[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 06-21-2010).]

Fran is DA MAN!!!!

Wow! A picture of Fran's butt. You really need to tone down your lipstick, Donny.



chas

'Job'? Just starting a midifile?

Roel,..What do you have against midifiles? Fran does a great job on stage.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 06-20-2010).]

As what? A MC? Is there anything inherently wrong with a midi file? No, not for the one that created it. It's only when you use one (commercially prepared midi file) to present yourself as a musician that I have a problem with it. If you want to use one in a club (while pretending to play, thereby perpetrating a fraud on your audience), fine, but don't post one as an example of 'your work' to a bunch of guys (like here on SZ) that know better. Then it just becomes a joke.

Whether anyone wants to admit it or not (not likely, since this is an 'arranger' forum), just playing an arranger in style mode is something of a 'moral' compromise, even though there is at least SOME skill involved. If you need something to play during the breaks, an mp3 is probably a better choice, so I can't think of an instance where a midifile (used in this manner) would be justified. The one exception might be the OMB that steps away from the keyboard, mike in hand, and sings, with no implication that he is playing his/her accompaniment. As far as the audience knows, he/she could be singing to a karaoke track, which, in effect, he is doing. No problem there. Why? No fraud.

Maybe it's just me, and I'm being overly self-righteous, but whenever someone presents something that is obviously not their work but implying that it is, I find it, at the very least, annoying. Same goes for those that champion these people. JMO, of course.

chas

Sometimes there is a lot of skill involved when playing in style mode, although I suppose that depends on the player and the type of music.

What way of playing an arranger would you call skillful? Are some arranger players more skillful than others, Why?

The inherent design of the instrument is for style play, and/or playing over a MIDI file...and of course, recording/multi-tracking.

There are some pieces that I play, in style mode, that I would term "difficult" for any type of keyboard player (pianist, organist, synthesist) to play on an arranger.

Also, there are some midi files that would challenge a player, even as good as you, if you took out the keyboard parts and played them yourself.

I don't believe that your blanket description of arranger players, which infers that they make a "moral" compromise or require at least "some" skill(implying a small amount) applies in all cases...wouldn't you agree?

Ian

PS...I agree with your last statement that "pretending" to play over a SMF, especially one not of your own making is annoying...in fact, I think it's awful.

You make some good points, Ian. I probably shouldn't have used the word "moral", but it IS somewhat of a compromise since at least a part of the total sound is generated by a computer. This all assumes 'style mode' play, of course.

As to 'skill level', I didn't mean to imply that anyone who plays an arranger automatically has a lower skill level than those that play other types of keyboards. That's ridiculous. Rory plays a S910. YOU play an arranger. Diki plays an arranger. Joe Ayala (sp) plays an arranger. All of you are rather formidable pianist/Keyboard players who could certainly hold your own without the assistance of an arranger. IOW, there are more reasons to play an arranger than because you're a lousy 'conventional' keyboard player. So my intent was not to imply a sub-par skill level JUST because you play an arranger. Heck, Russ plays an arranger (occasionally) and you can't get any more 'purist' than he is .

As to you other question, "What way of playing arranger would you call skillful?", I started to say 'full piano mode' in conjunction with 'style play', but upon reflection, I'm going to say, ANY WAY YOU APPROACH IT THAT SOUNDS GOOD AND HAS BEEN MADE UNIQUE BY YOUR REALTIME, PRIMARILY KEYBOARD, INPUT. There is obviously also a good deal of skill in setting up registrations, patches, pads, etc., that will enhance a particular performance, but I think we are talking about the performance itself, here.

This is another one of those topics that gets rehashed every so often, but in the end, I think we're talking about musical honesty, here. At least that's what I'M talking about.

chas

Fran posts a great Video of one his shows years ago and everyone is knocking it...why?
So Chas are you saying Fran is a faker in this video? or what? Again lets not forget Styles are just small midi files also....
I guess it Purists time all over again.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 06-21-2010).]

