Before I begin, let me point out that I have been an active member of SZ since 2004 and have never written a negative review on any keyboard nor have I engaged in any sort of brand bashing. I'll also point out that I've owned the Tyros, Tyros 2, Tyros 3 and now the Tyros 4, as well as the s910 (my traveling keyboard), and the Korg Pa2x.

With that introduction, here goes:

If you’re upgrading from the T2 or lower, and customization is not important to you, you’ll be happy with the T4. But if you’re upgrading from the T3, and/or customization IS important to you, this keyboard is NOT for you.

The Tyros 4 is an update, not an upgrade, and it is full of bugs.

The Tyros 3 by comparison, was a proper upgrade to the T2. On the hardware end, it added sliders, a new user layout, better resolutions screen. In the sound department, it added amazing synths, 6 new drum kits, pianos, saxes, trumpets. In the software department, it added an advanced sampling section that cut down sample load times by 90%, and of course SA2 technology.

Let’s compare that to what the T4 adds to the T3: New pop and gospel voices, VH2 and Flash Ram if you pay an additional $300. Essentially everything else is the same. Yamaha didn’t even design a new case.

Let’s look at this objectively:

- There is no reason to build a new keyboard for the voices, because the T3 already has the capacity to load new expansion voices. Yamaha even produced an SA2 Trombone and Pan Flute for sale for the T3 and could have done the same with all the new instruments on the T4. (Of course the Trombone and Pan Flute are not in the T4, because you’re supposed to pay extra for them.)

In my opinion, the pop and gospel voices are corny. I don’t plan to ever use them in a performance. In fact I wish there was a setting that would allow me to mute them from all styles.

Some of the voices are updated, but it’s a joke. Take the pianos for example. All the pianos were changed into SA2 voices. Apparently this gives them resonance and key off sounds. If you've ever had the good fortune of playing a sampled piano, you know what an advantage this is. It brings the piano to life. Now, I have a pretty good ear and sat with both keyboards side by side and tried to hear the difference. Here is a short clip. Can you tell the difference? http://musicbychony.com/music/pianocomparison2.mp3 . Neither can I.

There are three new drum kits. Real drums, Real brushes, and Drum Machine. These are actually good kits, but too few to be considered an upgrade.

The new guitars are good, the ability to use SA voices in styles is also a plus. But quite honestly, altogether, the new sounds are nothing to write about.

I was really shocked however that the T4 does not have the Chinese, Indian, and Arabic ethnic percussion of the s910. It just makes no sense at all that the mid-line keyboard has more percussion options than the flagship. What’s going on here? This is a first!

- The VH2 seems alright, but people don't buy a new $3500 keyboard because they can sing into it, especially since you can pay $300 and get a machine which does it much better.

- The option to have Flash Ram is good, but you can only use Yamaha’s product, so you have to shell out an additional $300 (no discounts). Basically the upgrade is that instead of waiting 1 minute for the samples to load; you wait 15 seconds.

Now, to tell you the truth, I knew all of this going in, but decided to buy it anyway because I felt I could improve my music product even slightly with this machine. But nothing prepared me for the problems I have encountered over the last few days.

In short, if you have any thoughts of customizing your keyboard, be aware that the T4 is full of bugs.

Editing custom styles is very frustrating. For example I wanted to change the volume on an instrument on one of my custom styles. So I change it in the style creator. But then I realize that the “Bass” instrument has mysteriously changed. So I change the Bass back. Only to realize that now all the volumes and instruments for the entire style have changed for no apparent reason. Every time I fix one thing, another problem arises. I sat on a single style tonight for an hour trying to get it back to normal with no success. It was like a game of hide and seek. Every time I identified a problem, it would duck and reappear in a different form somewhere else. There were some styles that I managed to fix, only to return to them 5 minutes later and find they were all corrupted again.

I am sure this is a T4 problem and not a problem in my styles, because these very same styles work beautifully on my T3. Basically there are bugs in the T4 programming.

This really surprised me because I’m used to Yamaha putting out stable instruments. Although I’ve owned all the Yamaha flagships, I’ve never needed to update the system software because I’d never encountered problems. But in the case of the Tyros 4, although there is no significant change in the software from the T3, it is full of bugs. I have other custom styles that sometimes work and sometimes do not. It’s really bizarre.

Not only have my styles taken on a life of their own, my samples have too. Some of them have become really loud, some of them really soft. Many of my samples are middle eastern percussion. Even though the percussion volume is set to 80 for a style, it is deafening loud in one variation, almost impossible to hear in another. Sometimes within a single variation it will dip for no reason. I tried editing the volumes so that they would be somewhat equal, but ran into the problems I described previously.

