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#303440 - 01/20/04 01:44 PM VA7 Single finger chord facility?
Peter Lowden Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 367
Loc: England
Does the Roland VA7 recognize single finger chording in the same manner the Technics and Yamaha keyboards do?

Many thanks in advance for any help

Peter

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#303441 - 02/05/04 11:20 AM Re: VA7 Single finger chord facility?
rolandfan Offline
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Registered: 07/29/02
Posts: 918
Loc: South Africa
what manner would that be ? Arent they all the same ?

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#303442 - 02/05/04 11:24 AM Re: VA7 Single finger chord facility?
Peter Lowden Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 367
Loc: England
Unfortunately not

Technics Yamaha Korg Wersi and Gem all use the same.

I've learnt since that Roland use a somewhat unauthodox method.

Kind regards

Peter

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#303443 - 02/05/04 01:20 PM Re: VA7 Single finger chord facility?
Uncle Dave Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 11088
Loc: Philadelphia Pa, USA
Actually, I believe that Roland and Korg are more mucially correct than Yamaha and Technics. For example:
In simple, one finger mode (Roland) a single note gives you a major chord of the same name.
eg: "G" = G maj chord
Apply your musical theory and know that to make a minor chord you need to flatten the third degree of the chord ("B" in this case)
so play:
"G" and "Bb" and get the G min chord.

Who ever decided that playing ANY black note to the left of a tonic, makes musical sense was drinking on the job, I think!
It is much more logical to use correct musical theory when forming chords ... even in the simple fashion.

C + Eb = C Min(Roland/Korg)
C + Eb = Eb7 (Technics/Yamaha)
Sorry, but that's just goofy.

All major makers seem to act the same if 3 notes are used at a time, but it's this one and two finger approach that differs from brand to brand. Just like the "interpretation" of what FULL size piano keys are. Roland , Technics & Korg have it right .... Yamaha is making a fashion statement like the Cooper Mini car. Smaller is better, they think.

I disagree.
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#303444 - 02/05/04 11:07 PM Re: VA7 Single finger chord facility?
Peter Lowden Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 367
Loc: England
Thanks Uncle Dave for your comments,


Since posting my original enquiry on the forum, i've actually written and emailed and had replies from all the Keyboard Manufacturers we mention in this discussion, some have kindly provided charts taken from the owners manual, as did the Tech dept at Roland UK. The chart sent to me by Korg Tech Dept, and taken from the VA7 Owners manual quite clearly indicates that a lot of the single fingered chord positions are the same as Technics, Yamaha, Wersi, Gem,
but many are not it's this mixture of not following a certain pattern throughout the whole range that leads to what I refer to an "unorthodox method

The conclusion is this (not from me but from Roland UK): Roland UK Tech dept have been trying for some time to get their single fingered chord recognition sequence the same as all the other leading brands of keyboard
manufacturers, they also understand that they loose custom because of the difference their instruments have with regard single fingered chord recognition and are trying to get this matter adressed with Roland central office.

Most of the dealers I have spoke to over the last few weeks are also aware of the Rolands difference in approach to Single F C.

If anyone buys a Roland keyboard and intends to use just the single fingered chord feature for playing, and have been used to Yamaha, Korg, Technics, Wersi, or Gem instruments, then believe me you are in for a shock.

Not my words but ROLAND UK TECH DEPT

Sorry Dave but I have to disagree with most of what you say, could cause a lot of problems for people buying a Roland instrument for the first time and who use solely the SFC feature.

All the best

Peter

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#303445 - 02/08/04 03:01 AM Re: VA7 Single finger chord facility?
Burkels Offline
Member

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 319
Loc: Alkmaar, The Netherlands, Euro...
Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Lowden:
If anyone buys a Roland keyboard and intends to use just the single fingered chord feature for playing, and have been used to Yamaha, Korg, Technics, Wersi, or Gem instruments, then believe me you are in for a shock.
Not my words but ROLAND UK TECH DEPT

Utter nonsens, imho. That techguy obviously wasn't aware of the way new Roland boards handle the SFC function. Using the ARR SET parameter in the board setup you can define what method you wish to use.
MD1 (the original Roland-method) or
MD2 (which will follow the method used by all those other manufacturers) or
OFF so you'll have to play the entire chord on the arranger. But I guess that's something for true musicians... :-/

Quote:
Sorry Dave but I have to disagree with most of what you say, could cause a lot of problems for people buying a Roland instrument for the first time and who use solely the SFC feature.