Are YOU saying that that's him playing that background accompaniment?

chas

It's no surprise, but I have to support the position Chas has here. Of course, my position is explained by a good deal of personal preference and not necessarily meant to imply that my way of doing things is superior. But, it is right for me.

And, as always, there's an element of entertainer vs. musician. I would never do what Fran is doing in the video previously posted, but that is my preference...no MP-3's...no laptops...no sequences...ever.

Right now, I'm using an arranger, so my position as a "purist" is pretty fragile.

I guess on one end, there are those who have no problem with using anything they have available to entertain, vs. those who wouldn't touch even a transposer. Most of us, including me, are somewhere in the middle.

I guess the right choice is whatever you can justify to yourself, and what produces the results you want.

Donny believes that using anything, including a chicken hat is OK. I wouldn't be caught dead in one. My choice is right for me, and his is right for him. We both get paid for what we do.

And Fran doesn't think there's anything wrong with using completely sequenced material or he wouldn't have posted the clip.

This issue is indicative of a major divide here that will never go away or be resolved.

Let's each stick to our convictions, conduct ourselves in a manor that is consistent with those convictions and respect the other persons right to do it another way.

We don't have to like it or agree with it.
And, if I don't have something complimentary to say, I'll generally choose to say nothing at all.


R.



[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 06-21-2010).]

I posted the video clip....because I wanted to look back and have a laugh.....I sent the clip to my girls....knowing they would get a kick out of it...They never seen the clip before...

As for me playing with SMF's or not...means nothing...and I feel sorry if that is all you guys get out old videos...
Actually , I did not play (perform with SMF's)..until this time period (1993)..That means I played as a "purist" the previous 37 years...

Only a couple of you guys know what I do or don't do...

But one thing you can count on..."I still love my job"....

PS: I must do something right....I could work ..doing what I do ..7 days a week....I choose not to...

My bet...I think most of you would "love my job"...

I record in one form or another 95 percent of our "backing tracks" (band)...Only use arranger play for usually a "guest singer"..

When I play solo and usually duo...I play mostly SMF's...and always "play " over them..I rely on the chord read of the G70 for this purpose..

I do not use MP3 for my solo work...the SMF's allow me to use lyrics....like another stated..I can remember thousands of songs..but a handful of lyrics...

Few if any folks here have enjoyed what I have over the decades of performing....and do not owe anyone an explanation...but here it is anyway....

BTW: Just in Time is considered to be the best "band" in the South Jersey shore....
Thankfully ..our fan base are not "purists"..

I can't count myself as a "purist", Fran, nor do I frown on anyone playing over SMF...it's when someone fakes it, or pretends to play, over a midi file that disappoints me.

I love playing over styles...always will, and, like you, this kind of work can't be bettered, in my opinion.

The arranger is just another tool for us keyboard players to use...it is every bit as legit , in my opinion, as a Hammond, a piano, a synth or a workstation.

I enjoyed the video,...it's nice to have these kind of keepsakes, and areal treat to look back on the old days.

Ian

Look, I wasn't responding to Fran's video as much as I was to DONNY'S response to Roel (kla4). If Fran thinks that what they do is being a band, then more power to him. In my limited experience, a band consists of a group of musicians that play together.

chas

Chas I feel sorry for guys like you...enjoy yourself ....I'll stick with Fran anyday of the week.

Nope Chas...not a band as we know....but the reference of the audiences address it as such...I did the band thing (real band ..5 pieces).for my first 20 years...

So what should we call ourselves...2 keyboardist and 3 vocalists..

I can see the Marquee now...Now appearing Wed-Sun....the sequenced act.."Just in Time"...

BTW: There will not be a high profile show...you will see at any Casino or Large venue..that is not sequenced or using backing tracks....NONE!!!!
You will find those folks in the audience..

