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#311054 - 05/31/10 02:57 AM About hardware experiments..
LIONSTRACS Offline
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Registered: 12/13/05
Posts: 664
Loc: Italy
Deleted as request..

[This message has been edited by LIONSTRACS (edited 05-31-2010).]

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#311055 - 05/31/10 03:55 AM Re: About hardware experiments..
AFG Music Offline
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Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Deleted as request..

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 05-31-2010).]

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#311056 - 05/31/10 04:14 AM Re: About hardware experiments..
LIONSTRACS Offline
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Registered: 12/13/05
Posts: 664
Loc: Italy
.

[This message has been edited by LIONSTRACS (edited 05-31-2010).]

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#311057 - 05/31/10 04:20 AM Re: About hardware experiments..
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Deleted as request..

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 05-31-2010).]

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#311058 - 05/31/10 05:41 AM Re: About hardware experiments..
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Deleted as request..

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 05-31-2010).]

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#311059 - 05/31/10 08:48 AM Re: About hardware experiments..
Irishacts Offline
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Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Dare I ask what happened.

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#311060 - 05/31/10 08:51 AM Re: About hardware experiments..
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
nothing:

domenico says if you change PC hardware better ask lionstracs italy first.

This thread can better be deleted, or the first message posted by Domenico may be edited only about PC hardware.



[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 05-31-2010).]

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#311061 - 05/31/10 09:21 AM Re: About hardware experiments..
Fran Carango Offline
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Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 8180
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Looks a lot like a DNJ post ..now..
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#311062 - 05/31/10 10:16 AM Re: About hardware experiments..
Irishacts Offline
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Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Quote:
domenico says if you change PC hardware better ask lionstracs italy first.


I see. Yeah, that's to be expected I guess. It's the same with all PC's. No point in trying to add something the manual for the mother board warns against and so on....

It's just standard practice.

Cheers
James

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#311063 - 05/31/10 10:27 AM Re: About hardware experiments..
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 5137
now you guys got me curious what was deleted?

Upgrading hardware is not as easy as people think, many combinations of Mainboard/Memmory/videocard just don't work out.

Also with the very special Lionstracs sound hardware, i would never use hardware that has not been toroughly tested by Dom/Lionstracs. There are just to many uncertainties.

So if i assumed correctly, then Dom is right to advise everyone to first contact Lionstracs/Dom when you want to do a hardware upgrade...

And when making upgrades yourself :If you'd love to use the new Asrock Extreme3 mainboard, then you also need to use the same memmory and graphics board (and offcourse the same AMD hexacore CPU) but also the same versions of the soundhardware used in the latest Groove system.

i.e. only build a system that has been fully tested by lionstracs, if not, you might get some unexpected problems that Dom can't help you with as your hardware configuration might not be supported by the current driver models.
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#311064 - 05/31/10 10:38 AM Re: About hardware experiments..
Tony Hughes Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3930
Quote:
Originally posted by Bachus:
now you guys got me curious what was deleted?

Upgrading hardware is not as easy as people think, many combinations of Mainboard/Memmory/videocard just don't work out.

Also with the very special Lionstracs sound hardware, i would never use hardware that has not been toroughly tested by Dom/Lionstracs. There are just to many uncertainties.

So if i assumed correctly, then Dom is right to advise everyone to first contact Lionstracs/Dom when you want to do a hardware upgrade...

And when making upgrades yourself :If you'd love to use the new Asrock Extreme3 mainboard, then you also need to use the same memmory and graphics board (and offcourse the same AMD hexacore CPU) but also the same versions of the soundhardware used in the latest Groove system.

i.e. only build a system that has been fully tested by lionstracs, if not, you might get some unexpected problems that Dom can't help you with as your hardware configuration might not be supported by the current driver models.



Hi All


I do hope that hardware is fully backward and forward compatible, the Asrock motherboard Lionstracs are using right now will be obsolete in less than a year, you will need to be able to just plug and play a new one if things go wrong.

