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#316356 - 02/13/11 02:14 PM Re: Pa3x new video for all Italians [Re: Diki]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10596
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Originally Posted By: Diki
I think that, if you are intimately familiar with a piece of kit, small changes will be more exaggerated than to the less familiar listener. To be honest, as a non-Yamaha user, the differences between the T3 and T4 are FAR subtler, from what I have heard so far (including Yamaha's demos) than Ian perceives.

Now, that is NOT to say they aren't there, just that you need a fair amount of familiarity just to hear them.

I can hear differences between E80 and G70 renditions fairly well.


Although it might be difficult to pull off, considering you are living in a place that doesn't seem to cater very well to arranger buyers/users, I can almost be sure, that if you played the Tyros3 side by side with a Tyros4, you would easily pick up the significant changes in the latter, as I suspect you have a finer tuned ear than most.

Of course, unless your situation gets better, you might not ever get the opportunity.

I have played an E-80 and a G-70, but not side by side, so I can only say, that you may be right in that, being mostly a Yamaha player/user, that I would find very little differnces, because I did find very little differences.

Maybe, if I had played one after the other, I might have noticed more, particularly, if you, or another Roland aficionado, were to point out what to look for (or, in this case, to listen for).

In the Tyros3 vs Tyros4, the most significant thing I can hear, is a distinctly "sweeter" (my word for "more detailed") sound overall (especially OOTB)...also, most of the SA2 voices that were carried over, seem to have been tweaked to respond better to the player's technique and/or the SA2 buttons, so actually playing the instruments in question is important is discerning the differences.

And, that takes us back to your dilemma with no access to new TOTL arrangers...

I hope it improves, my friend.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#316358 - 02/13/11 02:28 PM Re: Pa3x new video for all Italians [Re: Saswick]
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
But if you HAVE to put two arrangers side to side before the differences become apparent, well, IMO that just means that yes, the differences ARE pretty subtle.

And, if Yamaha would allow FULL access to the SA programing parameters, you wouldn't even HAVE to change to a new arranger for that particular feature... wink

But you know me.... I only change gear when the differences are WAY past subtle..! Night and day between the G1000 and the G70. And my NEXT arranger will need to have at least that degree of difference before I drop a perfectly good arranger to buy another!

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#316364 - 02/13/11 02:48 PM Re: Pa3x new video for all Italians [Re: Diki]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10596
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Originally Posted By: Diki
But if you HAVE to put two arrangers side to side before the differences become apparent, well, IMO that just means that yes, the differences ARE pretty subtle.



Well, you really HAVE to put two arrangers side by side to compare them...trying to discern any differences on web demos alone, or trying to remember what one sounded like days or months after the initial playing, seems a tad inaccurate, to be kind.

Although the differences may seem subtle to you (Fran noticed a big difference), until you actually play them side by side, you are...well, you know.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#316366 - 02/13/11 02:58 PM Re: Pa3x new video for all Italians [Re: Saswick]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 4906
Loc: English Riviera, UK
How you perceive sound makes a big difference

I always found that apart from the SA2 voices, the T3 was a far inferior sounding Arranger compared to the T2, (A very compressed MP3 type sound) whereas the T4 is a worthy replacement for it, and easily blows the T3 out of the water. (Night & Day difference for me)

The E80 and G70 also have a quite large sound difference, with the E80 having a much smother (Yamaha type) sound compared to the live sound of the G70.

BTW. The PA800 is not a 61 note version of a PA2x, as it has quite a bit missing compared to the PA2x.

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#316369 - 02/13/11 03:20 PM Re: Pa3x new video for all Italians [Re: Saswick]
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Sorry, Ian, but, as I said, if you HAVE to compare them side by side, the difference isn't big enough for me to care about it!

Thing that strikes me is, to be honest, what has changed between the T3 and the T4 that ISN'T simply tweaking? Tweaked sounds, tweaked styles, and a tweaked EQ system (doubt the D/A is a totally new unit), then just a FEW new sounds and styles.

If Yamaha allowed the same access to the voice programming that Korg do, it might be possible to either tweak those sounds yourself, or simply load in new sounds and styles, and get much of the T4's improvement without paying through the nose. At least with the ability to do this, owners would be able to make up their minds whether the few new sounds and the few new styles would be sufficient to make the jump all by themselves.

Yes, I realize the T4 has updated its VH, but it is still woefully short of a dedicated VH. But apart from that, what's even slightly updated?

http://pianoandsynth.com/yamaha-tyros-comparison-tyros4-v-tyros3-v-tyros2

Not a whole lot to justify another $3500 outlay, IMO, if only Yamaha would let you access the tweaking parameters that they obviously have in-house. Same sound sounds better on the T4? Well, they CERTAINLY didn't go and record new samples! If it's better, it's because of tweaks. Tweaks WE are not allowed to make.

No doubt, some MORE tweaks will be made on the T5, and then sold to us with a few more sounds and styles for $3500. In the meantime, if only Yamaha had Korg's depth of editing, all of those with T3's could sound JUST as good as a T5, especially if Yamaha sold the new SA2/3 voices as sampler loads (at a nice profit!).