Chas, don't worry, I don't get offended from my pals here......My pals don't pay my bills.....but you can buy me breakfast..

Fran, I'd buy you breakfast anytime. However, if your buddy joins us, he has to pay for his own . Look, you're right. I know for a fact that most of the casino acts ARE sequenced, but they don't have eight guys back there pretending to be an eight piece band. The audience KNOWS that the music is 'canned'. I think there is a difference. Hey, you guys are successful and have been for a long time, and that's the bottom line. Different strokes for different genre's and venues. Miles and Coltrane would go over like a lead balloon in a NH. Monk would probably get beaten to death with crutches, walkers and bedpans. You gotta give the audience what they want....or at least make 'em THINK they're getting what they want .

BTW, got any old videos of Donny doing the Electric Slide?......in his chicken hat.



chas

PS: Tell Benny I want some of my money back.

And a singer is NOT a musician??? Seems you got one part of your comment right..."limited experience"

The key word here, guys, is SHOW! There are a few of us in the trenches who gladly sacrifice a lot (money, number of gigs, etc.) for the luxury of coming up with a medley-mid tune...or a key change...or working with a like-minded player, taking a performance in an entirely different direction. A few of us appreciate the response we get from people with a vast knowledge of music...structure...history, etc...people who listen to the music and understand what they're hearing...just wish they would drink more and spend more money and tip better)! LOL.

We don't do "SHOWS". And, we pay the price.
I sat in awe watching Victor Wooten give a 45 minute clinic at NAMM Saturday....all by himself. Find Rory's outstanding clip of Autumn Leaves....all by himself. Look at any Chick Corea clip. There are lots of others, including major national acts...Diana Krall, for example, using no backing tracks whatsoever.

A year ago or so, a nationally famous keyboard player/singer and one of my all-time favorites came to the club I played and asked to sit in. What an honor! He used my suitcase turned 90 degrees and the guy played for two complete sets (I was on B-3 at my regular "jazz night"...he was backing ME!). He is a famous singer, but, this night, we simply traded licks. He told me that he does about 200 "shows" a year that all last exactly the same number of minutes...the exact same number of tunes, played exactly the same way in the same sequence-because he was using...you guessed it: SEQUENCES!. He really enjoyed the freedom he used to enjoy before everything was about supporting his road crew, musicians and new recorded materials.

He went back on the road making millions, and I'm still out there in the trenches, pretty convinced I am the one who made the right choice.

Chas and I wouldn't have it any other way!


Russ

(P.S.-I'm a "sell-out" to a degree, supplementing my meager "gig" bread )(like that use of terms, guys?) with compensation for film scores/production in the healthy mid-six figure range. I'd like to just play what I'd like, but too used to the "fat cat" way of life-OH, WHOA IS ME! Take a look at Chas' two wheeled "toys" and read between the lines about his career in the airline industry and the C-1 and other toys he has. We've done fairly well, but had to make some real sacrifices, including relying on activities other than music for a good part of our living).

("Sorry, purists", but where is it written that you really have to "suffer" for your art?-"BURP-LOL!).

(Each of us does things OUR WAY...we do what works for us...a combination of what we want to do and what we have to to do).

(It's that balance that is so hard to get exactly right).

(Good luck to all finding that balance point, wherever it is!).


Russ

I actually viewed THREE musicians on that video clip.

When keyboard players take out all keyboard parts, and PLAY them all themselves, and just has the midi/mp3/style providing the rhythm section and maybe some guitar/strings/brass for "interest", then that player is doing NO LESS than a keyboard player playing with a live drummer, bass player or guitarist!!!

Actually in a lot of cases, I would say they do MORE, and require a higher skillset to achieve it.



[This message has been edited by miden (edited 06-21-2010).]