Tony
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#311065 - 05/31/10 10:53 AM Re: About hardware experiments..
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
The post was about:

if you like to use more DDR or DDR2 or DDR3 ram, all rams should come from the same series. they most be all identical the same.

not other things.

You will have no problems if you inform lionstracs italy about changes you going to made with PC hardware.

only this so do not invent stories

if Nigel delete this topic. Domenico can start new one or edit his first post.


[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 05-31-2010).]

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#311066 - 05/31/10 12:49 PM Re: About hardware experiments..
miden Offline
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Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3351
Loc: The World
They do not necessarily need to be the same.

As long as the ram is the same speed, and same voltage the manufacturer has not a lot to do with it.

Apart from quality

Even if it is a slightly slower speed the BIOS should automatically detect this and throttle back the higher speed stick to the lower speed. If it jams the BIOS then the BIOS needs to be flashed to upgrade.

On my DAW PC for example, I have 8gig of ram. 2 sticks from Kinsgton and two "generic" brand sticks.

They are the same speed, voltage and capacity, but different manufacturer. No problems at all. And I have run tests (believe me ) that show all four sticks are running at full capacity.

And I can also confirm the Zalman CNPS7000C-AlCu CPU coolers also fit very nicely.

I can also confirm that if run a quad core inside the MS series, be prepared for either a very noisy fan, or a CPU running at nearly max heat levels most of the time. As the interior of the MS has very restricted airflow, being so small.

And because the MAX size of a system fan (the one near the power supply) is an 80mm one, you are limited in how much air you can pull from the inside without a cacophany of fan noise.

I have also made a hardware mod to fix this also. Previous mainboard temp 58 degrees, now it runs pretty constant at 39 degrees.

Now I know there are some that say a CPU can run "safely" at high temps, as long as it is within the spec, but personally I think having a safety margin of the CPU running at a constant temp of within 35% of the max, gives a better performance and longer life.

I am NOT disputing Domenico at all, just giving you my experience with it.

Dennis

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#311067 - 05/31/10 01:02 PM Re: About hardware experiments..
miden Offline
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Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3351
Loc: The World
And re the original thread topic.....

There is nothing wrong with making hardware changes in anything.

Provided :

1. You know what you are doing. And have a VALID reason for upgrading hardware.

2. If you don't know, you research thoroughly first. Then ask again.
"Measure twice, cut once"

3. Are prepared for a total system failure and have the expertise (and cash ) to rebuild it.

Now NONE of this applies to the proprietary mainboards/hardware that are also in the MS. As these can ONLY be upgraded byt Lionstracs. Although if one did trash the system they are at least obtainable as spare parts

Dennis

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#311068 - 05/31/10 01:03 PM Re: About hardware experiments..
Tony Hughes Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3930
Quote:
Originally posted by miden:


I can also confirm that if run a quad core inside the MS series, be prepared for either a very noisy fan, or a CPU running at nearly max heat levels most of the time. As the interior of the MS has very restricted airflow, being so small.

And because the MAX size of a system fan (the one near the power supply) is an 80mm one, you are limited in how much air you can pull from the inside without a cacophany of fan noise.


Dennis


Dennis,

I did notice this some time back the MB is mounted flat unlike most PC vertically. Mounted vertically a lot of natural convection takes place in a PC off the track side of the pcb and this helps, mounting the MB in the MS flat is the only way but the air fouling around the MB looks rather bad on the MS also, I think like you say, you start putting in processors that produce more heat you will pay the price, the bad fouling on the MS will mean you will require fans beyond what would be fitted in a PC side case. Not certain if the power supply on the MS has a fan, if note then the main extract fan will need to deal with this heat also. I would like some good quality photos of the inside of MS.

Tony
_________________________
Tyros 4/Pair SR 350/ PC with a i8 intel chip, XENYX 802, Ford Focus 2 litre/Tascam DR07/Brother printer/Designjet 500/ our Doris/5 Grandchildren/ white boxers short Kymart shipped over and Typhoo Tea Earl Grey

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#311069 - 05/31/10 01:19 PM Re: About hardware experiments..
Tony Hughes Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3930
Quote:
Originally posted by Irishacts:
Dare I ask what happened.


