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#289050 - 06/12/10 03:19 PM arrangers vs. PC software
arranger_yes_pc_no Offline
Member

Registered: 07/16/09
Posts: 319
hey all....just got a fantastic PSR-3000.
This keyboard exceeded all my expectations.

I still remember a couple of years ago when I was frustrated with making music on PC and wanting an arranger to write music on. My idea was to abandon the approach of writing music directly on the computer, because I would always getting problems for a reason or another from the software, etc (and I have used computers for 10 years, so I am no newcomer)

I have used (and still use) ,other than the standard boring Cubase stuff, Band In a Box with all the Realtracks, plus Kontakt and three killer libraries from Eastwest.

But I was so sick of computer technical problems and also complexity. Since I started to use hardware arrangers.....wow, what a change. WOW !
I bought and tried a few older keyboard because in my mind spending so much money for an arranger would not make sense ....I would still fall into the trap of thinking 'well, with that money I can buy that great sounding library'. What a mistake, and what I missed by making that mistake.

So I took the plunge and got an used PSR-3000 from Whitley Bay Organs.... I choose to buy from them after reading good stuff about this shop on these forums, and I am glad I did. They sent me a PSR-3000 for 499 in lovely condition. I love this keyboard, it's so easy to build great arrangements with, it's fullfilling all my musical activities...the flash key is a blast, I previously bought a PSR-1000 to save a bit of money over the 3000, and was working my ass off to transfer my midi files from the PC to the floppy.

Wow, that flash key on the 3000 made me realize what an idiot I had been, I should have bought this keyboard before. Now I have a little key with my whole midi library with thousands of soundtracks and songs, and for those songs who are available only as audio, I just connect my MP3 player in the Line in and jam away.
I thought it was only good for singing, but no, it even doubles as a line-in , perfect!

What all this means? It means that I can turn off the PC entirely and don't even need it for playing any music files at all, which is great as I end up focusing on the music for hours without checking my email every 25 minutes!!

The chord recognition on the Yamahas is the best I have seen, as well as the ability to write anything in real time and step time. I am very fussy about exact harmony progressions. Also great sequencer to me is essential....I have tried some other makes but in my opinion Yamaha is the best for that....I did try some nice GEM keyboards and it was very difficult to write exact progressions with all the inversions I wanted, etc....but Yamaha really kicks ass in that department, plus the PSR-3000 is really an excellent well-round workstation, I love this simplicity and efficiency....

with the bloody PC software, before you set in punch in and out points for overdubs you have to go through 15 steps. By the time you get there, you even forget what you were trying to do (and it happened many times to me!) On the Yamaha it automatically records and overwrite the previous part as soon as I hit the first key. Or you can just press a pedal for the ins and outs, no need to enter horrid numeric values. Not even Cubase has the super-efficient little things as on an arranger !!

I am not throwing away the PC stuff, my idea is to write the music with my arranger from start to end, then export as a midi file and replace the sounds with the libraries I have.

But for writing music, forget it. I'll never look back again.....the arranger is a real instruments made for musicians, the PC stuff gives you the illusion of mind-blowing potential but if you think about all the time you have to invest in it to make things work, you'll grow old....and it'll never work in exactly the way you want.

Take Band In a Box. Great program, sure. And the Realtracks sounds killer. But oh, how I hated it when I was writing the chords for a track and all of a sudden the software would include an augmented fifth or an augmented fourth in my progression. These notes require a particular way to handle them, and yet I could not get rid of them, even after trying all options, or I had to change style to make the progression less full of things I never wrote !! In the meantime, hours would pass by, without writing any music, only trying to make things work.

Another example where the arranger scores and the PC doesn't, even with expensive software: I have spent good money on a piano library from Eastwes. Great quality and sound, no doubts, except for one problem: the dynamics SUCK. Even with an hammer-action master keyboard, I can only get a very narrow dynamic range, like a bit more piano than mezzoforte and a bit more forte.