If there was someone at Yamaha to speak with, it would help. But unfortunately Yamaha does not have a number to a technical service department.

In conclusion, it seems to me that Yamaha has made the mistake of taking its customers for granted. They feel that “if we build it, they’ll buy it.” They don’t seem to understand that the reason the T3 was such a success is because it was a genuine upgrade. I do not believe the T4 will see anything close to that success.

I bought this keyboard unheard and unseen because I trusted Yamaha. I just can’t help but feel that I’ve been taken advantage of.

Finally someone wrote a very good and informative report.
Thank you chony, good work!

I'm still wondering why they sell Yamaha T4 lower priced than T3 that still are in stock.
Never seen this happen before, least here in Norway. Normally successors always priced
higher or at least at the same level, when older models get a lower pricelevel.

Cheers
GJ

Chony-

How long have you had the T4?

Thanks for the review....

------------------
Bill in Dayton

Hi Choney,


I am not sure what method you used to edit your custom syles,but the method I used gave no problems.

IF its any help,My method,
1. Press intro3 and direct axcess
2. Alter perameters.
3. go into style cerator,press save and save to the area of your choice.I have tried this with both a custom and internal style.No problem.

Gilbert

[This message has been edited by gilbert (edited 10-31-2010).]

Hi chony
Very interesting review, with the initial statement being completely opposite to my impression, in that apart from the SA2 voices I found the T3 to be overall a retrograde step after the T2, (1 Step forward, 3 steps back) whereas from what I have heard so far, the T4 is what the T3 should have been, and a true replacement for the T2. (An opinion shared by a lot of users on various forums as well)
Just goes to show how different users interpret the sound and OS of instruments.

There were problems with the processing power of the T3 (Well Documented) which when using some of the premium vocal packs, caused the styles to stutter, and weird sounds to occur, therefore the T3 was already maxed out and was unlikely to be able to be updated further. (The new T4 has significantly increased processing power, (According to Yamaha) and the vocal packs now work sweet as a nut)

I frequent various forums, and the bugs you mention I have not seen elsewhere, and this combined with the fact that you think the T4 is only marginally better than the T3, (Plus Yamahas normally rock solid OS) would lead me to suspect that you have a faulty keyboard.

I would contact a Yamaha service centre to see what they say.

I noticed that a link to this thread has been posted on the YPKO Forum http://www.yamahapkowner.com/forum/index.php so it might be worthwhile keeping an eye on what they come up with.

I hope all your problems get sorted quickly, (I am sure Yamaha will sort it, as soon as they are made aware of it)

Regards

Bill

I would have to agree that you must have a faulty keyboard. There are dozens of folks at the yamahapkowner forum who have had their T4s for weeks. Eileen even creates her own styles, and I'm sure she's been using the style editor like crazy to upgrade her custom styles.

You must have a faulty machine.

I have never found Yamaha tech support to be waiting at the phone with bated breath. On the other hand, they will almost always call you within 24 hours. Sometimes I have gotten them on the phone after a 15 minute wait. It depends. You will resolve these problems don't worry.

In the meantime, you can see if any other T4 owner can reproduce the bugs that are in your unit.

Drums are the backbone of almost any song, so if you have several vastly improved drum kits that appear in almost every song you do, that's a pretty big deal.

It sounds like the improvements in the grand piano are too subtle to satisfy.

Good luck.

Beakybird

Sounds like you have experienced some problems and are familiar to Yamaha support then?

You might find this an interesting read. http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=56309

It's me reflecting on the last 15 years and how little progress has been made compared to the speed the software / VSTi / DAW world has exploded in such a short space of time.

I'm also taking a pop at Yamaha who as the inventors of VL-Technology have lost all of their innovation. My rant hasn't very much to do with Arrangers specifically even though I do talk a little on the Tyros. It's more about everything in general to be honest.

Yamaha is milking their users like Cows. The Motif series has been milked to death, and the same can be said with the Tyros. There's nothing wrong with bring out new keyboards every 2 years, but for crying out loud lets see some seriously development and not incremental upgrades that could have been sold on a CD.

Regards
James

If waiting until the end of the day or until the very next day is a problem, then I have.

All my technical issues were resolved to my satisfaction.

Yamaha even replaced for free a buggy PSR-S900 that I severely scratched.

Beakybird

Spoken like a true blue Korgian fanboy.

Just to balance the scales, Korg has been doing the very same...basically since the I-series.

Does it make it right?

Companies that don't make a profit, generally fail...unless the rules have been changed?

It's nice to see Korg and Yamaha still in the business of making TOTL/MOTL arrangers, even if some people don't think they develop them enough, or grow to what they think they should.

