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#313199 - 01/20/11 10:20 AM
Re: When Arrangers Go Away
[Re: hammer]
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Senior Member
Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
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If in the future a TOTL arranger could not be bought what workstation would you replace your gig setup with and why?
hammer My quick response would be a Roland XP80...why? Because it worked for me before...76 good feel semi weighted keys, decent sounds, expansion boards, multiple zones, decent sequencer,,could be programmed to use as drums, bass, piano and color sound on a pedal..all the ingredients I need... But, PLEASE don't take away my G70... 
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#313203 - 01/20/11 11:04 AM
Re: When Arrangers Go Away
[Re: hammer]
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14194
Loc: NW Florida
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If I was still looking for some kind of automatic accompaniment, I would simply move downmarket if only TOTL arrangers were not available. Most of the MOTL or even BOTL arrangers are pretty decent, nowadays... But if I had to move away from an arranger altogether, I'd definitely want to check out the Kronos. Karma, with the right programming and content, is starting to look like a workable alternative. If I had to go with something available NOW, then the MoXF with the Karma software seems workable, too. But, bottom line, if TOTL arrangers disappeared overnight (like what happened to Roland!), in fact if ALL arrangers disappeared overnight, I already HAVE an arranger that will keep me satisfied for the rest of my life. Got TWO, actually! 
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#313209 - 01/20/11 11:23 AM
Re: When Arrangers Go Away
[Re: Diki]
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
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Never say never, Donny! If we can't GROW the arranger market, all it can do is shrink. The sooner the open arranger reaches fruition, the better! Nobody seems to be doing anything with a TOTL arranger that would attract an under 30 year old away from a WS (or even an under 40, maybe!), and none of us are getting any younger!
Either the arranger goes for the younger crowd, or things end up like 'home organs', super-expensive niche products for ailing geriatrics or the tiny few aficionados. Hmmmmm ? seems to me the arranger situation at this time is just a replacement for the HOME ORGAN (Lowery accmp)market of the 60's/70's/80's as it is now less the Wood ... I've been in this game way before arrangers were introduced and survived no problem on stage with just programing backing tracks & playing on top for many years....sooo if the eventual demise of the arranger is evident in our lifetime I say bring it On......styles ...backing tracks who cares I know I can play and make good music either way.........with the repetitious sound of arranger styles I sometimes think of returning to they way it used to be where you could program tracks, and kool basslines, etc.... The Motif, & Kronos, have enough tools to really make this a very good alternative.
Edited by Dnj (01/20/11 11:24 AM)
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#313213 - 01/20/11 11:40 AM
Re: When Arrangers Go Away
[Re: hammer]
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
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Whatever happens, I'd be content with one of the current crop of arrangers for the rest of my playing days...either a Yamaha PSR-S910 (or the next S-series) or a Yamaha Tyros4, which I am seriously considering, now that my demo Tyros3 is sold. I'd also be quite happy with a Tyros3 or Tyros2. I don't want a workstation  ...I'm VERY lazy, and they are too much work; hence the word "work" in their name. If I really had to do without an arranger, I'd go the Band In A Box route. Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.
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#313218 - 01/20/11 11:54 AM
Re: When Arrangers Go Away
[Re: keybplayer]
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14194
Loc: NW Florida
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Nobody, at the height of the home organ reign, EVER thought they would one day go away. Anyone that thinks that arrangers are 'future-proof' would be well advised to consider this.
No-one can predict what will happen down the pike, but one thing is for certain. If a keyboard doesn't help you make the kind of music YOU want to play, you don't buy it. And arrangers in their current form do VERY little for someone that likes modern music... and are a VERY poor substitute for a WS with arp and loop capabilities, for someone that performs arp and loop based music (which is what a majority of modern music IS).