James,

This makes me a little nervous, did anyone get a look at the thread before it was deleted, this happened with Drumremix and Audya some time back, he got a kicking for it.
_________________________
Tyros 4/Pair SR 350/ PC with a i8 intel chip, XENYX 802, Ford Focus 2 litre/Tascam DR07/Brother printer/Designjet 500/ our Doris/5 Grandchildren/ white boxers short Kymart shipped over and Typhoo Tea Earl Grey

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#311070 - 05/31/10 01:21 PM Re: About hardware experiments..
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
see my other post(again)

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 05-31-2010).]

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#311071 - 05/31/10 01:25 PM Re: About hardware experiments..
Fran Carango Offline
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Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 8180
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
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#311072 - 05/31/10 01:27 PM Re: About hardware experiments..
Bachus Offline
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Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 5137
There are some pretty need fan/cooling solutions for sale from the server world. they fit intoo 2 inch high rackmount servers. But most of them are pretty loud..

I also know of a heatpipe solution with a low noise 120mm fan that would fit intoo the Groove.

But as long as you don't overclock your CPU heat should not be to much of a problem as long as the airflow through the case is high enough.
_________________________
Korg PA4x(76), korg Kronos 88, Ipad, Macbook, Mainstage3, Komplete Ultimate 11, Omnisphere2, Keyscape, Trilian, Serum, pianoteq5, Ivory2, Blue2, Zebra2, Diva, Hive, V/collection, Synthmaster2.8, Halion 6, Superior drummer.

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#311073 - 05/31/10 01:39 PM Re: About hardware experiments..
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 8180
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
http://www.lionstracs.com/store/lionstracsmanuals-p-144.html


You can download the MS hardware manual here..it shows great pics
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#311074 - 05/31/10 01:41 PM Re: About hardware experiments..
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3351
Loc: The World
Quote:
Originally posted by Bachus:

I also know of a heatpipe solution with a low noise 120mm fan that would fit intoo the Groove.

But as long as you don't overclock your CPU heat should not be to much of a problem as long as the airflow through the case is high enough.


Would that be the Scythe Shuriken Rev b??(thats the one Dom is using in the Groove Extreme).

As for the second part I have quoted you on above, sorry, but I have to disagree.

The COOLER you run a CPU the better and faster it works. Over-clocking is a side issue.

If a manufacturer spec says the max temp for a CPU is 72 degrees, does NOT (in my view) mean its totally okay to run it at 69.5 degrees constantly.

As I said in my experience, a good safety margin is getting a constant ave temp within a 35% of the max. So on a CPU max advised of 72, something around 52-55 is good.

The airflow inside the MS is not ideal. as I said I have made some hardware changes (minor case-work) and these have made a BIG difference.

I am also using a Noctua system fan (the one behind the power supply board, for those who are not aware ) which is much quieter (about 1/3 of the standard issue) whihc then allows just a little more db on the CPU fan.

Although it has not much at all as the Zalman comes with a variable speed control device.

Mine is presently running at approx 1500RPM, and I am achieving an ave CPU temp of 54 degrees. If I am doing more intensive studio work where the CPU is working harder, I just ramp up the fan speed. It has a max of nearly 2500RPM.

But in gig work it NEVER needs more than 1500, in fact I could probably lower it even further

Dennis

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#311075 - 05/31/10 03:09 PM Re: About hardware experiments..
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
again:

from my experience with computer parts. RAM modules must be better identical(recomended but not necessary ) if you like to use Dual-channel architecture,but is not always necessary, moreover you can turn this Dual-channel architecture off on bios, then you have no problems if you use different models totally: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-channel_architecture

various DDR DDR2 DDR3 cause not any OS crash or big problems..........

a simple reason for this if it was so:


then you most have for each PC around the world one special O.S only for each PC...............

i mean

1 pc=1 O.S


but it is not like that



[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 05-31-2010).]