Just because you buy a arranger board that can practically play everything -for- you, does not mean it will hurt you to learn the basics about chords. Dave is absolutely right here. The original Roland/Korg approach is right, the others are making it -too- simple. You plan to make MUSIC, right? Not just operate a automated music machine?
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#303446 - 02/08/04 03:42 AM Re: VA7 Single finger chord facility?
Peter Lowden Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 367
Loc: England
I note your comments Burkels.

MD1 (the original Roland-method) or
MD2 (which will follow the method used by all those other manufacturers)

This does acknowledge what i've been saying thank you, that "Roland use a different single fingered chord recognition than the other manufacturers. The Tech dept nor anyone else i've spoken to has even hinted at there being another SFC setting. In fact if this was the case I would now be the proud owner of a Roland Keyboard.

Whilst not dismissing what you're saying out of hand I feel the more qualified to answer the problem would be Roland Tech dept and that for me is where i've gone for the answers. I feel i've gone to the top and if they say "the SFC function is different from all the other manufacturers, along with every dealer i've spoken to then that's good enough for me. In any case when a dealer tells you a Keyboard is not using familiar features and advises you to not buy a Roland instrument unless you're prepared to learn a new SFC system, then that also is good enough advice for me. It would pose the same sort of problems if you bought a car that had the clutch and accelerator in different positions than every other car.

Please note i'm not (nor have ever been) interested in the rights or wrongs musically of using the single fingered chord facility or if the SFC positions are musically correct. Please remain focused on the question, and that was "if Roland uses the same SFC positions as the other leading manufacturers", and the answer from Dealers and Roland themselves is "NO ROLANDS SYSTEM IS DIFFERENT"

If you still disagree so be it but that's what Roland UK inform prople.

Kind regards

Peter

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#303447 - 02/08/04 04:01 AM Re: VA7 Single finger chord facility?
Burkels Offline
Member

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 319
Loc: Alkmaar, The Netherlands, Euro...
Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Lowden:
Whilst not dismissing what you're saying out of hand I feel the more qualified to answer the problem would be Roland Tech dept and that for me is where i've gone for the answers. I feel i've gone to the top and if they say "the SFC function is different from all the other manufacturers, along with every dealer i've spoken to then that's good enough for me. (...) and the answer from Dealers and Roland themselves is "NO ROLANDS SYSTEM IS DIFFERENT" If you still disagree so be it but that's what Roland UK inform prople.


You lost me here. I have here a Roland EXR-5 keyboard that allows me to set the SFC to Roland/Korg standards OR the settings YOU wish to have. It's a Roland. It works that way. I have it here. I told you.

But since someone at Roland (who obviously didn't know what he was talking about) and a dealer (who obviously did not know what he was talking about either) told you that what I say is not true, you state that I talk nonsense?

I'll think twice next time before I try to be of help in a thread here. I don't like being called a liar.
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#303448 - 02/08/04 06:59 AM Re: VA7 Single finger chord facility?
Peter Lowden Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 367
Loc: England
Now hang on Burkels, simmer down, NO one is calling anybody anything!!

Like I say i'm not going to dismiss what you've been saying, it just differs from what i'm being told elsewhere, nothing more, nothing less.

To show my open mindedness on this subject and the fact that i'd still like to own a Roland VA7, perhaps you'd be agreeable to email me the page from within the owners manual, where it says about Single Fingered Chord settings.

I've also got a printout chart that I put together sometime ago, that I emailed to Roland, Korg Wersi etc.
The printout contains all the single fingered chord positions for Yamaha and Technics keyboards. Again if you're agreeable I could email you this and you can check them, just as Roland UK have done.

My email address is:

peterloudon@wight365.net

PS Let's start again, i'd like to get to the bottom of this.

Kind regards

Peter

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#303449 - 02/08/04 08:50 AM Re: VA7 Single finger chord facility?
Graham UK Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/20/01
Posts: 1822
Loc: Lincolnshire UK
A number of Single Fingered Chords require up to 3 fingers. Its very little more effort learn the correct way using Fingered Chords.
Single F C playing is limited to the types of chords possible to play. Once anyone has mastered full fingered chords they will get so much more enjoyment from their playing.

Dave is correct because playing single fingered chords the Roland way...you are automatically part way to learning how to play fingered chords.

Graham UK.

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#303450 - 02/08/04 09:10 AM Re: VA7 Single finger chord facility?
Burkels Offline
Member

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 319
Loc: Alkmaar, The Netherlands, Euro...
Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Lowden:
Now hang on Burkels, simmer down, NO one is calling anybody anything!!

I may have misread what you meant to say. Whatever the case, I overreacted. My apologies. I was not in the best of moods this morning when I wrote that. (No, I didn't drink too much last night :-) )

Quote:
To show my open mindedness on this subject and the fact that i'd still like to own a Roland VA7, perhaps you'd be agreeable to email me the page from within the owners manual, where it says about Single Fingered Chord settings.