Either the arranger morphs, or WS's take over. None of us are going to live forever! They still MAKE home organs... But they are out of reach price-wise for most, not because of how intrinsically expensive they are, but the tiny size of the market rules out economy of scale. Unless we want the arranger to go down this path (and the ever spiraling upwards prices for TOTL arrangers, compared to TOTL WS's, that we have been seeing is an indicator it is already happening) the arranger MUST start to incorporate loops and arps, and deliver content that a 20 year old wouldn't feel embarrassed playing to his friends.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#313221 - 01/20/11 11:58 AM
Re: When Arrangers Go Away
[Re: Diki]
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
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Nobody, at the height of the home organ reign, EVER thought they would one day go away. Anyone that thinks that arrangers are 'future-proof' would be well advised to consider this.
No-one can predict what will happen down the pike, but one thing is for certain. If a keyboard doesn't help you make the kind of music YOU want to play, you don't buy it. And arrangers in their current form do VERY little for someone that likes modern music... and are a VERY poor substitute for a WS with arp and loop capabilities, for someone that performs arp and loop based music (which is what a majority of modern music IS).
Either the arranger morphs, or WS's take over. None of us are going to live forever! They still MAKE home organs... But they are out of reach price-wise for most, not because of how intrinsically expensive they are, but the tiny size of the market rules out economy of scale. Unless we want the arranger to go down this path (and the ever spiraling upwards prices for TOTL arrangers, compared to TOTL WS's, that we have been seeing is an indicator it is already happening) the arranger MUST start to incorporate loops and arps, and deliver content that a 20 year old wouldn't feel embarrassed playing to his friends. That makes sense .....or just buy both ...nothing wrong with having an Arranger KB and a Workstaion like the Kronos/Motif also best of both worlds ......why would someone have 5 or 6 arrangers in their house anyway??
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#313245 - 01/20/11 01:11 PM
Re: When Arrangers Go Away
[Re: Diki]
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
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Unless we want the arranger to go down this path (and the ever spiraling upwards prices for TOTL arrangers, compared to TOTL WS's, that we have been seeing is an indicator it is already happening) the arranger MUST start to incorporate loops and arps, and deliver content that a 20 year old wouldn't feel embarrassed playing to his friends. Already lower end (and more affordable for younger players) PSR are using arpeggiators, and a use real time control over ADSR. Eventually this will end up on the higher end product; or, at least it should (can't see why not). Styles still tend to lag behind current trends...overcoming that would help as well. Casio seems to cater to that younger buyer better with each iteration of arranger, and piano-based arrangers...Yamaha less so, at least for now(although the PSR is getting better), but, competition has this wonderful side effect of making (more like forcing) companies shape up. I could easily use an S910 and/or Tyros4 for my very last arranger...I'd just order a service manual, and several key contact strips...keep me in great shape for a long time. Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.
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#313247 - 01/20/11 01:19 PM
Re: When Arrangers Go Away
[Re: hammer]
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Senior Member
Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 2417
Loc: CA
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Workstations are pretty easy to figure out hammer. My Roland Fantom G7 has a huge lcd screen which provides a lot of data information on any given screen menu. Workstations biggest assets are "professional" sounds and the ability to "craft" your own custom sounds plus a dedicated Sampler on board. I believe the Korg Pa3X has a sampler also though too. I know it has the ability to play and manipulate audio i.e. MP3 files but I think you can also sample and edit sounds on it as well. I'll have to check the specs again on the Pa3X to make sure though. On the other hand, the Yamaha Tyros 4 doesn't have a real sampler on board, which most arrangers don't by the way. The main thing that workstations still lack of course is "full" arranger capability and features such as intro's/endings, style auto-accompaniment, registration feature, song book, harmonizer, lyrics/chord display, etc. On the other hand, the main thing that hinders arrangers, in my opinion, is the mechanical style repetition that make arrangers sound - canned - thus restricting 'natural' rhythm and beat like you would achieve from a real live band feel and sound. The Ketron Audya was suppose to help bridge that gap somewhat with a more randomized style accompaniment but I'm not sure how effective the results have been so far. I noticed that the Korg Pa3X doesn't seem to address that limitation either. Oh well. Hopefully the next generaion of arrangers from the Big Three will. At a reasonable price point too hopefully. Unlike the Ketron Audya unfortunately. All the best, Mike
_________________________
Yamaha Genos, Mackie HR824 MKII Studio Monitors, Mackie 1202 VLZ Pro Mixer (made in USA), Cakewalk Sonar Platinum, Shure SM58 vocal mic.
