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#293082 - 09/17/10 02:35 AM Re: Just felt like playing some blues
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 39588
Loc: NJ
Like I said ...probably Impossible..

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#293083 - 09/17/10 02:50 AM Re: Just felt like playing some blues
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10592
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
Like I said ...probably Impossible..


Both would have been more realistic if they'd used SA sounds.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#293084 - 09/17/10 03:11 AM Re: Just felt like playing some blues
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Impossible, Donny? You asked for an example, there it is. What is your issue with it?

Or do you simply mean impossible for you to do it?

If you use sequences and mp3's (we all know you do), I'm kind of wondering what you are doing that makes using the bender too much of an imposition... Once that chicken hat is on, you shouldn't have to HOLD it there, should you?

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#293085 - 09/17/10 03:49 AM Re: Just felt like playing some blues
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10592
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:

Quite a while back I posted a live version of 'How Sweet It Is (to be loved by you)' at Roland-arranger.com that has a played sax solo http://www.roland-arranger.com/smf/index.php?topic=845.0 (sax solo is at about 2:00 in). It's not my BEST work (just a live take) but maybe you get the gist from it...



Great job, Diki...I've heard this example before, and it's a fine example of using subtle bends and scoops.

You'd sound even better with Yamaha's SA/SA2 sounds.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#293086 - 09/17/10 04:09 AM Re: Just felt like playing some blues
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 5645
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Thanks Bebop. 'preciate it.

Ian - the SA sax is (IMO) undeniably the best sax sound that I have available, but like Diki, you're assuming that realism is the primary thing here....it's not. It's the 'feel' of the song that's important to me, and also what sound (which sax patch, in this case) best fits the mood of the tune. For ME, FOR THIS TUNE, it was the breathy, over-reverbed, Korg sax. Just a matter of personal preference. Same with guitar. I prefer the 'jazz guitar' patch from the Tyros II for comping AND soloing. I'm kind of lazy, so once I find something I like, I tend to stay there.

Diki, the techniques you outlined sound great, and I will practice and try to phase them into my playing technique when soloing a sax patch. I think the harder problem is trying to THINK like a sax player. Then, I think the phrasing, etc. would come more natural. Truth is, when I solo, I'm usually thinking more like a SINGER. I guess, down in my heart, I don't really think a keyboard emulation of another instrument is going to fool anybody, so you may as well just go ahead and play your licks. DonM comes as close as anybody with his 'guitar' licks, and I'm sure it's due in large part, to the fact that he also plays guitar.

Using a drum machine, or the drum section of an arranger keyboard in my case, gives you a pretty static, semi-mechanical, background to work with, so you need to use the other instruments to supply the feel and dynamics normally supplied by the drummer........in other words, draw attention away from the fact that a machine is supplying that dead-on (and therefore unnatural) rhythm. Mostly, I just like to sit down and play. I guess I'm more invested in the song than the production, although I realize that both are important. If you listen to Ben Webster, Stan Getz, Lester Young, Grover Washington, Kenny G, King Curtis (remember him?), Charley Parker, you will soon realize that there is no 'classic' sax sound or style of playing. Uniqueness is the key, 'soul' is what is important (whatever the genre'). So I WILL be trying out those techniques and I WILL be trying to figure out how to utilize that great SA sax, but in the meantime.......... I'm happy with someone listening to it and 'wanting a drink of hard liquor', 'cause that's the way you're supposed to feel when 'yo' baby done left you' .


chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#293087 - 09/17/10 04:14 AM Re: Just felt like playing some blues
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
I've messed around quite a bit with the SA sax voices in the MoXS... to be honest, I'm not that convinced. Making them monophonic kind of limits your options (sometimes you WANT to go divisi), and, try as I might, I couldn't get even close to the famous SA sax demo. That thing was sequenced and massaged to hell and back, not live play in the slightest, and I've heard little from any live demo that elevated it far beyond what I can do with normal triggering technology.

It certainly helps those that have no decent sax chops at all (Yamaha's target market, for sure!), but it wasn't the eye-opener I had hoped it would be.

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#293088 - 09/17/10 04:32 AM Re: Just felt like playing some blues
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Chas, the bar for 'thinking' like a GREAT sax player is so high, I don't even try! They are the gods of music, IMO, for all I would LIKE it to be piano players!

But, when a sax player plays the blues, he's going to scoop, he's going to bend, he's going to moan! And NOBODY ever moaned at a constant pitch!

You can't even play a blues scale correctly on a keyboard without using a pitch bend lever... You can SING one, but an equal tempered keyboard can't play it. The thirds, the sevenths, they aren't Western... They are flattened a bit (or a lot!) and that's what makes it the blues. The flattened passing notes, the scooped notes... all define the blues.

We all know and cringe whenever we hear someone with a classic background TRYING to play the blues or jazz. And playing a sax sound on straight notes, no bend lever has exactly the same effect. For me, it's fingernails on a chalkboard! If I can't use the bend lever (say I'm comping with the LH) I NEVER play a sax lead. Better to miss it altogether than screw it up, IMO. It's not about FOOLING anyone that they are hearing a sax. Only a fool would be fooled! But, without that pitch indeterminacy, it's not a soulful sound, IMO. I'd rather use something that is SUPPOSED to be pitch stable (vibes, for instance) than a one hand sax, any day...

BTW, I'm coming up to Atlanta end of this month for Petit Le Mans at Road Atlanta. Hopefully, we can meet and get to see one another while I'm in the neighborhood!

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#293089 - 09/17/10 04:33 AM Re: Just felt like playing some blues
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10592
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:

It certainly helps those that have no decent sax chops at all (Yamaha's target market, for sure!), but it wasn't the eye-opener I had hoped it would be.


Yes, and it really benefits those that have decent sax chops...you need more time to explore SA and SA2, especially the latter, and especially on a Tyros3 or T4...the Mo XS is pretty good, but not a patch on the Tyros sound.

Yamaha's SA/SA2 voices would make a good player like yourself, sound even better.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#293090 - 09/17/10 04:51 AM Re: Just felt like playing some blues
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
The price for a marginal improvement in solo sax sound is too high for me, Ian... gain a better sax, lose the ability to play piano parts well. For all my love of emulating the horn, I am still a pianist (or at least keyboard player) first and foremost. If I can't play a real piano part on it, I can't use it on a gig, plain and simple.

Anyway, I don't trust any company that thinks the better the pianist, the worse the arranger they play on should be..! I prefer to use instruments by a company that doesn't PENALIZE you for liking the piano

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#293091 - 09/17/10 05:00 AM Re: Just felt like playing some blues
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 5645
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
The thirds, the sevenths, they aren't Western... They are flattened a bit (or a lot!) and that's what makes it the blues.


All the sh-- that has happened to you in your life, floating through your head while you're playing.......THAT'S what makes it the blues.

On the Atlanta thing, if you're staying overnight (or multible nights), by all means stay with us. We have tons of room and you'll be well fed. All it'll cost you is some advice and recommendations on my studio . Plus, we get to talk about Ian . Seriously, think about it. Shoot me an email and we'll discuss. It would be great if Russ were around that weekend but he's usually too busy making money (and then giving it away ).

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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