"I am tonight sat at the new Tyros 4 playing and working my way through the big sounds that this keyboard is supposed of offer. As the evening as progressed one MAJOR thing I have found with Tyros 4 is problems with polyphony - big problems!
For example, if I choose the VocalFoxtrot style from the Ballroom style section and then try to play a right hand chord with the notes D F G Bb and D - the keyboards backing vocals just vanish.

And this is apparent on other styles too!

The more you play this keyboard the more you find that anyone who can play block chords in the style or organ or big band suddenly hits a stumbling block and a big one. WHY after just 48 hours am I finding this. Surely Yamaha would have played this keyboard before releasing it? Wouldn’t they?

As they consult more and more amateur players for their design input they are forgetting those who actually want to play these instruments and not just sit button pushing as part of their retirement. After spending the best part of £3500 for a keyboard, this has to be a very annoying lack of detail from Yamaha. If you are going to create a keyboard that gives you complex backing, then at least make sure the keyboard can handle it.

As we work through our Tyros 4 in more detail we will keep you updated of the pros and cons of this instrument. It has to be said, at this point, this is the most annoying major issue that I have with this keyboard and am sure that other real players out there will experience this problem also.

Increase polyphony or cut back your styles - but don’t produce keyboards for mindless robots who just want a box to make their one finger playing sound good. Keep going down this route and we will have the X Factor of Keyboards! All looks and no talent."

scottyee,

Read his other report as well.

http://www.jazzhooves.com/2010/10/tyros-4-the-review-you-have-been-waiting-for/

HE says, Best Keyboard in the World.

You can also read on other forums members who have proved his claim not to hold water
Gilbert

[This message has been edited by gilbert (edited 10-28-2010).]

[This message has been edited by gilbert (edited 10-28-2010).]

Looks like again "USER ERROR" again as they should of demoed the unit well before they purchased to see if it was actually something that would fit their needs....
but obviously they get all hyped up, go spend their money say it's great then and then complain after the fact 48 hrs later.....so who is really at fault here?
The only one who is gonna makeout here is Ebay

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-28-2010).]

I love this one...

http://www.jazzhooves.com/2010/10/lazy-musicians/

Here,HIS OTHER REPORT.

Well we flew to Germany and sat with a Tyros 4 for just 2 hours and what a superb 2 hours we had.

Yes, the instrument looks the same as Tyros 3 and for those of you who want a major upgrade from Tyros 3, you will be disappointed. Tyros 4 in my view is the keyboard that Tyros 3 should have been. More SA voices give this keyboard the ability to create a really powerful sound and the new vocal voices are what make this keyboard different.
Using vocal samples in the backing makes this new Tyros 4 pretty unique and fun to play.

Lots of new freeplay styles allow you to be more creative and kills that idea that every tyros player ultimately sounds the same as the next. Simply put, Tyros 4 allows you to be more creative and is much more of an orchestral instrument. There is a whole section of string freeplay patterns that allow you to play in a free orchestral style and I love them! If you are a single finger player with limited ability, then you will find these a little boring as you don’t have lots of parts covering up for you, but real musicians will find these styles a breath of fresh air!

AT LAST the dance section of the keyboard gets a big kick up the arse and the new dance styles now sound more relevant to today’s modern dance music. Big band section now has more umph and of course the use of vocal sounds is used throughout the keyboard.

The piano voice on the keyboard sounds more steinway and has a much more rich tone, and using the new speakers, the Tyros 4 seriously will annoy the neighbours. The depth of bass is heavier and having noticed that these speakers are used with the Yamaha digital drum kit, the overall tone is richer.

Guitars - wow. The guitar voices were already superb, but the new voices are just one step closer to god, they really are stunning. Strings - oh dear. Yamaha just cannot seem to get the idea that some musicians want hollywood style strings, not a cat scraping down a post. They are too harsh and having heard strings on other instruments, this is my biggest disappointment.

The new EURO organ section means that anyone who owns a wersi organ can sell up and move out they are SO GOOD! I never thought Yamaha could reproduce a really good set of euro organ sounds, but this new set of drawbars gives one hell of a sound.