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#313263 - 01/20/11 03:06 PM
Re: When Arrangers Go Away
[Re: hammer]
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15560
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
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Ian, I agree with most everything you said above, but--if I had to do without an arranger I would just stop performing. With an arranger I'm having more fun than I could ever ask for, while a work station is just what it is termed--WORK! I don't want to work--I just like having lots of fun and getting paid for it. That's why I go sailing and write magazine articles about boating--I'm having fun, and I'm getting paid to do it. Cheers, Gary 
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!
K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)
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#313269 - 01/20/11 03:47 PM
Re: When Arrangers Go Away
[Re: Dnj]
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14194
Loc: NW Florida
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Workstations are pretty easy to figure out hammer. On the other hand, the main thing that hinders arrangers, in my opinion, is the mechanical style repetition that make arrangers sound - canned - thus restricting 'natural' rhythm and beat like you would achieve from a real live band feel and sound. Mike There in lies the biggest problem...key word "REPETITIOS" ! The thing is, although KARMA is promoted to be the answer to this, it isn't, really... at least, not for real live music. While it does add a quasi-random variation on any specific part, it doesn't really follow real world rules for that 'randomness'. In real life, musicians vary their parts with some pretty specific behaviors. It isn't 'random' in any sense of the word. And each instrument does different things idiomatically. KARMA is a 'start', but there is much to be done before this begins to sound like real players. It's great for arpeggio's and the like, but I have yet to hear KARMA make a guitar part expand on itself and remain sounding like a guitar part except for the simplest of things. My ideal would be to have a style where each part, each variation, was played first very simply, then very complex, and then the arranger figure out the steps in between. Then have that respond to whether YOU are playing very simply or complex (and offer an inverse function, so as you get busier, the arranger gets a bit simpler) and have it sort of go along with you. In truth, many of our objections to the repetitive nature of arrangers comes from just how FEW of our styles do anything more than four bar loops (or shorter!), despite being capable of having them MUCH longer. I know Korg is one of the best at this, but so much more could be done. Imagine a 16 bar loop, where each time you fill, it could come back in at the 4, 8 or 12 bar boundary randomly, and loop from there, too... Not that difficult to program, really. There are simpler, more MUSICAL solutions to be found than KARMA, I think.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#313297 - 01/20/11 08:38 PM
Re: When Arrangers Go Away
[Re: ianmcnll]
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
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Hi Ian , me too. The last workstation I owned was the Korg O1W. They have no doubt improved since then. I'm going back to 1992/93. I owned it up untill I bought my korg i2 keyboard. Only thing I did with it was load & edit midifiles. I had the technical knowledge to know how to multitrack record etc but not the musical creativity to produce a finished song. Hence, I use arranger keyboards. For precisely the above reason, I probably wouldn't buy another workstation. If arranger keyboards dissapeared off the planet earth today, I'd be more than content using Band in a Box/Real Band. In the last couple of years or so , it's gone ahead in leaps & bounds. Hadn't realized to what extent until a few months ago when i upgraded my laptop. The audio loops it now uses for some of it's styles ( mainly country , rock & jazz ) make backing tracks sound a lot better than they did when purely midi tracks were used for styles. The majority are still midi styles or a mix of audio & midi. The good part is PG, keeps adding more of these audio styles with each upgrade. They're certainly not free, but I don't mind spending $100 or so a couple of times a year to get an upgraded version of the program , plus a heap of new files. So, with a synth or keyboard controller plus software synths, I'd get along quite nicely.