That's where some of the misunderstanding creeps in, I'm afraid. I was under the impression that Roland told you they simply don't have any other ways to use SFC than the Roland-style. I don't know if specificly the VA-7 can do this any other way, I do know my EXR-5 can.
Quote:
I've also got a printout chart that I put together sometime ago, that I emailed to Roland, Korg Wersi etc.
The printout contains all the single fingered chord positions for Yamaha and Technics keyboards. Again if you're agreeable I could email you this and you can check them, just as Roland UK have done.

The manual of my EXR-5 contains a chart where all the chords are displayed (fingersettings) along with the keys you must use to get that chord in the arranger. I too will be more than happy to scan that page and e-mail it to you. I am certainly interested in your chart, since Roland did not add that chart in the manual.
Quote:
PS Let's start again, i'd like to get to the bottom of this.

Again, I apologize for my reaction earlier. To my defense I can only say English is not my native tongue, which still causes misunderstandings from time to time. I'll look up the meaning of "dismiss" next time :-)


------------------
Roland EXR-5 user - http://www.exr5.tk
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#303451 - 02/08/04 09:15 AM Re: VA7 Single finger chord facility?
Peter Lowden Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 367
Loc: England
Thanks Graham,

Like I keep say "Which is the better method of Single Fingered Chord placement etc" is of no interest to me (never has been).

To repeat my original post at the top of this thread "Does the Roland VA7 recognize single finger chording in the same manner the Technics and Yamaha keyboards do?

With reference Graham to your line that says "playing single fingered chords the Roland way...you are automatically part way to learning how to play fingered chords.

So the Roland way is better (Like I say "not interested if it's better or not") but it is different then Graham, from the other keyboard manufacturers. Can you just confirm it is different, as this is exactly what Roland UK and dealers I have spoken to have told me.

Thanks for your help Graham, do you know of the additional SFC mode (as mentioned by Burkels in this thread) which uses the more common method of SFC used by Yamaha, Korg Wersi Technics and Gem (just reminding all again I'm not interested in what method is best)

Kind regards

Peter

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#303452 - 02/08/04 09:53 AM Re: VA7 Single finger chord facility?
Burkels Offline
Member

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 319
Loc: Alkmaar, The Netherlands, Euro...
Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Lowden:
I've also got a printout chart that I put together sometime ago, that I emailed to Roland, Korg Wersi etc.


I scanned the MD1-settings from the Roland manual, find them here:

http://members.chello.nl/burkels1/exr5/md1-chords-a.gif
http://members.chello.nl/burkels1/exr5/md1-chords-b.gif

------------------
Roland EXR-5 user - http://www.exr5.tk

[This message has been edited by Burkels (edited 02-08-2004).]
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#303453 - 02/08/04 10:05 AM Re: VA7 Single finger chord facility?
Peter Lowden Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 367
Loc: England
Many thanks for your MD1-Settings

Checked them through and they are different than Technics Yamaha etc.

What is interesting is some are the same for instance G7 & C7 but GM7 & CM7 etc are different, no dought you can see this when you compare them to the charts i've sent you using the Technics Yamaha etc method.

You mentioned the MD2 mode have you charts for these?

Kind regards

Peter

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#303454 - 02/08/04 10:36 AM Re: VA7 Single finger chord facility?
Burkels Offline
Member

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 319
Loc: Alkmaar, The Netherlands, Euro...
Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Lowden:
Many thanks for your MD1-Settings
Checked them through and they are different than Technics Yamaha etc.
Correct, this is the "standard Roland method"
Quote:
You mentioned the MD2 mode have you charts for these?

Yes, you sent them to me In other words: In MD2 mode, my Roland EXR-5 follows the Yamaha/Technics chart completely. Checked every chord just now. (Roland did not include that chart in my manual though, but thanks to you I now have them :-) )

Regards,
Bart

------------------
Roland EXR-5 user - http://www.exr5.tk
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#303455 - 02/08/04 10:46 AM Re: VA7 Single finger chord facility?
Peter Lowden Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 367
Loc: England
This is very interesting Burkels

Can you scan me the page in the manual for your Roland EXR-5 Keyboard where it mentions and gives explanation for the MD2 Mode.

Many thanks

Peter

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#303456 - 02/08/04 01:30 PM Re: VA7 Single finger chord facility?
rolandfan Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/02
Posts: 918
Loc: South Africa
I'm pretty sure the VA7 can do everything the EXR5 can do (except cover function) and a hundred things the EXR5 cant.

