Demo of the intelligent arpeggiator.
http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/ContentDetail/ModelSeriesDetail.html?CNTID=5122655

posted 06-11-2010 02:05 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Dnj:
Ok I'll be watching for it ....just curios on its features and sound.
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There's a bit of a demo here...it's about the arpeggiator.
http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/ContentDetail/ModelSeriesDetail.html?CNTID=5122655&CTID=205900

I'm sure we'll see more stuff in the very near future.

Ian

So, I guess an arpeggiator is what defines a 'piano product' as well?

Or does that make it a synth product? Whatever it is, don't for one MINUTE call it an 'arranger', or Ian's world will collapse..

A 76 note arranger from Yamaha? Pack the kids, honey... it's time to head for the hills!

Diki, you can call it any thing your little heart desires.

If it will help you cope, you can call it an arranger...I don't mind, and I'm sure Yamaha doesn't mind either.

Yamaha calls it a digital piano, and/or a piano with arranger features, and that's what I'll call it when demoing.

I don't think it will be any serious competition for your old G-70.

Now, if this product had another wheel, and the guts of the S910, it would be quite the piano based arranger (or whatever you want to call it)...betcha it wouldn't be much heavier than an S910.

How unfortunate that Yamaha's market research shows very little demand for a 76 note MOTL/TOTL arranger, but if that should change, it appears they do have the components available.

Ian

That's what has been so frustrating, Ian... I am definitely one of the apparently non-existent market research (I certainly wasn't asked! Who DID they ask? - yep, existing Yamaha 61 customers ) said does not exist, with what seems like quite a decent sized portion of this forum who would be VERY interested in a 76 S910.

All Yamaha need is a 76 note keybed (MoXS7 or NP-30 if you HAVE to!) and a bit bigger case. And that's IT... Not exactly the cost a totally new product (like the NP-V80 was) would cost them. Yamaha can afford to do a small production run, design the thing around the internal componentry they already have in the S910, and test market it. Not claim market research that has apparently missed its' potential market completely.

Come on, show of hands... all you members using 76 note arrangers out there. Who of you got asked ANYTHING by Yamaha Market Research?

You ask enough blind people whether they need a red marker or not, pretty soon, you stop making red markers! Got to ask a sighted person from time to time... Me, if I were running Yamaha's market research, I would be asking EVERYONE with a 76 if Yamaha made one, would they buy it...

Then I would take a look at how little it would cost to make a 76 note case for an S910, compared to dominating in the one market Yamaha haven't even TRIED to compete in. Let's face it, Ian... if you think that the S910 is the best arranger in a 61, wouldn't it be the best arranger in a 76, too? Sure, you wouldn't sell as many as the 61. But since it would cost so little extra to produce, you wouldn't NEED to.

Frustrating, and now doubly so, as Yamaha produce a 76 arranger at the BOTL, proving that they DO think a 76 arranger will sell. I believe that the NP-V80 is no less a niche product than a 76 S910... Time for Yamaha to make yet ANOTHER step forward.

Yamaha doesnt need a diki to tell themn what to do ...they have a very adequate R&D dept that knows excactly what they are doing regarding the design and marketing of their Musical keyboard division products worldwide I assure you.....even if you dont think so. They are years ahead of what you make think.

It only proves that Yamaha considers that there is a healthy demand for a 76-note lightweight "piano based" arranger in the lower priced segment...nothing more.

It would be interesting to know just how well Korg's PA2XPro sold...that would indicate the condition of the 76-note higher end arranger market.

Ian

This 61/76 thingy is such an unanswerable question but still we keep rehashing it, always with the same outcome; nobody giving an inch and each side just resting up, waiting for the next (very predictable) round. Here's my take on it.

The only reason Yamaha would make a 76 key Tyros x/S9xx would be to snag some of the market share currently held by Roland, Korg, and Ketron. But, except for Diki , does anyone actually believe that any current owners of an Audya or PA2X (Roland HAS no market share in the MOTL/TOTL arranger market) would turn in their instruments for a 76 key Tyros 3/S910? I don't think so. Why? Because the size of the keybed is only ONE of the factors in determining which ARRANGER keyboard to buy. Much larger factors are, the styles, the soundset, and the OS. Those that like the Audya for it's great?? Latin, Country, and ethnic styles and it's live drums and guitars OR the Korg for it's superior Funk, Rap, Jazz, and R&B styles, are NOT going to buy a Yamaha, no matter HOW MANY keys you give it. The exceptions to this would be so negligible as to not make it worthwhile for Yamaha to even bother. I think Yamaha realizes this and so therefore, I have to painfully side with one of my two friends on this one: the WINNER (for the moment ), IAN .

chas

The only reason this topic goes around in circles with no seeming end to it, is that some people refuse to believe Yamaha has legitimate reasons not to make a 76 note mid-range or top-of-the-line arranger.

Even when some people were told by a well respected Yamaha person, Steve Deming, that the reason was that the demand was not big enough, they refused to believe it.

Clearly, the bottom line is that Yamaha will not make a 76 note mid or top range arranger until the company decides it's a workable proposition, which obviously, up to now, they have not.

Ian

76/88 keys is geared toward PIANO Players who play full mode style....most I would assume require a more "Piano feel" key-bed not a lightweight arranger 61 organ type key-bed.......KORG years ago addressed this with their T1, T2, T3 line of keyboards to give everyone a chance to choose how many & what feel they wanted, obviously that was a dud because they are no longer made.....if you play arranger keyboard the way most do left hand chords/ right hand lead/comp which is most of the market here lies their decision to NOT make a 76/88 anymore.....another reason is now we have midi controller keyboards of all sizes which significantly cut into the keyboard sales and has made NOT making 76/88 arrangers even more of a good idea when you can buy a controller Kb and do what you want. 76 keys is a dying breed.