If I really had to do without an arranger, I'd go the Band In A Box route.
Ian
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki 🧸
Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022
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#313298 - 01/20/11 08:57 PM
Re: When Arrangers Go Away
[Re: hammer]
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Senior Member
Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 2417
Loc: CA
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Correction on the Pa3X. It does NOT have an on board Sampler. Sequencer yes, Sampler... sorry. Which is one more example of an arranger not having a full featured sampler that is usually included in most, if not all, totl traditional workstations. What some of you might not realize is that traditional workstations e.g. the Roland Fantom G, Yammie Motif XF, etc. are plug and play just like your typical arranger. You turn it on and start playing. When you want to include the additional "benefits" of comprehensive sound editing and sampler capability the workstation can provide that too. My Fantom G can also layer up to 8 different sounds together at one time which is a plus for those times when you might need a rich complexity in your sound on occasion. I can also split sounds along the keyboard eight ways. Favorite sounds can be recalled at the touch of a button and I can hold the keys down and transition to another sound, seamlessly, without any disruption in sound etc., etc., etc. I'm sure the Motif XF and Korg KRONOS both have a multitude of similar high end features as well. Arrangers as we know have auto-accompaniment that assists you with your playing to give you that one-man-band (OMB) ability whereas workstations don't of course. But workstations are just as easy to play as any arranger. The main difference being that the auto-accompaniment of arrangers makes one person sound like a whole band whereas workstations are generally used for use "in" a band with other band members and where the songs that are played don't sound repetitious, canned and/or artificial. But if you belong to a band, and gig, you'll obviously have to split the money proceeds amongst the other band members. Arranger gigging proceeds go to just one person - Don Mason. In other words just the arranger player since you cut out the middle man. Sounds good to me. I'm waiting for the day when arrangers from the Big Three provide more of a "free flow" sound such as the Audya tries to accomplish. But I don't want to spend $5,000 + tax to gain that privilege.  Call me cheap, call me frugal, call me miserly, call me wise beyond my years  - nah uh... won't do it. Kudos to DonM for biting the bullet and taking out that second mortgage and forking over the big bucks for the Audya but if I was to spend $5,500 i.e. ($5,000 + tax) on an arranger it should also cook breakfast, vacuum the floors and take out the garbage too. Maybe some day right? lol PS: Just kidding Don. And I'm sure you've already recouped most of your investment by now because of your frequent gigging schedule. At least I hope so anyway. $5,500 is a lot of clams huh? I'm sure the Audya is worth it to you though. All the best, Mike
_________________________
Yamaha Genos, Mackie HR824 MKII Studio Monitors, Mackie 1202 VLZ Pro Mixer (made in USA), Cakewalk Sonar Platinum, Shure SM58 vocal mic.
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#313299 - 01/20/11 09:18 PM
Re: When Arrangers Go Away
[Re: rikkisbears]
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
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Hi Ian ,
me too.
I had the technical knowledge to know how to multi track record etc but not the musical creativity to produce a finished song.
Hence, I use arranger keyboards.
For precisely the above reason, I probably wouldn't buy another workstation.
If arranger keyboards disappeared off the planet earth today, I'd be more than content using Band in a Box/Real Band. In the last couple of years or so , it's gone ahead in leaps & bounds.
Hadn't realized to what extent until a few months ago when i upgraded my laptop. The audio loops it now uses for some of it's styles ( mainly country , rock & jazz ) make backing tracks sound a lot better than they did when purely midi tracks were used for styles. The majority are still midi styles or a mix of audio & midi. The good part is PG, keeps adding more of these audio styles with each upgrade. They're certainly not free, but I don't mind spending $100 or so a couple of times a year to get an upgraded version of the program , plus a heap of new files.
So, with a synth or keyboard controller plus software synths, I'd get along quite nicely.