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#303457 - 02/08/04 01:38 PM Re: VA7 Single finger chord facility?
Peter Lowden Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 367
Loc: England
I've done a bit of more research Bart.

Correct me if i'm wrong please, but has the VA7 been about 2-3 years old, and recently had an upgrade to Version 2.

Is your keyboard the EXR-5 been out only a very short time?

I think you hit the nail on the head earlier in our debate, it looks very much like the MD2 Mode has only become available recently and is not available on the VA7.

What surprises me is that Roland UK Tech Dept
did not mention that the new range ie: the EXR-3 & EXR-5 has this new feature for Single Fingered chord recognition.

Is there a new flagship arranger keyboard dur out soon from Roland to replace the VA7 & VA76 keyboards? if so there's a good chance
the new MD-2 mode will be available on it?

I'm going to telephone the Roland Tech dept UK Tomorrow, to get things clarified.

Let you know how I get on Bart

Thanks for your help on this, who knows I may get that Roland instrument yet.

Kind regards

Peter

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#303458 - 02/08/04 01:50 PM Re: VA7 Single finger chord facility?
Burkels Offline
Member

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 319
Loc: Alkmaar, The Netherlands, Euro...
Quote:
Originally posted by rolandfan:
I'm pretty sure the VA7 can do everything the EXR5 can do (except cover function) and a hundred things the EXR5 cant.

Sure. But that's not the issue at hand, is it? Besides, we're talking about two "quite" different priceranges here. This is not a "my board is better than yours" thread, it's about Roland not giving correct information, as far as I can see
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#303459 - 02/08/04 01:57 PM Re: VA7 Single finger chord facility?
Burkels Offline
Member

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 319
Loc: Alkmaar, The Netherlands, Euro...
Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Lowden:
Is your keyboard the EXR-5 been out only a very short time?

Yes, it hit the stores last October, or sometime around that (may vary depending in which country you live)
Quote:
I think you hit the nail on the head earlier in our debate, it looks very much like the MD2 Mode has only become available recently and is not available on the VA7.

I did some "Googling" myself too on the VA-7 specs, but I found no information about variable arranger settings like the EXR-series has.
Quote:
What surprises me is that Roland UK Tech Dept did not mention that the new range ie: the EXR-3 & EXR-5 has this new feature for Single Fingered chord recognition.

Well that's exactly what I meant in my reply this morning: If Roland told you that Roland uses a different approach by definition, the information you got was incorrect or at least not complete. Maybe because the guy you talked to assumed that you wouldn't be interested in a new feature in the lowrange boards since you were talking about a VA-7.

On the other hand, I find it quite likely that Roland will implement this MD1/MD2 thing in the new "flagship" boards as well, maybe even in an upgrade for the VA-5/7, like you suggested. I do not have access to information about developments in that area, so I can't answer your question about that, I'm afraid. Maybe Fran knows more?

Regards,
Bart

------------------
Roland EXR-5 user - http://www.exr5.tk
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#303460 - 02/08/04 01:57 PM Re: VA7 Single finger chord facility?
Peter Lowden Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 367
Loc: England
I've looked for my original email to Roland Tech dept (can't find it) but I'm sure my question to them was:

Does the Roland VA7 use the same single fingered chord recognition as Yamaha & Technics. Their answer was NO. This is correct so long as there is no MD-2 mode.
If there is an MD-2 mode then they gave me false information and lost the sale of a Roland keyboard.

We'll see what they say when I ring them, one things for sure they've not been quite so efficient as one would expected.

Kind regards

Peter

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#303461 - 02/09/04 07:53 AM Re: VA7 Single finger chord facility?
Peter Lowden Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 367
Loc: England
Just to let you know.

I phoned Roland UK today, and got some answers, firstly the new Single Fingered Chord mode MD-2 was news to the Tech dept, they've been requesting this feature for some time and it's only today that they've been enlightened st to it being available on the new instruments.

The VA7 and VA76 does not have the new feature, but any new flagship will probably have it.

Hope this clarifies the matter.

Kind regards

Peter

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#303462 - 02/09/04 08:11 AM Re: VA7 Single finger chord facility?
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 8942
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Peter in my opinion, the MD-2 is useless..Two[or three] wrongs don't make it right...

Roland already has the best method[intelligent mode], it plays correct in one or two fingers[musically correct fingering] or full 3 or 4 even 5 note chords..If you screw up and miss a third or fifth,it compensates for your error..

The flagship keyboards from Roland also include the "standard"[must play full 3 note chord to be totally correct, although it won't be devastating to the ear], and "piano style"[will not read a chord change untill a mininum of 3 note chords are played]...