Bottom line is, put a T3 style in a T4, just how different REALLY do they sound? Put a G1000 style in my G70, it's night and day. THAT'S what I'm looking for!

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#316384 - 02/13/11 04:04 PM Re: Pa3x new video for all Italians [Re: Diki]
124 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/01/09
Posts: 2075
And here again, we come into the differing marketing angles of Yamaha and Korg. It's widely accepted that Yamaha are not interested in selling to 'tweakers'. Much easier to get their intended 'home' players to pony up the cash for an all-new, shiny, OOTB unit. Dedicated Korgies are still finding tweaks in their i30's, Pa1X's, 2X's, 800's. Horses for courses, and all that.

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#316387 - 02/13/11 04:19 PM Re: Pa3x new video for all Italians [Re: Saswick]
Robbo Offline
Member

Registered: 07/31/08
Posts: 564
Loc: Ballarat, Victoria, Australia
Went to Melb Australia on Sat and changed my T3 for a T4, I can tell you this is the big brother. The sounds are incredible, no need to tweek involved here, they have got it right, the Vocal harmonizer although major improve over prev models, has this fazing sound which I don't like, so will continue to use the Voice Live 2, The Audya will hold for sometime as it has some very great bass and drums, however the base and drums on the T4 have improved enormously, suffice that real change from performance from Audya to T4 is a reality now. Yes has less keys, but the weight reduction and the extra features make it a worthy challenger. Will hope that Audya come to the fore soon and improve a very good product once again, but it needs major ups this year to keep it in contention.

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#316388 - 02/13/11 04:20 PM Re: Pa3x new video for all Italians [Re: Diki]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10596
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Originally Posted By: Diki
Sorry, Ian, but, as I said, if you HAVE to compare them side by side, the difference isn't big enough for me to care about it!



Whatever makes you happy, buddy...personally, I'd prefer to compare side by side, and actually playing the instruments instead of guessing.

You see, I am not the only person to perceive a big difference in T3 and T4, there are many, which include some who use and play other brands, as well as Yamaha...of course, these people played and compared the T3 to T4.

But, as always, your idea will work best...for you.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#316419 - 02/13/11 10:21 PM Re: Pa3x new video for all Italians [Re: Saswick]
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Heard all the Yamaha high quality demos. You saying the difference is so subtle, not even THESE should be sufficient to make it obvious? Little point to them posting them, is there?

You and I both know how many people change their arrangers, not so much because of a REAL need, but just to feel comfortable in having whatever is the newest kid on the block... You even eschewed the far more capable T3 yourself while touting the S910 as the be all and end all. And defended that choice when others asked why.

Look, I know you are having a lot of fun at my expense because there are no Tyros dealers in my area, but you yourself have made many a pronouncement without having the opportunity to play the unit yourself. As long as there are high quality demos up on the web, playing IS just listening. After all, if I play a T4 or just listen to Yamaha's official audio demos, I'll still be HEARING the same thing, won't I?

Please don't make me go back and find quote after quote where you had opinions about keyboards you haven't played. Allow others the same rights you claim for yourself.

To be honest, all I still seem to be hearing from the T4 comments is 'this is the keyboard the T3 was SUPPOSED to be', the tweaks have made a big improvement, etc., etc.. Tweaks.

Look, I'm prepared to eat my words. The Yamaha T2 site did some great advertising by playing the T1 playing a style, then that same style played on the T2. There was a sufficient improvement that it was pretty obvious. But I noticed Yamaha no longer going that route when the T3 took over from the T2, and, unless I've missed a page somewhere, the T4 from the T3. Maybe you could do the same thing..? If the engine and underlying parameters are THAT much improved, play a T3 style in a T3, and the same T3 style in the T4. Let's hear it...

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#316423 - 02/13/11 11:46 PM Re: Pa3x new video for all Italians [Re: Diki]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10596
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Originally Posted By: Diki
Heard all the Yamaha high quality demos. You saying the difference is so subtle, not even THESE should be sufficient to make it obvious? Little point to them posting them, is there?

After all, if I play a T4 or just listen to Yamaha's official audio demos, I'll still be HEARING the same thing, won't I?



Why would I tell you the difference is more than just subtle if it isn't?

It is only by playing the two that you can hear and feel the more than subtle difference, as I had already said that not only is the overall sound sweeter and more detailed, the voices, especially SA2, responded better to the player's input/technique.

Look, I'm not trying to sell you on a T4...they'll sell like hotcakes whether you think they are much better than the T3 or not...I'm just relating my own personal experience; you can choose to believe it or not. Consider also, that my observations are not isolated...several others here on SZ encountered the same things upon playing the instrument.

If you do get a chance to try both, or even just a Tyros4, then you'll understand what I'm talking about.

If not...well, life goes on.

Ian

PS...by the way, I chose the S910 over the Tyros3 mainly because the sound is sweeter to my ears...I couldn't get the Tyros3 to sound like that, although many people still chose the latter and really liked it very much...including the guy who bought my demo.

_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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