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#311076 - 05/31/10 03:22 PM Re: About hardware experiments..
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3351
Loc: The World
Quote:
Originally posted by AFG Music:
again:

from my experience with computer parts. RAM modules must be better identical(recomended but not necessary ) if you like to use Dual-channel architecture,but is not always necessary, moreover you can turn this Dual-channel architecture off on bios, then you have no problems if you use different models totally: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-channel_architecture


[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 05-31-2010).]


AFG, I am not disputing you, nor am I dis-agreeing with you

I am just saying from my experience with PC hardware (and that goes back to AT PC's )

Yes it is ALWAYS preferable to have the same stick from the same manufacturer, but it has NO effect on the real-world RAM performance.

Unless of course you are using Ram Sticks from Dodgy Brothers Computer Hardware.

In which case, THAT ram is probably going to fail anyway.

If the RAM is all from reputable manufacturers and has the same speed and voltage, there are no issues.

Dennis

Dennis

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#311077 - 05/31/10 03:25 PM Re: About hardware experiments..
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
we say the same thing

at some points. because even voltage is not a major problem(only with same identical ram maby and maybe you get better perfomance)

read the last piece of my last post, becoue you are very fast with write one post [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img]



[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 05-31-2010).]

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#311078 - 05/31/10 04:24 PM Re: About hardware experiments..
miden Offline
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Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3351
Loc: The World
Yes I read all of your post, BEFORE I posted my response.

Time to move on

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#311079 - 05/31/10 09:13 PM Re: About hardware experiments..
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 5137
I have build a few hundred PC's over the last 25 years..

Sometimes a certain brand/type of memmory just gives troubles with a certain brand/type of motherboard. Either not running at all or generating random crashes.

When building a PC i only use memmory that i know will work because it is listed in the manual. Or because i know of a configuration with that combo of mainboard/memmory that is being produced and tested by a reliable company.

Offcourse its also important that you use only 1 type/brand of memmory.
_________________________
Korg PA4x(76), korg Kronos 88, Ipad, Macbook, Mainstage3, Komplete Ultimate 11, Omnisphere2, Keyscape, Trilian, Serum, pianoteq5, Ivory2, Blue2, Zebra2, Diva, Hive, V/collection, Synthmaster2.8, Halion 6, Superior drummer.

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#311080 - 05/31/10 10:11 PM Re: About hardware experiments..
Tony Hughes Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3930
Quote:
Originally posted by Fran Carango:


I will says this just one more time and then I will drop it, the MS has bits crammed in like the engine under a mini bonnet (hood), in an ordinary PC there is usually plenty of room in front on the CPU fan for the cooling air to straighten out and then get out via gravity or via a second side case fan, even water cooling has been introduced for some big CPU. The CPU cooling fan on the MS blows straight into the top case which looks about no more than 50mm away this is not good, why because some of the hot air from the fan will hit the top of the case bounce around and then go back into the air intake fin on the CPU thus increasing the temperature. The results of building electronic bits sat close to each other has itís payload in warming each other up and most PC components are usually rated at no more the 40/50⁰C. If I was designing the MS the MB would be in a separate mini tower with a flying lead make the KB much lighter to handle and last forever. The MS does look a nightmare to work on, letís hope that nothing goes wrong inside. There are thermistors on all MB PCB now and this should have been flagged up if it was a problem so perhaps it isnít.

Tony
_________________________
Tyros 4/Pair SR 350/ PC with a i8 intel chip, XENYX 802, Ford Focus 2 litre/Tascam DR07/Brother printer/Designjet 500/ our Doris/5 Grandchildren/ white boxers short Kymart shipped over and Typhoo Tea Earl Grey

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#311081 - 06/01/10 12:26 AM Re: About hardware experiments..
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 4557
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Hi Tony
Desktop and Media centre PCs are also mounted horizontal and also have restricted space, but work without problems, so providing you donít use the really high power CPU, (Keep to 95w or below) cooling is no problem. (You will find if you use an auto variable fan, (Or if AMD activate cool & quiet) it very seldom runs at anywhere near full speed)

Remember Wersi have a similar construction since 2000 (Uprated in 2003 with the introduction of the P4) and apart from a faulty batch of MSI boards, there have been minimal problems with factory built units. (The P4 was probably the hottest running CPU ever made)
Hope this helps to put your mind at rest

Bill


[This message has been edited by abacus (edited 06-01-2010).]
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (IÔŅĹm definitely staying put).