These three methods are all anyone needs...That comforming [to other manufacturers system] playing mode is Mickey Mouse..
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#303463 - 02/09/04 08:21 AM Re: VA7 Single finger chord facility?
Peter Lowden Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 367
Loc: England
Hi Fran,

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

The MD-2 feature is certainly not useless as far as Roland are concerned hence the reason they've introduced it. They have over time had a lot of requests for the feature to be introduced, I think it's good that Roland have listened to what there future customers want.

Like I say "it doesn't matter what's best musically etc" if it's something the customer wants, let them have it.

Wouldn't you agree Fran?

Kind regards

Peter

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#303464 - 02/09/04 08:36 AM Re: VA7 Single finger chord facility?
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 8942
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Peter I agree, although I wish manufacturers would listen to more important ideas we request..

Thankfully ,I am glad we will have choices for what method we want to use[I hope flagship models do not automatically default to this comforming method], I doubt it will... I have owned MI stores for twenty years, I never had any customer tell me they wished arrangers use this method[originally Casio method]..I wonder who has requested this,[UK?]..

[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 02-09-2004).]
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#303465 - 02/09/04 08:51 AM Re: VA7 Single finger chord facility?
Peter Lowden Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 367
Loc: England
Hi Fran,

I suppose the measure of importance varies considerably from person to person

What's not important to some people is essential to others.

A pianist would argue that good piano sounds are important, whereas an organist would argue......do you see what i mean?

All the best Fran

Peter

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#303466 - 02/09/04 08:56 AM Re: VA7 Single finger chord facility?
Burkels Offline
Member

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 319
Loc: Alkmaar, The Netherlands, Euro...
Quote:
Originally posted by Fran Carango:
Roland already has the best method[intelligent mode], it plays correct in one or two fingers[musically correct fingering] or full 3 or 4 even 5 note chords..If you screw up and miss a third or fifth,it compensates for your error..

The flagship keyboards from Roland also include the "standard"[must play full 3 note chord to be totally correct, although it won't be devastating to the ear], and "piano style"[will not read a chord change untill a mininum of 3 note chords are played]...

These three methods are all anyone needs...That comforming [to other manufacturers system] playing mode is Mickey Mouse..

In fact, not only the "flagships" do offer three methods. The EXR-5 has three methods as well. MD1 and MD2 as discussed, and the "OFF" setting, where the arranger follows the exact chord you play, although it will accept chordchanges with only one or two keys pressed. The style will follow the number of keys you use, i.e. it will be more complicated the more keys you use.

------------------
Roland EXR-5 user - http://www.exr5.tk
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#303467 - 02/09/04 09:39 AM Re: VA7 Single finger chord facility?
Peter Lowden Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 367
Loc: England
Hi Fran

With reference to your comments: "I have owned MI stores for twenty years, I never had any customer tell me they wished arrangers use this method[originally Casio method]..I wonder who has requested this,[UK?]..

I've off course have no idea who, but must be hundreds of people I would presume, to make Roland sit up and listen and to now offer this feature.

I was under the impression like the majority probably that all the leading manufacturers used the same Single fingered chord mode, it surprised me when I was informed that Roland did not use what has become the industry standard single fingered chord used by all the other leading manufacturers (until now that is).

Did you stock Roland instruments in your shop Fran?

All the best

Peter

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#303468 - 02/09/04 10:27 AM Re: VA7 Single finger chord facility?
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 8942
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Yes Peter, and I am a long time fan of Roland products..

I would be curious to hear George Kaye and Dan Oneil comments..

Personally I can't think of one advantage for awkward chord fingering of this method[any key to the left of root etc,]..Maybe Roland is just adding this to entry level boards to have a comparable feature to other entry level boards..

It surely is not advanced and I can't see it necessary on Top of the Line arrangers..
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#303469 - 02/09/04 10:42 AM Re: VA7 Single finger chord facility?
Peter Lowden Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 367
Loc: England
Hi Fran

With regard: Personally I can't think of one advantage for awkward chord fingering of this method[any key to the left of root etc,]..Maybe Roland is just adding this to entry level boards to have a comparable feature to other entry level boards..

It surely is not advanced and I can't see it necessary on Top of the Line arrangers..

Yamaha, Technics, Korg, Gem, Wersi have all used the same method for years(at least 10), now Roland have moved over to the same method. This method is available on all flagship models including Tyros, KN7000, Korg PA1XPRO, Wersi Abacus, etc etc, also according to Roland UK it will appear on any new Roland Flagship/s

I think any system is only awkward if you're not used to it Fran.

Kind regards

Peter

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