 12-layer one!

I really hope the Kronos's SSHD sample streaming becomes the industry standard. That's going to revolutionize piano sounds...