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#311082 - 06/01/10 01:33 AM Re: About hardware experiments..
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Quote:
Originally posted by Tony Hughes:
I will says this just one more time and then I will drop it, the MS has bits crammed in like the engine under a mini bonnet (hood), in an ordinary PC there is usually plenty of room in front on the CPU fan for the cooling air to straighten out and then get out via gravity or via a second side case fan, even water cooling has been introduced for some big CPU. The CPU cooling fan on the MS blows straight into the top case which looks about no more than 50mm away this is not good, why because some of the hot air from the fan will hit the top of the case bounce around and then go back into the air intake fin on the CPU thus increasing the temperature. The results of building electronic bits sat close to each other has itís payload in warming each other up and most PC components are usually rated at no more the 40/50⁰C. If I was designing the MS the MB would be in a separate mini tower with a flying lead make the KB much lighter to handle and last forever. The MS does look a nightmare to work on, letís hope that nothing goes wrong inside. There are thermistors on all MB PCB now and this should have been flagged up if it was a problem so perhaps it isnít.

Tony



then you do not know about CPU fan air follow inside MS. MS top case has many holes for buttons, there will be air follow for inside http://www.lionstracs.com/demo/MSproinside.jpg

and do not forget keybed side, becouse from keyebd side you have very big air follow too

and Groove version has more Space already: http://www.lionstracs.com/store/images/2010/raid/Raidgroove.JPG



[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 06-01-2010).]

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#311083 - 06/01/10 06:50 AM Re: About hardware experiments..
Tony Hughes Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3930
Quote:
Originally posted by abacus:
Hi Tony
Desktop and Media centre PCs are also mounted horizontal and also have restricted space, but work without problems, so providing you donít use the really high power CPU, (Keep to 95w or below) cooling is no problem. (You will find if you use an auto variable fan, (Or if AMD activate cool & quiet) it very seldom runs at anywhere near full speed)

Remember Wersi have a similar construction since 2000 (Uprated in 2003 with the introduction of the P4) and apart from a faulty batch of MSI boards, there have been minimal problems with factory built units. (The P4 was probably the hottest running CPU ever made)
Hope this helps to put your mind at rest

Bill


[This message has been edited by abacus (edited 06-01-2010).]


Bill,

Wersi are no longer in business, nothing to do with cooling fans was it.????
_________________________
Tyros 4/Pair SR 350/ PC with a i8 intel chip, XENYX 802, Ford Focus 2 litre/Tascam DR07/Brother printer/Designjet 500/ our Doris/5 Grandchildren/ white boxers short Kymart shipped over and Typhoo Tea Earl Grey

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#311084 - 06/01/10 10:43 AM Re: About hardware experiments..
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 4557
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Quote:
Originally posted by Tony Hughes:
Bill,

Wersi are no longer in business, nothing to do with cooling fans was it.????


Hi Tony
Wersi are still in business, they were bought by Music Store http://www.musicstore.de/en_EN/EUR/ who is currently focusing on re-launching the Pegasus Wing this month. (Itís now being made in the Far East, however all development will continue in Germany)
All options for OAS 7 instruments are available from Music Store, also support for Wersi instruments has been negotiated between Music Store and Wersi Studio http://www.wersi-hochrhein.com/cms/ (Further support centres are currently under negotiation)
Keep an eye on the Wersi website for updates http://www.wersi.net/
Hope this clears things up.

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (IÔŅĹm definitely staying put).

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