These companies could be in Roland's situation, and making none at all.

Thankfully we still have them.

Ian

Chony, what an absolute lovely review. The last Yamaha board I owned was the Tyros 2 so going to the T4 seems to be a natural and logical progression for me.

Btw, I visited your web site and those custom styles really rock. Did you create those from scratch? The video in which you RIFF, is an interesting take on the genre, both very rockin' yet traditional sounding. I assume you are playing the T3? Was that a stock guitar you were playing? It sounded very nice.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to write a review- i found it very helpful.

Al

Hi Ian.



lol... I fail to see how you make that out where there were only ever 4 flashship arrangers.

i3, i30, Pa1X, Pa2X.

Now look at what flagship arrangers Yamaha released in the same time frame.

PSR-6000
PSR-7000
PSR 8000
PSR 9000
PSR 9000 Pro
Tyros 1
Tyros 2
Tyros 3
Tyros 4

That's called Milking the Cow.

Regards
James.

Whatever...regardless of the number, they milk cows just the same.

That was my point...thanks for confirming it.

Is it wrong? If they are still in business (Yamaha and Korg), they must be doing something right.

Moo-hoo to you.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-31-2010).]

lol... but at least KORG don't rape the cow in the process.

Who knows for sure...whatever the case, they seem to be getting the same amount of milk...just like you and I are getting the same milking out of these old criticisms. Ha ha.

Again, I say, we are very fortunate they (Yamaha and Korg) still make great TOTL/MOTL arrangers however they do it...my sympathies to our brothers, the Roland fanboys.

Ian

You've missed out the Korg PA-80 which replaced the I-30 and was superseded by the pa1x, i had all 3.

You've missed out the Korg PA-80 which replaced the I-30 and was superseded by the pa1x, i had all 3.

So basically, Korg had 5 TOTL arrangers, and Yamaha had 8, because the PSR9000 Pro was a 76 key variation of the PSR9000. Not a big deal.

Beakybird

Many would disagree about what the Pa80 was as it was an intermediate product to the Pa1X and the switch of production from Japan to Italy. It's not that important though.

Your still looking at 2 Yamaha keyboards for every 1 KORG put out.

Now, how about that Motif line of keyboards

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 10-31-2010).]

Certainly it's not important.

However,Yamaha was continually developing new features/technology, allowing them to introduce a new arranger more often than Korg.

Ian

The edge goes to the Roland fanboys...no one has topped the G70 yet...so we are content and need not to keep searching for something better...

And if you think Yamaha has all these features and technology gains..you are still out to lunch...Yamaha continues to be the re package king of all times..far exceeding Casio....

If they are not enough of a upgarde..don't buy them. On an ongoing basis.
That's the only way to send the message to the Mfg's.

Example. The PA2XPRO is one heck of a machine already...if the new one is not significantly better...I won't bite.

It's too darn expensive to upgrade all the time.

Lee S.

VIDEO LINK REMOVED. After further research into the issue Brought up - I withdraw my comments about losing credibility for IrishActs and apologise formally to him and CHONY for sending this thread to another place.

Nick

[This message has been edited by Nick G (edited 10-31-2010).]

I just got back from having lunch at a new restaurant.

I stopped eating at the one down the road...the place was that successful, no one goes there anymore.

And, it was boring.

The same applies to Roland arrangers.

And, the only reason you fanboys aren't searching for a replacement for Dino, is because they don't make 'em anymore.

If they did, you'd be first in line.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-31-2010).]

Nick
You best do some homework..do you believe everyone on you -tube...I hope not...see this thread.
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=53468

Lee S.

IrishActs is always one to be first to throw accusations in the air without any 'homework'.

I had a quick look at that link above and there's obviously a lot of background that I was not aware of. Anyway I don't think we should continue this in Chony's thread.

I APOLOGISE TO CHONY for hijacking the thread and potentially taking it off topic...

I have good ears and whether or not the guy in the video is 'lying' I can hear the truth in the audio...

Chony,
I Applologise for the OT. I guess piano quality kind of got us going that direction.
Nick, The lawyers/courts will decide.
Lee S.

[This message has been edited by leeboy (edited 10-31-2010).]

Yamaha is a very GREEDY company. Once they milked me out but not any more. I am a KORG fan now

Nope you are wrong as usual...There are many choices out there..you guys always mention that...and I can afford to buy anything I want..to keep..or to sell..and I have done just that..

You seem to forget, I already owned a Tyros3..(some folks say it is better than Tyros4)...It was one of the least appealing keyboards I have owned..the same Yamaha re packaged sounds and features...they add a little tinsel here and there..and you guys drool...unbelevable...an over priced keyboard with what I consider poor over all sound...

