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#293647 - 09/18/10 03:35 PM Re: Audya owners what are your Impressions of the New Tyros 4 ?...
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10597
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Me, I think they ALL suck! The day I hear an arranger that actually sounds like (and behaves like) REAL musicians will be the first! I am an equal opportunity critic


Poor Diki...playing an arranger that SUCKS must be tough.

Fran probably doesn't agree with your opinion of the G-70...he doesn't think it sucks...he thinks it's "the best."

I love my PSR-S910, and no doubt I will feel the same way about the Tyros4 if I get it.

Arrangers aren't perfect, but they have come a long way since the early days when having eight or sixteen styles and ten or twelve sounds was thought to be pretty advanced.

Nowadays, an arranger is one of the handiest and most innovative musical tools/instruments being made, in my opinion.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#293648 - 09/18/10 06:12 PM Re: Audya owners what are your Impressions of the New Tyros 4 ?...
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
The T4 market and the Audya are two completely different markets.

The T4 are for those home players who just want something that they can focus on the old days and sound like a recording of a song they use to hear on the radio.
Their playing is of little concern to them. They are more concerned with the content of the keyboard and what the keyboard can do for them Out of the box.
That is why the T4 sounds the way it does.
The T4 having a CD sound is not bad and it sounds good to the market it is for.

Now the Audya is for a different market. The Audya is for the player who wants to go on stage and sound like a band. That is why on the style parts for Audya, it is not too busy. The player is trying to impress upon the listener that it is me alone as a keyboard player and I can sound as good as a regular 4/5 member band.
That is why bass and drums are so important to Audya users.
The Audya gives the keyboard player more room to show his skill as a keyboard player and not his skill as a Karaoke DJ.

and, I have to agree with Diki when he says that all arrangers suck.
But I think they all suck OOTB. However, the beauty of an arranger is that it has the tools for the user to make it not suck and for the user to sound good.
The strength of an arranger is the features and what you can do for it not what it can do for you.
Style creation and style modification are the real treasures of the arranger.
The ability to create a style or modify a style to your playing style is what makes or breaks an arranger player.
If you have a really good sounding style with great playing in the style, and you are a low to medium player, the outcome is most likely going to be bad. Likewise, if you are a really good player and the style is not as good as you or just does not have your style, then you will get a bad overall performance.
It is only when you either create your own style of modify a factory style can you make the arranger shine.
I almost never use a factory style. I either create my own style or modify and existing style. And, that is why I could use the Motif XS as an arranger.
JMO



------------------
I have shortened my ID to TTG

[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 09-18-2010).]
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TTG

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#293649 - 09/18/10 06:29 PM Re: Audya owners what are your Impressions of the New Tyros 4 ?...
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10597
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Excellent post, Genny, you make some great points.

I never use the factory styles for my own music...I always edit styles in order to put my own stamp on my tunes.

I only use factory styles for my demos, but I show clients how to edit/assemble their own styles at my clinics.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#293650 - 09/18/10 06:51 PM Re: Audya owners what are your Impressions of the New Tyros 4 ?...
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 41915
Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
Nowadays, an arranger is one of the handiest and most innovative musical tools/instruments being made, in my opinion.

Ian


Finally someone makes sense

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#293651 - 09/18/10 11:10 PM Re: Audya owners what are your Impressions of the New Tyros 4 ?...
Mr. G Offline
Member

Registered: 07/14/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Monroe, Mi. USA
I am not a product loyal type person and so if a keyboard has the goods then it would be a worthy contender, but I must say that out of the 50 demo's not a single one did anything for me. In fact if the other styles are anything like these fifty I don't see how anyone could get anything out of this board. If you like oohs and aah's I guess you could like it. From what I heard I would prefer my old psr-9000 to the tyros 4. The Tyros is not in the same league with Audya. Don't get me wrong, it's right hand sounds are darn good but the style demos to me just plain stink IMO of course. I had a Tyros and it just seems like Yamaha is missing the boat of what a one man band is all about. A band is basically, Guitar, Bass, Drums and Piano or organ , your basic rythm section. Sitting behind a tyros the audiance would think you are sitting there playing CD's. Not meant to offend but that board needs to go back to the drawing board.
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Mr. G ,OASYS , KRONOS ,Jupiter 80 , AUDYA 5, Midas Venice ,Danley Labs sm-60f's ,Danley TH mini subs, QSC KW 122's,118 sub , Senhieser and Heil , Audix VX-10 , TC_Helicon ,ZOOM 9200, Lexicon ,Alesis ,AKG solid tube ,AB international Power Sub3600

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#293652 - 09/19/10 12:14 AM Re: Audya owners what are your Impressions of the New Tyros 4 ?...
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
When I say that arrangers suck, and don't come close to a real band, I am afraid I am referring to thei PLAYING, not the styles they play, or even their sounds, to a large degree.

