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#309531 - 11/25/06 05:34 PM Question on Latency ie using a mix of softsynth & hardware synth tracks at same time
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 4243
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi,
have a bit of a dumb question. I recently bought a Ketron sd2 sound module for my OMB software.
Reason for getting it was for the " Live Drums" ( & midi drum loops ) that I also have in my sd1 keyboard.

Theory is to replace existing drum patterns in some of my omb styles with these sd2 drum midi loops. May save me lots of drum track editing.

Using the module by itself works well, but what I'm hoping is that I can actually have a mix of soundfonts for some instruments & sd2 for drums & maybe piano.

Should soft synth latency when mixed with sd2 tracks throw out the timing.
Normally the soundfont player I use in my laptop has about a 10ms latency ( and I think I can notice a delay when mixed with sd2 traks) but if I use an external card & go back to using forte etc, I think I can get it down to under 3ms. I don't want to go to all the hassle of installing all the software etc if even a 3ms latency is going to be audible.

I supoose what I'm asking , can the 2 be mixed succesfully.

best wishes
Rikki
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki

Korg PA4x, Korg PA3X, PSR S950, Band in a Box 2016
V Arranger/Ketron SD2

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#309532 - 11/25/06 06:39 PM Re: Question on Latency ie using a mix of softsynth & hardware synth tracks at same time
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1007
Rikki, I have no way of testing your particular system but my guess is you should be ok. Most hardware modules and keyboards operate at a latency of something greater than 10ms. So if all your components operate at 10ms or less chances are that you will not notice any differences between them.....just a guess.

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 11-25-2006).]

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#309533 - 11/25/06 11:33 PM Re: Question on Latency ie using a mix of softsynth & hardware synth tracks at same time
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 4243
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Frank,
thank you.
The 10ms or 3ms is the latency setting I had in Forte depending on whether I used an external card & asio driver, or just the internal card & windows drivers. Wouldn't have a clue what the real latency is unless those settings are actually acurate. ?

I'd removed Forte & the asio drivers etc from my new dual core laptop after I managed to get my old laptop working again. Unfortunately it crashed & died again.

Anyway, I'll load Forte etc back in , I'm determined to try & use a mix of sd2 drum loops & fonts if I can.

Just one more question Frank, if I'm using forte & live synth pro with fonts & just say I'm genuinely getting a 3ms latency,
if I used a soundfont sax as a lead instrument would I get increased latency using a sax from just say garritons ( not referring to any loading time etc that may be involved ) just the perception of hitting the key & hearing the note?
(Sorry to be difficult haa haa)

best wishes
Rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank L. Rosenthal:
[B]
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki

Korg PA4x, Korg PA3X, PSR S950, Band in a Box 2016
V Arranger/Ketron SD2

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#309534 - 11/26/06 01:46 PM Re: Question on Latency ie using a mix of softsynth & hardware synth tracks at same time
richard_shiflet Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/04
Posts: 172
Loc: Greenwood, SC -USA
Quote:
Originally posted by rikkisbears:
Hi Frank,
thank you.
The 10ms or 3ms is the latency setting I had in Forte depending on whether I used an external card & asio driver, or just the internal card & windows drivers. Wouldn't have a clue what the real latency is unless those settings are actually acurate. ?

I'd removed Forte & the asio drivers etc from my new dual core laptop after I managed to get my old laptop working again. Unfortunately it crashed & died again.

Anyway, I'll load Forte etc back in , I'm determined to try & use a mix of sd2 drum loops & fonts if I can.

Just one more question Frank, if I'm using forte & live synth pro with fonts & just say I'm genuinely getting a 3ms latency,
if I used a soundfont sax as a lead instrument would I get increased latency using a sax from just say garritons ( not referring to any loading time etc that may be involved ) just the perception of hitting the key & hearing the note?
(Sorry to be difficult haa haa)

best wishes
Rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank L. Rosenthal:
[B]



Rikki,
Here is a way that you may be able to get an accurate reading of you true latency. This website has a free downloadable tool to measure latency. It measures the true round-trip latency of your computer audio setup, from input to output via an ASIO driver
http://centrance.com/products/ltu/

They also have low latency drivers for a price. The Ideal Driver sells $39.95 and claims a 6ms latency which is supposed to be so low that it is not detectable by most people.

It also is supposed to add greater compatability like adding GSIF support to soundcards that previously did not have it.

Anyway I thought that the Latency Test Utility might be able to give you the info you need for an accurate comparison.

Richard

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#309535 - 11/26/06 06:20 PM Re: Question on Latency ie using a mix of softsynth & hardware synth tracks at same time
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1007
Rikki, you should be ok if all your devices come in at 10 ms or less. Say your soundfont sax came in at 3 ms and your Garritan strings come in at 10 ms you would likely not notice this difference. Most people will not notice a latency of 10 ms or less.

Rikki just sell all your hardware based stuff and everything will work out!!!