Thus as I said..I am content and not looking for a better keyboard..there is none..currently..

I will check out the new Korg, just like I check out all keyboards...

The difference with my opinion..I know what I am talking about..
Now go eat your left overs..

Nick, I think it is out of place to even mention an unfounded accusation..I haven't heard or read a word about Yamaha bringing any suits against James...I wonder why..maybe because it is nonsense..who knows..and we should not spread any accusations..unfounded accusations ..especially with our fellow SZ members...

Perhaps I'm wrong, or perhaps not...you have always stated on this forum that you wished for an updated G-70...who's gonna make it? Korg?

Knowing what you are talking about, and being right, are two different things in your case.

Check back on your old posts...

I'll send you a doggy bag (or a Dino bag)...Ha Ha.

It's too bad you didn't like the Tyros models...I actually liked the G-70 (and E-80) quite a bit, but not enough to buy one...the styles were too much like the old E-series, and now, the technology is dated.

But, if you're happy, that's the main thing.

Ian

Totally Agree

Technology dated? What about Yamaha. They still use the same sound engine (AWM2) of ages ago.

You weren't aware of Mega Voices, SA and SA2 Voices...Guitar enhanced style engine...mmmm

Oh that's right, you're a Korgian fanboy.

Let's review:

"Korg's relationship with Yamaha had flourished since Keio Electronic had built rhythm units for Yamaha organs in the 1960s, and it appears that Yamaha had owned a small stake in Keio/Korg for many years.

However, in 1987, the relationship took another huge step forward when Yamaha bought a controlling interest in Korg Inc, effectively making it a subsidiary. Apparently, the arrangement was entirely amicable, with the exact details drawn up by Katoh himself. One of the aspects of the agreement was that both companies remained separate entities, free to develop independently, and to compete head-on in the marketplace."

Of course, Korg got back on it's feet again, lucky for you Korgians.

Yamaha doesn't sound like a greedy company to me...you are probably playing technology that began on a Yamaha.

Cool, eh?

Ian

Ian,
How could that be I thought you said 'One of the aspects of the agreement was that both companies remained separate entities, free to develop independently, and to compete head-on in the marketplace."

Lee S.

Great review Chony,
I do agree where you state that the T4 is an UPDATE not an UPGRADE.
It does depend on the users requirements though. If you are huge into sampling than the flash memory is a MUST and this would make this a huge world of difference over the previous Tyros models.

Yamaha decided to create 3 new drum kits in their Arranger workstations. YES this is great and long time needed but they should have done this to more drum kit categories…
The spec list shows over 30 drum kits now on the Tyros. To be honest they could do without half of them because just one of these new kits makes some of the older ones completely obsolete in my opinion.

I still can’t believe Yamaha has not created a new acoustic guitar sample since the SA concert guitar on the Tyros 2. Yes it’s a fantastic guitar voice (my favourite across every keyboard on the market) but you need variations!!!

The ‘new’ piano on the Tyros 4 does seem to be ‘hyped up’… the standard Grand Piano on the Motif XS was still better in my opinion and the key off sampling on the Motif line is much more visible to the ears. This Motif XS introduction video should explain it a bit better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGS_O0LRnCA

On the Arranger workstation line (Tyros), Yamaha do seem to use a lot of marketing fluff… i think the whole super articulation / mega voice stuff is all hype.
A Megavoice is just a voice or patch that has multiple velocity switching samples and different samples throughout the octave range.

Any of the voices on the Motif XS/XF can be tinkered to become a ‘megavoice’. None of the Motif voices are actually named Super Articulation voices because they mostly all have the same characteristics and can be controlled in a very similar way.

The Motif XF has the new “Section Strings” voices as well as the big Orchestral Tremolo voice. All these samples (I think) are the ones that make up the new REAL string voices on the Tyros. It’s sort of been kept quiet and un noticed on the Motif XF but the Tyros gets all the hype and attention!

Still I don’t understand why certain people claim that Yamaha are ‘milking’ the market though… If you don’t like it DON’T BUY IT!

Nick

Don't forget I have played Yamaha for years. They still sound the same with the same boring styles. And Yamaha saved Korg Wow I am impressed.

Yamaha uses what works best...AWM/AWM2 is around for a long time and improved with each iteration of the instruments.

Roland and Korg do the same...nothing inherently wrong with that as long as you improve and add new things, like SA, SA2 and Mega-Voice in Yamaha's case, and DNC in Korg's.

Roland have nothing new for their arrangers (just listen to a Prelude/GW-8), and between that, and the poor marketing that lost them considerable ground, they can't compete in today's arranger market.

