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#310691 - 05/01/10 03:38 AM Question for MS users about audio styles
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
1. Can you import an audio drum loop to a style? Can that drum loop follow tempo changes?
2. Can you import an audio bass line to a style? Can that loop follower tempo changes and chord changes?

3. Can you import a polyphonic sound loop (guitar, piano ..) to a style? Can that loop follow tempo and chord changes? How complex can the chord changes be?
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#310692 - 05/01/10 04:27 AM Re: Question for MS users about audio styles
Diki Offline
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
The drum loop is the easy bit... But if you only have the ONE loop, there isn't anything that will say change a major bassline into a minor or diminished one. And the same (even more so, really) applies to chords. There's nothing realtime will turn a major into a minor or 7th, etc..

The only way this works is if you have a different loop for each chord type, and even that has it's limitations... unlike a MIDI line, an audio loop can't have an upper or lower limit set. It is going to transpose as a whole. So, to be fair, you'll need maybe two or three loops for different pitch wraparound ranges, and possible two or three loop sets at different tempi, to cut down on speed change issues as well.

Apart from drum loops, adding in other Parts in audio format is quite a can of worms. Now I expect an MS owner to chime in and tell you how easy it all ought to be, but before you take their word, ask them to play you something they have done in style mode using audio loops... Then listen to it as it goes through the changes, listen to the basslines as they transpose up and down regardless of pitch, listen to the chords move around in parallel motion, and compare it to how smoothly and musically this is done by MIDI arrangers...

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#310693 - 05/01/10 05:26 AM Re: Question for MS users about audio styles
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
1. Can you import an audio drum loop to a style? Can that drum loop follow tempo changes?
2. Can you import an audio bass line to a style? Can that loop follower tempo changes and chord changes?

3. Can you import a polyphonic sound loop (guitar, piano ..) to a style? Can that loop follow tempo and chord changes? How complex can the chord changes be?


1-yes
2-yes- yes/no (for chord changes there are many
options to do this,if you want)
3-yes- yes/no(for chord changes there are many
options to do this,if you want)

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#310694 - 05/01/10 05:43 AM Re: Question for MS users about audio styles
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
Quote:
Originally posted by AFG Music:
1-yes
2-yes- yes/no (for chord changes there are many
options to do this,if you want)
3-yes- yes/no(for chord changes there are many
options to do this,if you want)



What are those options?
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#310695 - 05/01/10 05:45 AM Re: Question for MS users about audio styles
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 34119
Loc: New Jersey
To me all this FRANKENSTEINING just doesn't cut it...I have played almost everything on the market and every time the original unit always sounds better then any imported, or open source arranger styles.......if someone would love to prove me wrong please post a few style demos done outside of the originals ones please.

Thank you
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#310696 - 05/01/10 06:27 AM Re: Question for MS users about audio styles
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
To me all this FRANKENSTEINING just doesn't cut it...I have played almost everything on the market and every time the original unit always sounds better then any imported, or open source arranger styles.......if someone would love to prove me wrong please post a few style demos done outside of the originals ones please.

Thank you


first you can insert more then one track audio to styles. for 8intro-8fill in-8variation-8end.

for chords:

-slice chords and make it like a drumkit with awave studio and save as giga sound, then on qranger editor record the notes like this (for the track qranger track operation you can use 3 options drum-bass-melody for each track if you use drum for track operation by chord changes, the notes are not transported and it wil play the sounds as they recorded for 32 chord types that you can use):



-make your audio styles, song specific. by using the chords used only on that song and the key you sing it. for example if you sing the song from E key and the song has 4 chords.
open on qranger editor one audio track with drum track operation for that track. create chords type that you want on that track.now you can insert for each chord type one audio chord.

- use celemony melodyne with DNA:
http://www.celemony.com/cms/


note: the image is not from qranger editor


[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 05-01-2010).]

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#310697 - 05/01/10 07:00 AM Re: Question for MS users about audio styles
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 34119
Loc: New Jersey
Quote:
Originally posted by AFG Music:
first you can insert more then one track audio to styles. for 8intro-8fill in-8variation-8end.

for chords:

-slice chords and make it like a drumkit with awave studio and save as giga sound, then on qranger editor record the notes like this (for the track qranger track operation you can use 3 options drum-bass-melody for each track if you use drum for track operation by chord changes, the notes are not transported and it wil play the sounds as they recorded for 32 chord types that you can use):



-make your audio styles, song specific. by using the chords used only on that song and the key you sing it. for example if you sing the song from E key and the song has 4 chords.
open on qranger editor one audio track with drum track operation for that track. create chords type that you want on that track.now you can insert for each chord type one audio chord.