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#309536 - 11/26/06 10:38 PM Re: Question on Latency ie using a mix of softsynth & hardware synth tracks at same time
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 4243
Loc: NSW,Australia
Thank you Richard,
I'll try the test.

With a poor result I'll probably get more depressed than ever we don't have Mediastations in Aust. haa haa.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by richard_shiflet:
[B]
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki

Korg PA4x, Korg PA3X, PSR S950, Band in a Box 2016
V Arranger/Ketron SD2

Top
#309537 - 11/26/06 10:50 PM Re: Question on Latency ie using a mix of softsynth & hardware synth tracks at same time
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 4243
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Frank,
I just bought the little module mainly
for a bit of portable compatibility for my sd1, and here you trying to get me to sell it again haa haa.

Actually hoping it may be a quick solution for drum tracks , I'm so slow when it comes to editing them on some of the converted styles. I'm hoping replacing may be a quicker option.

Actually how are you going with Bandstand, have they put out a lighter version yet?
I'm hoping one day they may put out a lighter Garritons.

best wishes
Rikki
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank L. Rosenthal:


Rikki just sell all your hardware based stuff and everything will work out!!!
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki

Korg PA4x, Korg PA3X, PSR S950, Band in a Box 2016
V Arranger/Ketron SD2

Top
#309538 - 11/27/06 05:23 PM Re: Question on Latency ie using a mix of softsynth & hardware synth tracks at same time
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 4243
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Richard,
tried the test with my usb Audiophile soundcard driver.
Came in at roughly 502samples per 10.44ms ,
does that mean I have a 10.44ms latency??

Don't know whether I read it correctly but does the ideal driver only work with firewire soundcards?

So basically guys, could a firewire soundcard give me better latency than my usb one??

best wishes
Rikki

Quote:
Originally posted by richard_shiflet:

Rikki,
Here is a way that you may be able to get an accurate reading of you true latency. This website has a free downloadable tool to measure latency. It measures the true round-trip latency of your computer audio setup, from input to output via an ASIO driver
http://centrance.com/products/ltu/

They also have low latency drivers for a price. The Ideal Driver sells $39.95 and claims a 6ms latency which is supposed to be so low that it is not detectable by most people.

It also is supposed to add greater compatability like adding GSIF support to soundcards that previously did not have it.

Anyway I thought that the Latency Test Utility might be able to give you the info you need for an accurate comparison.

Richard
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki

Korg PA4x, Korg PA3X, PSR S950, Band in a Box 2016
V Arranger/Ketron SD2

Top
#309539 - 12/10/06 12:17 AM Re: Question on Latency ie using a mix of softsynth & hardware synth tracks at same time
richard_shiflet Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/04
Posts: 172
Loc: Greenwood, SC -USA
Quote:
Originally posted by rikkisbears:
Hi Richard,
tried the test with my usb Audiophile soundcard driver.
Came in at roughly 502samples per 10.44ms ,
does that mean I have a 10.44ms latency??

Don't know whether I read it correctly but does the ideal driver only work with firewire soundcards?

So basically guys, could a firewire soundcard give me better latency than my usb one??

best wishes
Rikki



Rikki,

My apologies for not answering sooner, somehow I missed this post. I am not very experienced in the area of sound cards and latency and can only offer what I have read. I own the Presonus Firebox which is a firewire interface. I purchased it because I had been told that firewire was faster than usb.

However upon further investigation I find that it is a rather complicated issue. While Firewire can be faster, Firewire is listed at 400Mb/sec Firewire2 at 800Mbs/sec and USB1.1 at 12 Mbs/sec USB2.0 at 480Mbs/sec; other issues may need to be considered.

USB, or universal serial bus, may have a cost advantage as it is a master-slave periphiral network that relies on the processing power of the host computer to handle the data transfer; while Firewire is a peer-to-peer network that contains "smart" chipsets that allow any device to be host, so it does not tax the processing power of the computer's cpu. Firewire devices can actually connect and exchange data without a computer. This capability results in a more expensive chipset.

USB may be more common and easier to find. Firewire may have some performance benefits especially if your cpu is already over-taxed with other duties. Either will probably allow good performance.

If you are getting a 3ms latency with your external card, that seems to be a good solution and probably undetectable. I think the asio driver will be necessary as the windows driver is more general purpose and not suited to pro audio.

You may have already moved past this question because I am replying late and this could all now be a moot point. Anyway I hope this info helps somehow.

[This message has been edited by richard_shiflet (edited 12-10-2006).]

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#309540 - 12/11/06 06:39 PM Re: Question on Latency ie using a mix of softsynth & hardware synth tracks at same time
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 4243
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Richard,
thank you.

I suppose the main thing is that I don't hear a noticeable lag. One of these days it may start to make a bit more sense. haahaa.

best wishes
rikki


[QUOTE]Originally posted by richard_shiflet:
[B] Rikki,
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki

Korg PA4x, Korg PA3X, PSR S950, Band in a Box 2016
V Arranger/Ketron SD2

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