Ian

I also disagree with that. I have had the roland GW8 and this machine sounded much better to me then for exampla a Yamama PSR S910. The Roland has much more power especially the synth leads and the drum sounds are awesome.

Zero credibility?

You do realise I'm the owner of KORG Forums? The biggest “””FREE””” Online community for KORG users in the world.

I've done more good for people than you could possibly imagine.

Along the way I've also come across some trolls who I've pissed off by banning them from KORG Forums, so hell yeah, I've made a few enemies and I will make more as time goes by in order to provide a quality forum for all KORG users around the world.

You however should show me some respect and apologises. You watch crap on YouTube posted by a coward who won't even stand by his own video and his accusations, and you believe what you see and hear?

That's an insult. Shame on you...!!!

If your that kind of person though, can you please post your bank details and post scan of some photo ID so I know who I'm talking to. lol..... Dude, come on man. Do you not have an actual opinion of your own or are you really that gullible.

James.

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 10-31-2010).]

double post

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 10-31-2010).]

James I did not make the video.
Its on youtube. ANYONE on this forum or the world has free access to it.

The video may be a complete false accusation and after being shown the info from Lee I may be wrong about loosing credibility for you.
But this video is no better than any of the accusations that you make against Yamaha.

“Yamaha is milking their users like Cows. The Motif series has been milked to death, and the same can be said with the Tyros. There's nothing wrong with bring out new keyboards every 2 years, but for crying out loud lets see some seriously development and not incremental upgrades that could have been sold on a CD.”

You have accused Yamaha of milking people.
You have stated that all the upgrades could be released on a CD. (how can you add Sliders and flash memory to a CD?)

You can bash Yamaha all you want and rant on about how OLD the sound engine is but I too owned a Korg PA 800 and it was around the time when Korg released the new DNC sounds.
These were basically the Korg version of Super Articulation. Yes they were free which was excellent BUT Korg HAD to release these sounds to keep up in the market (this is clearly obvious).

You can argue against that all you like.

Also your comment here:
“Lol... I fail to see how you make that out where there were only ever 4 flashship arrangers.
i3, i30, Pa1X, Pa2X.”

How many freaking Synths have Korg made over the years!!!!!! Karma, Triton, M3, M2, OASYS??
It is fair to say that Korg have been more of a Synth company than an arranger. Thus why they haven’t had the history of making so many different arrangers…

Nick

Whatever...I'm not going to waste time arguing with a Roland fanboy. They're even worse than we Yamaha fanboys, but neither of us are as bad as that Korgian bunch...read some of FransN's posts...

Enjoy your dinosaur, Fred...er...I mean Fran.

Ian

Hijack alert!!!!
This is Chony's thread reviewing a tyros 4.

Its a shame it should be turned into all the above garbage.

If you want to do that start a new thread. Please.

It's impossible to argue with you Yamaha people. You insulted James just like you did in the past. You own him a apology.

[This message has been edited by FransN (edited 10-31-2010).]

I have edited my original post on the first page and taken out the link to the YT video.

Here is my edited post to save going back a page:

VIDEO LINK REMOVED. After further research into the issue Brought up - I withdraw my comments about losing credibility for IrishActs and apologise formally to him and CHONY for sending this thread to another place.
Nick

[This message has been edited by Nick G (edited 10-31-2010).]

Thanks Nick

Nick G.

You coming here and accuse me of zero creditability is an insult of the highest order when I've done more for people online than most would accomplish in a life time.

10 years I've owned KORG Forums have given my heart and soul into it, so show me some respect and give me credit for the good I've done. It takes utter dedicated to run a massive website like that for free, and shame on you for even suggesting I'm a thief.

How would you like it if I told everyone that you were Kevin Spargo from www.ksounds.com who has posted the video in the first place. Should they also believe that too just like you believe the video without knowing anything about me?

Shall I make up lies about you? Would you like that or would it annoy you?

Further more, while I did not do anything said in that video it makes no difference either way. Where on earth do you think the Rhodes, E-Piano, Organ / B3, Synth sounds, and everything else you currently have on your keyboard was sampled from in the first place?

This stuff doesn't magically appear on a keyboard when you built it you know. Every company in the world has to sample sounds from other instruments and they ALL do it without permission as there is no requirement to ask for permission.

Why?.... You cannot copyright a sound a musical instatement produces.

So before you go accusing me of anything, get your facts right and find out something about the person being accused of illegal activity first.



Ok think about that. Since new sounds, samples and styles can be added via simple file formats the keyboards already support, what real differences are there between the Tyros 2, 3 and 4 for example.

Add all that up and truthfully tell me that Yamaha are being innovative here and each release is worthy of a new 3 to 4 grand keyboard..!!!.