Sold yet?… we haven’t finished yet.

Finally the drum sounds are the best thing yet. The brush samples in the big band section sound so realistic I kept waiting for the drummer to ask for a drink! They are uber real, wiping the floor with any other arranger keyboard.

Add the new MP3 capability and the new FLASH memory system, this keyboard is as of now the best keyboard in the world - yes I SAID WORLD. As a portable keyboard this is the best we have heard. Taking into account that I had access to instruments from Korg, Roland and many others, this is one superb instrument.

I’ve got mine on order and I would advise you do the same, these will sell like hot cakes and god help the man who comes between me and my Tyros 4!
Have we gone a little too far.. I don’t think so! Not far enough.

Gilbert

... any other T4 owners have this problem?
t.

One Touch Settings generally mix three sounds with a harmony setting, especially on Big Band and Ballroom Styles, as well as Organ styles...they aren't intended for the player to play "block" RH chords, as the notes (chords) are already being played by the harmony.

In fact, if you play block chords, on any instrument with stacked voices and the harmony on, it sounds like mush...so why use this technique?

Ian

Remember, sustain can also have an effect on the polyphony useage.

Also the polyphony algorythems are different on different instruments. My Kurzweil K2600 only has 64 but, the way it is implememnted...you don't hear many complaints about running out. I never have.

128 seems like a lt, but in the right combinations you could defineltly run out.
You can prbably come up with a way to run out on any instrument. Heavy sequencing is one way.

Normal use on a T4, IMHO, I would not worry about it.

Lee S.

I would not be surprised at all...Yamaha has had polyphony problems in the past..My experience with a PSR320..even though it was only 32 note polyphony..just muted all sounds for several seconds (unacceptable)..they needed voice allocation like even the 24 voice Sound canvas...

The other was the flagship 9000 Pro and PSR9000...they had 128 voice polyphony ( maybe it should have said elements)...but strings and piano with a hold pedal..produced poor drop out..without allocation (again)....

I thought Yamaha might have finally fixed this...but apparently not ..by this report..and I do believe the report...

Before the Yamaha supporters chime in..that it works for them...wouldn't you want an allocation system that sets priorities?

Put it in words that have condemned Audya...A big chunk of money..it should work as a top keyboard..

Fran,
Absolutely, you want the polyphony allocation by priorities (You should see how Kurzweil does it, amazing). Yamaha's does not do that? Are you sure, hard to believe. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just surprised.

Lee S.

Lee I don't know if the newer Yamaha uses reserve allocation..but the older models didn't..but something doesn't work according to reports...Maybe Yamaha has to poll there membership and find out if this is good marketing strategy..

I believe the report to be accurate as well.

I also believe that playing block chords when the instrument already has harmony assigned to the stacked voices, would tax the polyphony of any instrument.

Ian

Yep Ian I agree...why would the guy play block chords in RH with harmony turnd on?

That had to sound like crap.

Lee S.

Actually, Fran, I honestly do not know.

Does the G-70 use reserve voice allocation?

Ian

YES

Did you try stacking 3 voices in the RH, and applying Melody Intelligence, or whatever Roland now calls automatic harmony...and checking to see if you lose any voices in the style (or elsewhere)....especially Big Band or other styles that use lots of style parts.

Perhaps Diki, and other G-70 users, could try this as well?

Same for the Korgians.

Ian

Gilbert, your above cited report was Leigh Wilbraham's initial reaction written back on Oct 9th following a relatively short 2 hr demo, and without sufficient opportunity to really delve into the keyboard himself.

The latest recent report (Oct 25) was written only after purchasing & now owning the Tyros4 himself, and finally having extensive time to explore & play it.



Can you please provide a link.



Hi Ian. I seriously doubt Leigh attempted to play RH block chords with Tyros4's 'harmony button' on. Leigh's arranger keyboard knowledge and pro level musicianship evidenced by this video by him certainly appears to attest to this.