I'm much the same, Rikki...I can use a workstation, but, I really wouldn't want to. I used one of the very first versions of Band In The Box, many years ago when working in Newfoundland...it was impressive back then, and now, it is a real mind-blowing program. Only thing is it's not in real time, but it is still a lot more fun than a workstation...they are boring to me, and as you say, I'm not that creative with them either. Plus, in my case, I'm very lazy as well.  After my year's financial check-up, I may invest in the latest BIAB. I've read your glowing appreciation of it, and agree wholeheartedly. Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.
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#313300 - 01/20/11 09:27 PM
Re: When Arrangers Go Away
[Re: keybplayer]
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Senior Member
Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
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Correction on the Pa3X. It does NOT have an on board Sampler. Sequencer yes, Sampler... sorry. Which is one more example of an arranger not having a full featured sampler that is usually included in most, if not all, totl traditional workstations. What some of you might not realize is that traditional workstations e.g. the Roland Fantom G, Yammie Motif XF, etc. are plug and play just like your typical arranger. You turn it on and start playing. When you want to include the additional "benefits" of comprehensive sound editing and sampler capability the workstation can provide that too. My Fantom G can also layer up to 8 different sounds together at one time which is a plus for those times when you might need a rich complexity in your sound on occasion. I can also split sounds along the keyboard eight ways. Favorite sounds can be recalled at the touch of a button and I can hold the keys down and transition to another sound, seamlessly, without any disruption in sound etc., etc., etc. I'm sure the Motif XF and Korg KRONOS both have a multitude of similar high end features as well. Arrangers as we know have auto-accompaniment that assists you with your playing to give you that one-man-band (OMB) ability whereas workstations don't of course. But workstations are just as easy to play as any arranger. The main difference being that the auto-accompaniment of arrangers makes one person sound like a whole band whereas workstations are generally used for use "in" a band with other band members and where the songs that are played don't sound repetitious, canned and/or artificial. But if you belong to a band, and gig, you'll obviously have to split the money proceeds amongst the other band members. Arranger gigging proceeds go to just one person - Don Mason. In other words just the arranger player since you cut out the middle man. Sounds good to me. I'm waiting for the day when arrangers from the Big Three provide more of a "free flow" sound such as the Audya tries to accomplish. But I don't want to spend $5,000 + tax to gain that privilege. Call me cheap, call me frugal, call me miserly, call me wise beyond my years - nah uh... won't do it. Kudos to DonM for biting the bullet and taking out that second mortgage and forking over the big bucks for the Audya but if I was to spend $5,500 i.e. ($5,000 + tax) on an arranger it should also cook breakfast, vacuum the floors and take out the garbage too. Maybe some day right? lol PS: Just kidding Don. And I'm sure you've already recouped most of your investment by now because of your frequent gigging schedule. At least I hope so anyway. $5,500 is a lot of clams huh? I'm sure the Audya is worth it to you though. All the best, Mike Mike, yes the Audya was expensive but it wasn't THAT expensive. I'm certain you can buy one for around $4,500. DonM
_________________________
DonM
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#313306 - 01/20/11 10:19 PM
Re: When Arrangers Go Away
[Re: travlin'easy]
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Member
Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 892
Loc: Baltimore, MD USA
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Ian, I agree with most everything you said above, but--if I had to do without an arranger I would just stop performing. With an arranger I'm having more fun than I could ever ask for, while a work station is just what it is termed--WORK! I don't want to work--I just like having lots of fun and getting paid for it. That's why I go sailing and write magazine articles about boating--I'm having fun, and I'm getting paid to do it. Cheers, Gary This pretty much sums it up for me. I could always go back to playing piano, or keyboard and keyboard bass with a drum machine, but that sounds too much like work, and I'm much more into the having fun category. I think I have enough arrangers at the moment to last me for as long as I want to keep performing, or should I say, having fun. Joe
_________________________
PSR S950, PSR S900, Roland RD 700, Yamaha C3 6'Grand, Sennheiser E 935 mic, several recording mics including a Neuman U 87, Bose L1 Compact, Roland VS 2480 24 Track Recorder Joe Ayala
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#313308 - 01/20/11 10:25 PM
Re: When Arrangers Go Away
[Re: travlin'easy]
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
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Ian, I agree with most everything you said above, but--if I had to do without an arranger I would just stop performing. With an arranger I'm having more fun than I could ever ask for, while a work station is just what it is termed--WORK! I don't want to work--I just like having lots of fun and getting paid for it. That's why I go sailing and write magazine articles about boating--I'm having fun, and I'm getting paid to do it. Cheers, Gary Yes, I'd wouldn't be performing either, Gary...at least, not in the same way. I do love to play solo piano, but I wouldn't want to do it as a job.  Arrangers do make playing fun..that's why it's called "playing". Workstations are just too damn tedious for me. Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.