This is simple, AWM 2 is about 17 years old and Yamaha have not developed anything else since then. In that time KORG have developed AL1, AL2, ACCESS, HI-SYS, EDS, HD-1.

Yamaha Super Articulation, Mega Voices and Sweet Voices are NOT a sound engines.



Look above and see the range of sound engines they have also gone through in the process.

Now name 1 and only 1 new sound engine Yamaha have introduced in the last 17 years since AWM 2.

The answer is none, not even 1.

I've no problem with that, but a few new sounds and styles is not a reson to release a new keybaord.

Thank you, that means a lot to me.

Just a general comment.

Yes, I'm a KORG Fan boy. I own KORG Forums and so yes I'm going to be very pro KORG, but please understand I'm not Anti everything else, and I don't let KORG off the hook either.

I harp on about issues like Yamaha's AWM 2 being 17 years old because it is that old and Yamaha couldn’t be bothered developing something new. I'm also not the only one, and you only need to go to the Motif forums to see people are very unhappy about that fact and that they have released another Motif.

That doesn't mean things are perfect in KORG land either even though they have release many new sound engines. The OASYS project has not turned out to be what I and many others had hoped for example and you can see that on the forums loud and clear too.

That siad, it's my right and yours as a end user to always demand more and to moan like hell about everything you get The more you do, the harder they will work.

It's a fact....! Trust me.

James,

Firstly - in case you missed it - I have removed the YT Link and formally apologised to you.
Ide rather put that to rest and I am sure you would as well...

As for the Keyboard / arranger topic -

AWM for your information is on the PSR and Tyros line...
AWM 2 is the engine used on the synth line.
I actually went through this topic a while back with FranSN (and got no where but hey ill try it again)

You can pull as many facts and timeliness out about Korg and Yamaha all you want. But Korg have a TOTL Synth (M3) and what is its direct competitor? YAMAHA MOTIF

Korg have a TOTL Arranger.. what is its competitor? Yamaha Tyros.

Both instruments in each class have their equal amount of pros and cons. Not one of them is superior to another by fact. only by needs / use and personal preference.

So Yamaha have not changed their sound engine as many times as Korg. To me it makes absolutely no difference to us as users... why should it???

As long as they are updating features and samples. which they are... what's the problem here?
To me the fact that Yamaha can keep the same technology and AWM/AWM2 engine but keep on bringing out new sounds is a great innovation by itself. why make a new engine if you Don't have to??

I just don't see your point in this argument?

This argument is almost as pointless as Linux vx Windows (for example)...

now please. back onto Chony's topic...

Nick

Why should you harp about Yamaha's AWM?

Every time you do, it's always in the context of trying to score points for Korg.

Are you that insecure about Korg you need to bash a product that, despite it's so called "17 year old" technology, sounds every bit (or better than, some would say) as good as any Korg arranger?

Really James, you take fanboy-ism to new heights.

Bravo.

Ian

Nick,
Your a gentleman..
Thanks,
Lee S.

Nick,
James has been on this Yamaha bashing trip for sometime (he is a little classier than FransN ) and it is obvious he is coming from a Korgian fanboy position.

I know many people who say both Korg and Yamaha are basically equal in sound quality (although Korg keeps searching to find something better) and these opinions come from people who own both.

Yamaha's AWM is not the AWM of old, despite have the same acronym...the samples have been steadily improved and updated over the years, to where AWM is every bit the equal(again, some would say better) of anything else on the market.

Yamaha's Clavinova Pianos use AWM...they are among the finest digitals produced.

James "point" is no more than just taking a shot at Yamaha, and using the same old BS he used before.

Re-cycled, Korgian fanboy-ism at it's finest.

Ian

Now, let's get back on topic. My apologies to Chony.


[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-31-2010).]

Forget KORG, it's not a contest by where I'm trying to urinate higher than you are on the wall in the playground at school.

AWM2 is 17 years old and in all fairness, you got to admit that regardless of how good you think it sounds, after so many years they got to be able to do a lot better.

I don't think that's at all unreasonable.



lol... no not at all. You know as well as I do that KORG keyboards have far deeper sound engines for creating all manner of synth sounds shaped in ways no Yamaha Arranger can do.

Do you deny that ?



We are both just as guilty. Got to keep them all on their toes Ian, KORG and Yamaha.

Regards
James.

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 10-31-2010).]

Hi James, I am just not sure whether you are getting AWM and AWM 2 mixed up...

AWM on tyros line - YES I agree should be a lot better and un compressed!

AWM 2 on Motif line - (complete different ball game)I am VERY happy with this sound quality. you must admit the Motif XS/XF sounds amazing...