That said, because I too like to play arranger kb in a similar jazz style to Leigh's video, I'm now anxious to find out how serious (if at all) polyphony is on Tyros4. Any other Tyros4 owners (or those who have auditioned one) care to comment? Thanks. - Scott

Scott Yee Entertainment

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 10-28-2010).]

"Hi Ian. I seriously doubt Leigh attempted to play RH block chords with Tyros4's 'harmony button' on. Leigh's arranger keyboard knowledge and pro level musicianship evidenced by this video by him certainly appears to attest to this."


Scott, I did not know it was Leigh who wrote the article...

However, even with his level of musicianship, it could happen.

Perhaps Leigh himself should be consulted.

Ian

Scottye,
Thanks for the heads up I was not aware who compiled the Reports only they were written by the same person,Reading the two conflicting reports made me question the credibility of either.

Regarding the other members report see,
http://www.yamahapkowner.com/forum/index.php?topic=27625.0

Read the whole thread.

Gilbert.

It reads like a Typical fan club...Seldom will disenchanted Yamaha owners speak up...but when they do....the teeth show from the Yamaha fans...These are the same folks that said how great Leigh sounds playing the Tyros4 in another video...they don't know it was Leigh also...

That's because it is a fan club...no different than the fanboy crowd at Roland arranger...which, for some explicable reason, is very slow lately...

Ian

NO. Happy T4 owner!

Fran,
I respect the points you make,If that's your opinion, fine.

I see that Ian has put a more realistic slant to the thread and forum , of course it all boils down to brand loyalty.


Make no mistake the members new who was in the video and who produced the articles.

If you read the thread thoroughly you would have seen due to the personal attacks on the author,although not named the thread was locked by admin
.Remember he was a contributor to this fan club at one time.

A happy Tyos4 owner,

Gilbert.

[This message has been edited by gilbert (edited 10-28-2010).]

I agree with you Gilbert...Fran has points that should be respected, especially considering his age.

Seriously, it's not unusual for keyboard owners to defend their choice...Fran actually does it more than anyone here, yet it's okay for him to present a double standard...

I really am looking forward to the Tyros4, and putting it to the test...it sounds awesome...absolutely awesome.

Ian

Gilbert..that was my point..a Yamaha Tyros4 owner posted on a Yamaha club..and the reaction was predictable with a negative comment...

I didn't see any discussion about the possible problem..just retaliation against the poster...who seems to be respected by many Yamaha folks..

It sorta kills any effort to find out if there was a problem..or not..

Turning a head..or a cold shoulder doesn't resolve anything..

Ian,


You will not be dissapointed IT IS AWESOME
.

Gilbert.

So far, I've heard great reports...with the exception of the person named in this thread.

I know it's good when I hear the guys at Head Office raving about it, and a lot of them aren't even keyboardists (and hard to impress)!

I've experienced no poly issues with the Tyros3 I have here...I'm trying to recreate the alleged T4 problem, but it just doesn't happen.

Ian

Fran,

This is the post I really was referring to,written by a well known professional and teacher I also feel it is a very credible response regarding polyphony.You as a professional should know if this post is valid.


I think I did the typical, normal play polyphony usage in another thread. 128 notes to start.

Let's assume that the 3 RH voices you use are 2-layers each and you play a four note chord. So that's 3x4x2= 24. Then add a 4 note left hand chord with a 2-layer voice, that's another 8, making 32. That still leaves 96 voices for the accomp and multi pads.

Even allowing for some use of sustain, that still leaves some reserves. The note-robbing algorithm is a bit more complex than letting the oldest notes go first. It tries to let the least significant notes go. Most times, you won't even notice it working, if indeed it has to.

I did some playing during my review session using the style mentioned in the OP, and I found no such problems, but it's something I'll follow up on in part 2 of my review.


Fran I Hope this helps you understand the credibility cap I feel is prevalent in the aforementioned articles,Although this has to some degree been explained by Scott

Gilbert.



[This message has been edited by gilbert (edited 10-28-2010).]