Good point Chas...and thanks for siding with me...I always knew you could recognize a winner.

Steve Deming has told some people it is because the demand for 76'ers is too small for Yamaha to enter that marketing segment, pertaining to mid and top line arrangers.

He didn't say there was no demand...he just said there was not enough demand.

Now, why would a company make a product there is not much demand for...especially if that tiny niche is already filled with products by Korg, and to a lesser extent, by Ketron and Mediastation?

If this segment were so lucrative, why didn't Roland make a 76'er to replace both G-70 and E-60? They already have the components, and according to G-70 owners, it's technology is still competitive, and since some people also believe that the cost of making a new case/cabinet is negligible, there's no reason why they didn't make one....unless the market is too small to warrant it.

If there was a viable market, do you honestly think a big company like Yamaha wouldn't want to be in on it?

Methinks that Steve is right, and my own experience in the field bears this out...I have a good idea what is selling and what is wanted; I deal with many arranger players on a day to day basis, and I am a member of several public and private Yamaha forums.

This controversy wages on and on because some people aren't satisfied with Yamaha's stated reasons.

Is it any wonder it hasn't concluded?

Ian

Once again, Ian flogs the dead horse of negative Roland comparison, in the vain attempt to cloud the issue and get a rise out of me. As I have said before (and been completely ignored) if Roland's 61's were still viable but their 76's took a beating, you'd have a point. BUT YOU DON'T. Roland have stopped production on ALL arrangers with the exception of the BOTL. Korg haven't stopped production (despite YEARS of you predicting the same thing, Ian - this discussion goes back a LONG time), Ketron haven't stopped production, even Yamaha haven't stopped production They make DGX's and NP-V80's...

76 note arrangers. Plain and simple.

(If you think that the NP-30's action feels ANYTHING like a piano at all, Donny, you really should try to play a real one from time to time! ).

The trouble is, every time you go and give a hard and fast reason why Yamaha shouldn't do something, they go and do it anyway! The NP-V80 is a 76 note arranger. A very poor one, certainly, and without a real piano feeling keybed, too, but a 76 note arranger, nonetheless. So much for market research...

All we get here is 'Yamaha can do no wrong' from its' fanboys, all evidence to the contrary. You can't make the failures they had go away by pretending they didn't happen. And for Yamaha's market research to be the geniuses you make out, they would have to NEVER make a mistake... And that is sadly not the case.

They are making one now. If the S910 is the best 61 MOTL arranger, a 76 S910 would HAVE to be the best 76... Your logic dictates this. But, apparently, only Yamaha's competitors can make a profit selling MOTL and TOTL 76's, while Yamaha's appeal fails completely once you can play well... Yamaha are good at making toys, but scared of competing against others that successfully make a profit (you don't honestly think Korg make a LOSS on the PA2Xpro, do you? ) in a market they know exists.

That fits the facts as well as 'Yamaha can do no wrong'...

Once again Diki, you flog a dead horse by saying the NP-V80 is an arranger.

It is a piano with arranger features.

I'm beginning to understand why James put you on ignore...you can't accept when you are wrong.

And, you are wrong in this case.

Ian

Because you or Yamaha Marketing say I am? I guess that is all we need, eh?

I mean, a shred of evidence would be overkill, wouldn't it?

The NP-V80 does NOT have a piano-like keyboard. Play one if you don't believe me. It is as flimsy and as plastic a keybed as you are ever likely to get on any arranger. My G70 is FAR more piano-like (by comparison)... Hey, I guess, if your definition (and Yamaha's) is correct, all these years of telling me I have a home arranger were wrong, weren't they? Apparently, I have a Piano product!

Sorry, Ian, but you are going to have to back up your assertion with maybe a FACT or two, before simply calling me wrong is anything more than egotism... I bring up point after point, you completely ignore them, and then go on to bleat the company line ad nauseam. To quote Monty Python

'That's not an argument! That's just contradiction!...

'No it isn't....!'

Yamaha knows more about what they sell than you....you're just a Roland fanboy, and way out of your league.

The action of the NP-V80 piano is a lightweight graded action...many companies, including Roland, sold these types of light actioned instruments years ago....and they were sold as "pianos".

Some of these EP-series had accompaniments, yet they were still sold as pianos and never called "arrangers".

The NP-V80 is based on the NP-30 (the "NP" should give you a clue), which is a piano, whether it meets your definition or not.

So, you are wrong.

I know it's very hard to accept you are, but, as you always say, "grow a pair", and accept reality.

It'll make you feel much better...and Chas and I will be so proud.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 06-16-2010).]

What is egotistical is your inane belief that you know more about Yamaha's products than it's marketers and employees.

My ego does not enter into this equation at all..I'm merely quoting Steve Deming and Yamaha's web sites.

You are making up your own definitions...that's what is egotistical.

If you want a fact to sink your dentures into, it is spelled out for you very plainly on Yamaha's web sites.

The NP--V80 is a piano...or to be even more on point, a "Versatile Piano"...that's what the "VP" stands for.

Can't get much more "factual" than that...certainly well beyond your vain attempts to call it something it is not.

Be a big Diki and admit you're wrong...don't let that big ego run the show.

You're not the bus driver...you're just another passenger.

Ian

Anyone else tired of the Ian / Diki battle besides me? I'm sure some find it amusing, but I'm sick of this bickering. Take it outside, boys.

Tim

Sorry about the bickering, Tim...I'm actually weary of it myself.

Keep an eye on the Yamaha web site for more demos of this nifty little piano.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 06-16-2010).]