[This message has been edited by Nick G (edited 10-31-2010).]

double post



[This message has been edited by Nick G (edited 10-31-2010).]

Yes, I agree...we are both fanboys...I never consider it an insult anymore, but rather, a compliment, or acknowledgement.

The AWM/AWM2 acronym is 17 years old James, but the samples are not.

When something works remarkably well, there is no need to change it for change sake, or because one or two Korgians think it's too old.

That last part is priceless, and basically about the flimsiest excuse for change that I've ever heard.

A newer tone generator sound engine will not guarantee that the sound it produces is better than an older sound engine...perceived sound, is, and always will be, subjective and personal

Yamaha's AWM sound is a classic and a widely accepted and very well appreciated sound...this is not my opinion, but fact.

Coca-Cola hasn't changed it's recipe, and in fact when they came out with the "new coke'...it didn't sell well.

Korg introduced their new(er) technology to catch up to Yamaha and Roland...nothing wrong there, but to some it doesn't have the warmth of the older Korg AL2 system, so it's obvious that new is not always better.

The underlying point of this roundabout discussion is that we all choose what sounds best to our ears, and new or old.

AWM and AWM2 will hopefully be around for many years to come.

The fact that Yamaha also has the incredibly expressive SA1, SA2, and Mega Voices is just icing on an otherwise very tasty cake.

No need to change a very successful basic recipe...no need to at all.

Ian

According to the specifications of the psr S910 and the Tyros 4 they have AWM 2.
But I agree that the Motif sound a lot better then the Tyros.

Please show me these specifications where you are reading them from Fran. I want a direct link or a screen shot.

Because I think you are mistaken or the specs you are looking at are wrong...

Nick

Now isn't that strange...the SA/SA2 voices on the Tyros are considered to be better than those on the Motif.

But, again, sound is subjective and personal.

That's why you play a Korg, and you've obviously made the right choice...for you.

Ian

Oops my bad. The arranger line indeed have AWM instead of AWM2.

Yea right the Tyros 3 sound better than the Motif. Dream on. No arranger in the world sound better then a synthesizer in that class. Same goes for Korg. The M3 sound better then a PA2x.

[This message has been edited by FransN (edited 10-31-2010).]

Now Frans...don't misquote...it's not nice, and poor Netiquette.

I said, "The SA/SA2 voices on the Tyros are considered to be better than those on the Motif."

Read carefully please, and stop day dreaming.

Ian

Day dreaming its night here

Hi Nick.

Yamaha compression is not the reason why the Tyros sounds as it does. It's the AWM engine and the Motif has the same issues. If compression was the root cause then the KORG Trinity which ran on 2:1 would not be known as one of the warmest and fattest sounding workstations KORG every built.

The exact same sample loaded into one keyboard can sound very different when loaded into another. The direct cause of all this can be the sound engine even when running at the most basic level.

As a KORG OASYS owner this is so freaking obvious to me that it's silly. Any KORG OASYS user will tell you the exact same thing. The HD-1 sound engine is so good that even KORG's EDS sound engine can sound muddy compared to HD-1.

So the problem is not the samples, and the fact that Yamaha have updated the samples to include better data does not directly hit the heart of the problem. The problem is that the sound system driving them is the same old technology it has always been.

Regards
James.

James fair enough but do you honestly think the Motif XS/XF sounds compressed?

Nope, it's not compression. What I'm missing when I hear the motif is warmth and a organic sound.

The motif sounds very processed and CD like to me. It seems to lack the ability to reproduce the recordings Yamaha made of the instruments they sampled in their natural an very intimate setting.

In short I want to fell like I'm listen to Yamaha's raw recordings of the sample session, not listening to a CD that was recorded later on.

I get that organic and real sound from my OASYS HD-1 engine.

Regards
James

come on guys stop messing up the thread and start a new one.

I actually posted a response back to Chony and I will re list it here in case it has been missed:

Great review Chony,
I do agree where you state that the T4 is an UPDATE not an UPGRADE.
It does depend on the users requirements though. If you are huge into sampling than the flash memory is a MUST and this would make this a huge world of difference over the previous Tyros models.
Yamaha decided to create 3 new drum kits in their Arranger workstations. YES this is great and long time needed but they should have done this to more drum kit categories…
The spec list shows over 30 drum kits now on the Tyros. To be honest they could do without half of them because just one of these new kits makes some of the older ones completely obsolete in my opinion.

I still can’t believe Yamaha has not created a new acoustic guitar sample since the SA concert guitar on the Tyros 2. Yes it’s a fantastic guitar voice (my favourite across every keyboard on the market) but you need variations!!!