Unfortunately,you are not ging to see many 8 piece bands in the casino lounges or shore venues ... but I have seen as many as 5 - 6 piece groups using back-up tracks ...
Those audiences want the music to sound like the original recording, hence 'dance clubs' only using DJs ... I've often said that the days of a band doing a 'pop' tune in their own style are looong gone ...
I have no issue with musicians enhancing their sound with backing tracks as long as they are not 'faking' a performace ...
As for the 'purists', I hope you 'keep on keepin' on' ... yours is a different audience from MOST of the arranger players on this board ... I, for one, would really dislike seeing that music/performance die ...

On chas' point about Miles, etc. ... I was attending an insurance agents convention one year and was excited by the fact that Dizzy was going to perform at the formal dinner ... Well, after dinner, Diz and his group took the stage and started playing ... the drone of voices in the room got louder and louder, to the point that after about 4 tunes Diz took the mic and said "apparently you folks would prefer to listen to each other, so GOODNIGHT", and they walked off the stage ... I was embarassed for the inconsiderate behavior of the people in the room ... After a while, my wife and I were out in the lobby and the fellow who booked Diz (who I knew pretty well) came walking out with Diz and we were introduced to him ... I apologized for what happened inside and he just shrugged and said something to the affect that his music isn't for everyone ... A class act ...
t.

Not when it comes to recognizing jerks. I can trade barbs with Fran all day and at the end of the day we walk away laughing. But somehow, you just seem to take rubbing people the wrong way to a new level. From some of the posts I've read in the past, I don't think I'm the only one who feels this way, either. I don't know if it's WHAT you say or just the attitude that comes along with it, either way, I'm guessing your BFF list is very, VERY short. Go to charm school.

chas

Reading the above posts...reminds me..that "success" is enjoying what you do...I don't care if it's your "day" job or "moonlighting"...If you aren't happy...why even do it...

I can say this..I have never worked a job ...including my income producing day job...that wasn't something I wanted to do..Maybe that is why excluding a couple winter time day jobs..I have always worked for my self (and Uncle Sam)..

Real joy, is playing music because you want to....not because you have to....

The worst partner(s), I can think of on stage is the one that needs to perform for a living....

Performing is a mentality...you have to love being there...no matter how you do it...just do it to enjoy yourself...

Pompous, arrogant pricks like you are a "dime a dozen"...

Sanctimonious, self-righteous and so full of yourself and your own opinions....

I doubt if Fran took your comments as "lightly" as you would like to think. Same goes for the others you have made your prejudiced "judgements" on.

Yet when some of these come back at you, you go running to mama, crying "foul".....Perhaps the charm school is a path you need to travel, and quickly too!!

In Captain Russ's terms I fall into the entertainer category more than the purist musician category. 90% of what I play is with styles on my Yammie. But I am not above using an occasional midi file or becoming a DJ relying on MP3s when it comes to genres I don't play live.

A successful gig for me is one where I show up, and audience shows up, I play, no one gets hurt,the check clears and I get re-booked.

Eddie

Eddie, I think you're right!

R.

+1, totally agree.

The only thing I would add is that in my case the backing track/styles to solo instrumental ratio is about 65%

Dennis

Thanks. A real show of class. Same as you've always exhibited, so no suprise there. Any more profane invectives you'd like to get off your chest?

chas

I think the point Chas was trying to make, and me too, is that it's rather a bit much to have someone play a SMF and then pretend to play along with it.

Not saying Fran does it...it appears he actually plays over midi files, but it does give arranger players a bad rap when someone does it and it is obvious they are faking it.

I remember someone posted a video, some time ago, of one of SZ's members (who's not around any more) doing that very thing.

Pretty dismal if one needs to resort to that kind of fakery, and that's not being an "entertainer" in my opinion...just a big phony.

Ian

Yes I agree with you 100% on this Ian. You also wrote it very well

Dennis

Hi Fran, I'm sorry I didn't see the video but I've seen pictures of you and the 2 babes you are forced to work with. Poor baby. I support you in all you do no matter how you do it.

All the best,

Joe