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#313309 - 01/20/11 10:36 PM
Re: When Arrangers Go Away
[Re: ianmcnll]
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
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Hi Ian, actually PG must have a lot of faith in their program, they currently don't have a demo version because of the huge audio file library, they gave a 30 day money back guarantee instead. ( don't know if there's any fine print involved haahaa ) http://www.pgmusic.com/salesfaq1.htm#3It together with Real Band sequencer is a good combination. ( they're both part of the same package). Real Band is similar to their Powertracks sequencer, with one big exception, Real Band can generate a BIAB style track ( based on the song's chord progression) wheras Powertracks can't. In short, you could actually load in a midifile, ( it will create a chord track if the midifile hasn't got one ). Then if you wanted to replace just say a guitar track, with a Real Track audio file, you choose the one you want, press generate, and it creates a guitar part, based on the chords in your chord track. You could replace drums or bass or anything, provided you find one that suits of course. From reading some of the comments, the guys create the song in Band in a Box ( ie just type in chord progression , pick style parts etc , then load it into Real Band for fine tuning, then you can save it as an mp3. As you said, the one big draw back is it can't be played in realtime, but, playing along to a backing track ( music minus one, I think Scott called it) is fun also. I'm much the same, Rikki...I can use a workstation, but, I really wouldn't want to. I used one of the very first versions of Band In The Box, many years ago when working in Newfoundland...it was impressive back then, and now, it is a real mind-blowing program. Only thing is it's not in real time, but it is still a lot more fun than a workstation...they are boring to me, and as you say, I'm not that creative with them either. Plus, in my case, I'm very lazy as well. After my year's financial check-up, I may invest in the latest BIAB. I've read your glowing appreciation of it, and agree wholeheartedly. Ian [/quote]
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best wishes
Rikki 🧸
Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022
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#313339 - 01/21/11 03:32 AM
Re: When Arrangers Go Away
[Re: hammer]
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14194
Loc: NW Florida
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The thing about an onboard sampler is, nowadays, few actually USE the sampler as a 'sampler'. Few record the sounds using the sampler any more. It's so much easier and more convenient to use a digital recorder, DAW, field recorder, whatever, and then fly the samples into the keyboard AFTER you have done your layout and even maybe some basic programming and looping them in a nice, big-screened computer.
All a sampler on an arranger really needs to do, for probably about 99% of us here, is load in sounds the arranger doesn't already have. This is where the flexibility of access to different multisample formats is critically important. Yamaha's loses a LOT of it's usefulness by arbitrarily restricting its multisample import to its own proprietary (and somewhat underwhelmingly supported) format, ignoring Akai, Soundfont, and GIGA formats.
Korg improve a bit by adding Akai, though. With sampler RAM being at a premium, those older Akai libraries are our best bet for fitting as many good sounds in as we can (they used to have a 32MB limit on RAM in older Akai's, so sound design was RAM efficient, usually), and this format should be on as a minimum, IMO.
But we have gone beyond the old school sampling in the sampler itself for most practical purposes.
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#313385 - 01/21/11 12:30 PM
Re: When Arrangers Go Away
[Re: miden]
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 1264
Loc: United Kingdom
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