- use celemony melodyne with DNA:
http://www.celemony.com/cms/


note: the image is not from qranger editor


[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 05-01-2010).]


Please tell me how do you expect the average user to understand what the heck all this open keyboard programing stuff is all about if you dont have any quality DVD instructional lessons to teach people how to understand and use these products...do you just assume everyone does.....this is a big part about WHY these open units are a very small part of the actual KB purchasing community...if at all....KNOWLEDGE goes a long way and should be treated very seriously by a manufacturer for all their products instead of just concerning themselves with making money then leaving the end user out to dry a year or so later when the discontinue that model and offer another. If they would just teach people what they are offering in layman's terms the sales will come soon enough.
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#310698 - 05/01/10 07:18 AM Re: Question for MS users about audio styles
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Dnj,

there are more people who have ever used Propellerheads Reason, that for years is working with audio/drum slices as kits for recording songs.
http://www.propellerheads.se/products/reason/

If you think today's young arranger players are unfamiliar with these things , you're wrong.

Most young people are so handy that without read the manual of something begin to use it!!!!!

sometimes some people here talk like they never seen a music software and know nothing of new today techniques and technology.


and the question was asked by someone who already knows these techniques with other similar software.

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 05-01-2010).]

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#310699 - 05/01/10 07:27 AM Re: Question for MS users about audio styles
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 34119
Loc: New Jersey
That might be true for many younger players.....but what about older baby boomers...there are many who would like to learn about it...don't assume so many people know what your talking about.
there are many who dont care to program, instead just want to play easily out of the box also. I sent a few emails to MS and never got a response.....so with that attitude I have decided to drop my ambitions to pursue a MS....but instead stick with companies that value their customers and offer better support when needed.

Thank you
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Roland EA7, TC Helicon Perform VK, LD Maui 28's, LD Maui 5, Mixcraft 8 Pro

“Be so good they can't ignore you”

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#310700 - 05/01/10 07:36 AM Re: Question for MS users about audio styles
vagro Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/07
Posts: 321
Loc: Argentina
Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
Please tell me how do you expect the average user to understand what the heck all this open keyboard programing stuff is all about if you dont have any quality DVD instructional lessons to teach people how to understand and use these products...do you just assume everyone does.....this is a big part about WHY these open units are a very small part of the actual KB purchasing community...if at all....KNOWLEDGE goes a long way and should be treated very seriously by a manufacturer for all their products instead of just concerning themselves with making money then leaving the end user out to dry a year or so later when the discontinue that model and offer another. If they would just teach people what they are offering in layman's terms the sales will come soon enough.



All this reminds me the old times when you as a doctor could treat all the deseases. Nowadays medicine has become so complex and specific that I, as a general physician, have to refer patients to the specialist when some cases requiere the experts opinion.
Definetively computers in electronic music has reached such a complexity that exceeds the average musician's skill. This is not for the playing musician who requires times for learning new playing techniques.

IMHO, Victor
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Korg Pa3x 61 - Mediastation X76 - Yamaha Psr s900 - Korg Tr61 - Roland PK5A - NanoKontrol - Ensoniq SQ1 - Yamaha D85 organ

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#310701 - 05/01/10 07:37 AM Re: Question for MS users about audio styles
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
That might be true for many younger players.....but what about older baby boomers...there are many who would like to learn about it...don't assume so many people know what your talking about.
there are many who dont care to program, instead just want to play easily out of the box also. I sent a few emails to MS and never got a response.....so with that attitude I have decided to drop my ambitions to pursue a MS....but instead stick with companies that value their customers and offer better support when needed.

Thank you


The good side of MS is that it has far too easy things also.

contain some of these things is shown by JAMES. some of this options you have read posted by users.few times stated clearly when you like to buy MS/Groove do not sell your existing arranger. so you can prepare everything for good using of MS/Groove.

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#310702 - 05/01/10 08:10 AM Re: Question for MS users about audio styles
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Yep... It dead easy to operate, but unlimited in ability so therefor it can be as deep as you need to go.

The core functions though are something you will fly around in no time at all. I think that for anyone remotely interested in this keyboard but a afraid of the learning curve, they should strongly consider it as a second keyboard. Something to complement their existing arranger. Once you own it in that capacity and your playing a long with using Giga sounds with your existing arranger, it won't take along at all until your using it all the time.

Its bloody good

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 05-01-2010).]

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#310703 - 05/01/10 08:11 AM Re: Question for MS users about audio styles
Bachus Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 5144
@DNJ

People with technical knowledge will produce and they (most of them) will share their stuff.