Completely idiomatic playing on even a pretty naff sound still sounds great, and can fool many people. But an amazing sound, played by a robot, still sounds horrible, IMO. And arrangers still have a VERY long way to go before they play voicings, and, more especially, the changes BETWEEN voicings anything NEAR what real players do.

It drives me crazy to listen to ANY of them, good, bad and ugly, when they start block voicing chord changes, jumping lines around, and completely ignoring voice leading. Then the same six or fewer fills trying to make sixteen possible transitions (only three in Korg's case, often just TWO )...

It's not about whether the style is programmed well in the first place... The best of them still have a complete inability to join together chords and musical passages the way that real players do, most of them sound IDENTICAL whether you are playing your RH hard or soft (or only make the barest change of volume or velocity).

But, rather than talk about things like this, we disappear up our own backsides arguing SOUND, while the manufacturers ignore some pretty obvious things they could do to make these MUSICAL things happen.

Me, I'd rather have sixteen fills per style (what you need for every possible Var to Var combination) than any NUMBER of SA sounds. I'd rather have a style engine that could have a bassline play in root, but look at the chord inversion you are actually PLAYING to guide its' decisions about what inversion to play SOME of the arranger Parts in than any number of mp3 playback features, or karaoke center cancel audio bullsh*t...

I'd rather see a half dozen REALLY detailed drumkits, with a dozen or more velocity cross-switches than thirty drum kits with virtually NO vel X-switches. I'd like to see drum sections that got more or less complex with the 'inside' stuff depending on how fast YOU are playing. I'd like to see simple, easy to use controls for easily dropping a full arrangement down to just bass and drums, then small combo, then full ensemble...

And you know what? SOME of these features USED to be on some older arrangers. But they got dropped, because so much emphasis is placed on features for the One Finger crowd and karaoke wannabes, stuff that is subtle, that only a discerning ear can hear gets lost in the noise...

It's sad. The arranger has a LOT more potential than is currently being shown. But few of us seem to be even SLIGHTLY interested in making it more realistic by behavioral OS improvements, preferring realistic SOUNDS being played unrealistically.

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#293653 - 09/19/10 01:22 AM Re: Audya owners what are your Impressions of the New Tyros 4 ?...
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10597
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:

But, rather than talk about things like this, we disappear up our own backsides arguing SOUND, while the manufacturers ignore some pretty obvious things they could do to make these MUSICAL things happen.



I'm looking forward to your return from that disappearing act...well, not quite, considering where you chose to disappear.

Still, that's quite a trick.

Buy something with SA/SA2 voices, and it will really help with your instrument emulation...of course, you're never going to entirely fool someone who plays that particular instrument, but with a disappearing act like you've got going, instrument emulation wouldn't be nearly as spectacular.

Remember to remove your hat.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#293654 - 09/20/10 06:54 AM Re: Audya owners what are your Impressions of the New Tyros 4 ?...
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
You got anything USEFUL to say, or is it going to be jibe, jab and dig from now on, Ian..? Give it a rest, son...

Think of it this way.... The guitar SOUNDS in most arrangers weren't that bad, but the PLAYING of those sounds (in the style) sucked, until we started to get proper Guitar Modes on Korg's, better guitar NTT's on Yamaha's, Mega Voices with fancy programming in them, and stuff like that. Realism didn't come from the SOUND, but from clever programming to make how they were PLAYED more like a real guitarist.

I believe that there are many other areas in an arranger's OS that could benefit from the same emphasis on correct PLAYING as opposed to just good sounds. SA voices in styles is a perfect example. Even Yamaha see the point of this (as opposed to you, Ian!) and recognize that realism comes from how a voice is PLAYED, rather than just its' sound alone.

When a large part of what the audience hears is the accompaniment, and we just play lead sounds with the one hand while the left is merely inputting chord information, then how those arranger Parts PLAY their parts is pretty critical, IMO. Current arrangers, even the best of them, IMO, have a LONG way to go before they can hold a candle to a good band...

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#293655 - 09/20/10 07:13 AM Re: Audya owners what are your Impressions of the New Tyros 4 ?...
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10597
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Just spend more time practicing with your arranger Diki, and you'll get a better grip on emulating sounds...and SA/SA2 would really benefit your attempts, but, unfortunately, Roland doesn't offer anything like it...too bad.

DJ's don't sound like a "live band" either, but they've been steadily carving out a market for themselves quite nicely.

You blow hot and cold with your opinions on arrangers...one day they are the greatest thing, the next, "they all SUCK".

Make up your mind.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#293656 - 09/21/10 02:37 PM Re: Audya owners what are your Impressions of the New Tyros 4 ?...
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
They are the greatest thing that sucks...

(well, OK, the SECOND greatest thing! )

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