Is it the same guy who has a really low opinion for those who use recorded audio backing tracks?

http://www.jazzhooves.com/2010/10/lazy-musicians/

Ian

Ian,
If it is,its a bit ripe for him to talk about credibility.

P.s it looks like the tyros4 does have reserve voice allocation

Gilbert.

[This message has been edited by gilbert (edited 10-28-2010).]

Well, it's only one person's opinion...and it seems to be one of the few against the more prevalent good impressions.

Yes, Yamaha Canada just informed me that the Tyros4 (and T3) have reserve voice allocation.

My palms are getting sweaty...

Ian

Should we start compiling the mob with pitch forks and such ALA "Ketron With hunt"

just had to

------------------
www.AudioworksCT.com

ok gang. I finally had a chance to test out & reproduce 'LIVE' (via Skype) the T4 polyphony issue with a good friend (in the UK) that owns a Tyros4.

While in A1 auto accomp mode, with split point set at F#2, I first had him select "Vocal Foxtrot" from the Ballroom Section, and Left Voice 'on' and assigned to piano, and RH voices 1, 2, and 3 all 'on' and assigned to different voices. Then he played a Bb7 chord in the LH, and then immediately after playing it, used the sustain pedal to keep it sounding, followed by playing both left and right hands together in the right section of the keyboard as follows: LH: D3-F3-G3-Bb3-D4 and RH: F4-G4-Bb4 (total 8 notes). When this was played there were no polyphony dropouts at all in either the style or the actual notes played on the keyboard. Only When 'one more' note (D5) was added to the RH chord to make a total of 9 notes played simultaneously, did a vocal dropout occur in the style. The moment the 9th note was taken out, the vocals in the style could be heard again.

I can only conclude that unless your playing style requires 9 notes played simultaneously in the RH section of the keyboard, this should not be a problem.


Additional note: It appears that only the Tyros4's new 'Vocal' voices were affected by this phenomenon, as no other voices within the style dropped out.


Scott

Scott Yee Entertainment

Great news Scott ....did you order one as of yet?

Scott..so that means Leigh was correct..

If the vocal sounds are similar to Roland's ..they may be 3 or 4 cross faded sounds...and a sustain pedal could easily pick up the velocity overlap..and cause a problem with polyphony...Most likely the newest added sounds that require 3 or 4 cross fades..may be the least priority reserve..Ian mentioned that the Tyros3 and 4 have this now...Maybe not quite as good as the Roland format..

Great news!!! He confirmed a problem...

That's wy the T3 did not do it..those vocals must have a lot of oscilators triggered?

Actually for what these TOTL arranger cost they shold all have 256 Poly anyways.

Lee S.

[This message has been edited by leeboy (edited 10-28-2010).]

Can this problem be rectified thru a software OS version upgrade? Or mainly just a Style predicament.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-28-2010).]

Hi Scott,

I'm sorry I missed your phone call...I was at a meeting...and thank you for your thorough coverage of the issue.

I know it won't be a problem for me, nor for 99% of the players, but, it is there nonetheless.

My humble apologies to Leigh.

It doesn't happen on the Tyros3, so it must be the new vocal patches eating up polyphony.

No doubt Yamaha are aware of the issue, but, if not, I can assure you they will after I finish this post.

Thanks again,

Ian

Hey Scott was this Craig_UK? If so , tell him I said Hi!

Nick

Yes, Fran, I believe you are correct...it could be the new vocal patches...until Yamaha confirms it, we'll just have to go with that idea.

Also, these voices, being SA and SA2 use a lot more of the tone generator than the scat voices on your G-70.

I'm curious to see if it happens on your G-70, if you follow the protocol that Scott laid out in his post.

Certainly it is a very extreme situation, but, it is there, nonetheless.

Ian

Nope, not him. It's another UK Yamaha buddy!

Posted from my iPad while watching game playoff 3. Go Giants!

Scott

or maybe The Wolf?