And the old pre babyboomers can just download and use that stuff.

Its like MP3's you can just download/purchase them without any knowledge how they where made.
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#310704 - 05/01/10 08:21 AM Re: Question for MS users about audio styles
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 34119
Loc: New Jersey
I understand and have actually played the MS at Fran's studio..and I actually enjoyed it being a very well made unit with unlimited features if you understand them.
If not DVD at least they should put up You Tube instructional demos featuring EACH feature on a unit in a workshop fashion for all to see & learn just as James has done such a great job with this as usual.. How do you suppose people should learn? Not everyone is a Diki

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 05-01-2010).]
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#310705 - 05/01/10 08:33 AM Re: Question for MS users about audio styles
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Quote:
How do you suppose people should learn?


Just pop on over to the Lionstracs section. Regardless of your level, people are there and willing to help out.

Regards
James

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#310706 - 05/01/10 08:50 AM Re: Question for MS users about audio styles
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 34119
Loc: New Jersey
Quote:
Originally posted by Irishacts:
Just pop on over to the Lionstracs section. Regardless of your level, people are there and willing to help out.

Regards
James


Roger That James!!
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Roland EA7, TC Helicon Perform VK, LD Maui 28's, LD Maui 5, Mixcraft 8 Pro

“Be so good they can't ignore you”

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#310707 - 05/01/10 03:06 PM Re: Question for MS users about audio styles
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 4557
Loc: English Riviera, UK
So long as Melodyne can manipulate the Audio Loop to produce all the chords, then just like the Audya, all the various chord loops can be stored in the MS memory or HDD, and so there is no need for real-time transposition. (Remember the MS has way more storage capacity then the Audya)

Bill
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#310708 - 05/01/10 04:13 PM Re: Question for MS users about audio styles
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
Quote:
Originally posted by abacus:
So long as Melodyne can manipulate the Audio Loop to produce all the chords, then just like the Audya, all the various chord loops can be stored in the MS memory or HDD, and so there is no need for real-time transposition. (Remember the MS has way more storage capacity then the Audya)

Bill


This is also a good idea as you say. but I personally find the way of slices the chords and make a kit with awave or gigaedit software for win/linux and save it as giga sound.
why is this the best way:
becouse from your sliced chords you can make good varations,

Propellerheads Reason works for years with this option.

a few years ago i used this option for Roland VA-76 and AKAI S6000.

i sliced the chord for example in C-D-E-F-G and save it in AKAI format, then i on my style editor on Roland VA-76 i recorded triger notes C-D-E-F-G one after another.


This takes time but it's worth to doing.

but another option to create song-specific styles, for example, if the song has 4 chords then use 4 different chord loop this 4 chord is also a good way.

qranger is currently unique. because the it is only style player where audio recording is possible on more then one track.

there is more software that works like melodyne DNA:

vielklang

http://vielklang.zplane.de/

or this one only for MAC:
http://www.cochleor.com/visualvox-preview.html

and for the one who think i do not know melodyne DNA is not reatime operation becouse melodyne most analyze the audio, you got your answer abacus.


[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 05-01-2010).]

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#310709 - 05/03/10 05:56 PM Re: Question for MS users about audio styles
leeboy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 2096
Loc: Columbia City, IN USA
James...if you say it's Bloody good...it's Bloody good...
(Yea the Korg Guy...and I really enjoy all the sounds I bought from you (and Rob))

Lee S.
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#310710 - 05/06/10 03:34 PM Re: Question for MS users about audio styles
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
Thanks AFG music for your responses.
It is good to know that audio tracks in a style can be used on the MS.
Not every style of music uses complex chord extensions.

Usually, a good arranger player would know what type of songs he would use for a particular style.
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#310711 - 05/10/10 04:16 AM Re: Question for MS users about audio styles
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
Well getting back to my question (note I did not ask for audio examples [they are worthless because what you can do is not a reflection on what I can do]).
But can the MS use an acid loop in a style?
Again I am not asking for an Audio example just the written word.
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#310712 - 05/10/10 05:47 AM Re: Question for MS users about audio styles
Magica Alfa Offline
Member

Registered: 05/26/06
Posts: 259
Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
Well getting back to my question (note I did not ask for audio examples [they are worthless because what you can do is not a reflection on what I can do]).
But can the MS use an acid loop in a style?
Again I am not asking for an Audio example just the written word.



YES. That ia possible.

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#310713 - 05/10/10 03:10 PM Re: Question for MS users about audio styles
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
It all depends on what some one wants to do with the Audio.
With an open arranger (or with any keyboard really), you can make a task as simple or as complex as you want it.
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