The ‘new’ piano on the Tyros 4 does seem to be ‘hyped up’… the standard Grand Piano on the Motif XS was still better in my opinion and the key off sampling on the Motif line is much more visible to the ears. This Motif XS introduction video should explain it a bit better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGS_O0LRnCA

On the Arranger workstation line (Tyros), Yamaha do seem to use a lot of marketing fluff… i think the whole super articulation / mega voice stuff is all hype.
A Megavoice is just a voice or patch that has multiple velocity switching samples and different samples throughout the octave range.

Any of the voices on the Motif XS/XF can be tinkered to become a ‘megavoice’. None of the Motif voices are actually named Super Articulation voices because they mostly all have the same characteristics and can be controlled in a very similar way.

The Motif XF has the new “Section Strings” voices as well as the big Orchestral Tremolo voice. All these samples (I think) are the ones that make up the new REAL string voices on the Tyros. It’s sort of been kept quiet and un noticed on the Motif XF but the Tyros gets all the hype and attention!

Still I don’t understand why certain people claim that Yamaha are ‘milking’ the market though… If you don’t like it DON’T BUY IT!

Nick

I am sick of this pissing contest bullshit. Take this crap to the BAR and discuss "my keyboard is better than yours" there.

No one really gives a crap anymore. I wish Nigel would nip this in the bud once and for all.

Every time someone posts a review/opinion about a keyboard, all the fanboys jump out of the woodwork and counter point it with their own keyboard. I can understand a fertile constructive conversation, but a blatant pissing contest that denigrates to personal attacks?

If you LOVE your own keyboard; that's great, I congratulate you. I think it's wonderful you've found something you love. Just realize you cannot convince anyone else to adopt YOUR opinion. IT IS USELESS TO EVEN TRY!

Give it a freakin' rest already, it is BORING and obnoxious!

Hooray kbrkr!!!

Hooray kbrkr and JCkeeys!!!

Ian

Al, BRAVO!!

I'm glad to see confirmation of the Tyros4 problems...Now maybe since some Yamaha owners have confirmed this instead of saying Chony was in error or had a faulty keyboard...Yamaha can now fix the problem..I find it great when a problem is forth coming and not buried with a closed mind....I would imagine it will be a software problem...but I also feel maybe since Yamaha has an optional ram upgrade..the basic Tyros4 may have a limited internal ram...possibly causing the problems mentioned..
Has anyone with the glitch..installed the extended Ram option?

Everyone is Fran...I've been assured a fix is forthcoming.

Roland went through a bad time with the G-70's early OS, and they looked after it fairly quickly.

These companies really care for their clients.

Ian

I just got an e-mail that T4's are in stock at Sweetwater Sound. They are pulling one from stock for the retail showroom. I may have some time this week to go there to try it out.

They said another shipment is set for next week,,,so they are coming out of Yamaha pretty good right now.

Coming from my last Yamaha being a T2, I should be pretty impressed? We'll see.
I'm doing as I always do downloading the manuals...I will read them cover to cover before I go. I will also print it out and take it with me so I do not have to ask to open the one that came with it (only fair).

Anyone else in the area..be informed Sweeetwater has one available to play! It will not have the Tyros speakers on it..but, they have many speakers to use there. (Bring your own headphones)

However, if you are serious about getting it from them and you want to hear the Tyros speakers I'm sure they would pull them from stock for you to try out. When I was deciding o a MIDI cotroller KB, they pulled 4 from stock for me to try, bought the CME.

Remember there is no commitment, so you can alway still get it from Frank or George!

Lee S.

+1

------------------
TTG

That's both a great detailed review and just plain sad!

Here's hoping Steve or someone at da big Y can help you get to the bottom of these things. It may be the OS and then again it may be something else. As I recall didn't the T1 and T3 have some of these roll out problems.

I have also wondered how Y does its beta testing. It seems like many times its the simple stuff that we see that they don't for whatever reason; lack of knowledge or lack of giging experience, cultural differences, etc.

In looking at the specs I was surprized that the T4 did not offer more over the T3. Also with the economy these days its time some of these OEMs woke up and realized their price points are way to high... that or just let the product sit on the F ing shelf until they have to discount it. When one looks at something like the Motif for LESS money...

All that said... Yamaha IS a great company and in the 25 years of on the road work using their products they have _ALWAYS_ taken care of me. IF what you say is accurrate >with repeatable steps that lead to the problem< I think that Y will come out with a OS software update in short order. Make sure you send them this report.

Great JOB and please keep us informed of what happens next.... there is strength in numbers and sharing of info!

Like I said before...get the people in UK to complain about these issues...IMHO you will get faster fixes.
Lee S.