Nope . . . guess again

For one thing, most changes of sound within a voice are done by velocity cross-SWITCHES, not with cross-fades. Thus, all voices have the same polyphony (usually, just the one or two oscillators). Now, you start stacking stereo voices like crazy, then yes, even a 128 voice keyboard will choke... But I am inclined to think this is more due to some SA type logic rules, rather than a simple polyphony issue. For an entire PART to drop out just because one voice of polyphony is exceeded seems a bit strange... And because it IS those fancy vocal sounds, I think the issue relates to more than just the basic polyphony of the instrument.

Most of the issues of the Dynamic Allocation have been addressed, I think that when you use either layer sounds and or that have velocity switch in either the style or Right hand, I am not certain if it is the case that the Vocal Styles in question use it.

Note that not all the players have a "norm" on how to use it, I have also seen some mostly amateur players stacks 2 or 3 voices in the Right hand and using MOC (Melody on Chord) and to make things worse, play chord in the Right hand (mushhhhy)... most keyboards will choke.

In any case, in most of the arrangers forums, there are members that range from beginners and anywhere in between to professional players, and some MAY have bad playing habits. But if it is what makes them happy, more power to them.

One thing to say based on my own experience, among all the arrangers I had, considering the ones that have less polyphony like when I had my old Korg PA60 with only 62 notes hardly missed notes, and the "magic" is the Dynamic voice allocation processor that Korg use, is one of the fastest and best, perhaps, Yamaha needs to see how that works from Korg.
The current PA series has. PA2X&800 120notes polyphony, and the PA500 has 80...no problems here, even stacking up to 3 sounds plus the arranger, also considering that this board do not use any velocity switching or layer stacking sounds on the styles.

When I had my Ketron SD1, I had polyphony issues, since it had only 64, and even a single sound and a single note, where actually 3 notes...so, it was easy to chocked in you play a full chord + the arranger without layering sounds on the right hand, that was the reason I switch to a different brands.

Manuel

------------------
mdorantes

I was told, the vocal patches are velocity cross fades...that actually overlap..thus using up polyphony more than a Roland type velocity switch..It seems to make more sense to me..

When you Tyros4 owners play the vocal patches ..can you hear an overlap of the different tones?

Even so, losing an entire accompaniment PART, rather than just a note or so, I still think there's something about the SA nature of the sounds. This is the first arranger Yamaha have allowed SA sounds to be in the accompaniment section. Perhaps there are still some issues to be sorted out...?

But, bottom line is, you want to stack insane amounts of voices and play insane layers with Melody Intell on, you can choke just about anything.

The thing I find the most important isn't necessarily polyphony, but processor SPEED. The thing I noticed the MOST going from the G1000 to the G70 was that I could stack three stereo, VERY percussive sounds together, then play fast repeated chords by hand, and not hear the TRACE of 'flamming' amongst them. A HUGE improvement, and one that made for an incredible sense of being 'connected' to what you play, even on single note lines...

I wonder how many arrangers out there can pass this torture test (that you are actually more likely to do)..?

Try it... stack all THREE RH Parts in a layer, assign them to percussive stereo sounds (like piano, vibes and marimba), then play rapid four note chords. Hear it getting sloppy at all?

I'll give it a try on the PA2 tonight.
Working at a client right now.
Programming in C code ...Fun :-(
LeeS.

you have mail

Quoting Diki

"Try it... stack all THREE RH Parts in a layer, assign them to percussive stereo sounds (like piano, vibes and marimba), then play rapid four note chords. Hear it getting sloppy at all?"

Tried on Ty4.
Vibes, marimaba and various pianos including SA, non SA, cocktail and octave types. 4&5 note chords as quick as manually possible.
Sometimes with sustain, sometimes with auto harmony (block)on the piano.
Couldn't hear any glitches or sloppiness myself - other than my playing

There were known problems with a supplementary premium vocal pack supplied for Ty3. Some people found with a couple of the voices, if they used auto harmony some of the voice notes would become unreliable. (I noted this too.) This was put down to processor speed limitation. It no longer happens on Ty4 with this pack.
One of the key things Yamaha say they did was to use a much faster processor on Ty4 than Ty3.

john