Where's pianissimo and fortissimo ? That one REALLY sucked, I would bang on the keyboard really hard trying to get a 'forte' in the choruses, to no avail.

Believe it or not,I like the piano sound in the PSR-3000 ! It has a nice dynamic range and sounds sweet! It's no 20 gb piano sounds, but I don't care, it plays better!

Plus, a good hardware arranger, for intros and endings, blows any software out of the way. I have spent hours just studying the great sounding intros on these arrangers. One man Band plays Yamaha styles so the intros etc are there, but it's very hard to find a soft GM module for it that sounds as good as an hardware arranger.
Well, there's the Ketron SD1, but I was still getting other problems.

An hardware arranger is the best. The apparent higher cost will more than pay off in the long run. I write more music with the arranger in a week than I did with all the stuff I have on the PC, in 5 months.
I can really focus on the music and just turn off the computer entirely, I remain immersed in the writing process without even missing the sampling libraries that I have and even forgetting to check my email (good thing!)

Just in case anybody is thinking to 'replace' a real arranger with PC stuff....don't do it. Maybe you want to use both, but don't fall in the illusion that a PC , with all it's 'possibilities' can substitude a real instrument. I have seen time and time again that it can't.

Anyways, sorry about the rambling...I just am so happy with my PSR-3000


[This message has been edited by arranger_yes_pc_no (edited 06-12-2010).]

[This message has been edited by arranger_yes_pc_no (edited 06-12-2010).]

[This message has been edited by arranger_yes_pc_no (edited 06-12-2010).]

[This message has been edited by arranger_yes_pc_no (edited 06-12-2010).]

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#289051 - 06/12/10 03:54 PM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10581
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
I use the arranger (a PSR-S910) for all my recording, using the PC just for burning the CD or converting the Wav to MP3.

I find having the styles and even the One Touch settings invaluable for getting down ideas quickly and painlessly.

I don't use any software recording programs, and prefer to do without them.

Congratulations on your PSR-3000...I had one, and it is a terrific instrument.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#289052 - 06/12/10 03:56 PM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 4771
Loc: English Riviera, UK
If you want to use your computer as an arranger you need arranger software, not Cubase or other sequencing software.
http://www.varranger.fr/
http://www.live-styler.de/home/
http://www.livearranger.com/

Then you can set up your master keyboard to operate like an arranger.

Not sure why you cant get the full dynamics on your master keyboard and piano samples, as I have found the default settings to work pretty much spot on. (You must have changed some setting without realising it)

If your using your computer for composing, set it up for music and not anything else (Set up different user accounts and use fast switching if you want use other things, just remember not to do it at the same time)

If you want full integration with everything both arranger software and computer software have to offer, then go for an open keyboard that is specifically designed for the job, Such as;
http://www.lionstracs.com/store/groove-x7-red-p-251.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hAwYfXRv0c&feature=player_embedded

Hope this helps

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#289053 - 06/12/10 09:06 PM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 38736
Loc: NJ
Quote:
Originally posted by arranger_yes_pc_no:
hey all....just got a fantastic PSR-3000.
This keyboard exceeded all my expectations.

I still remember a couple of years ago when I was frustrated with making music on PC and wanting an arranger to write music on. My idea was to abandon the approach of writing music directly on the computer, because I would always getting problems for a reason or another from the software, etc (and I have used computers for 10 years, so I am no newcomer)

I have used (and still use) ,other than the standard boring Cubase stuff, Band In a Box with all the Realtracks, plus Kontakt and three killer libraries from Eastwest.

But I was so sick of computer technical problems and also complexity. Since I started to use hardware arrangers.....wow, what a change. WOW !
I bought and tried a few older keyboard because in my mind spending so much money for an arranger would not make sense ....I would still fall into the trap of thinking 'well, with that money I can buy that great sounding library'. What a mistake, and what I missed by making that mistake.

So I took the plunge and got an used PSR-3000 from Whitley Bay Organs.... I choose to buy from them after reading good stuff about this shop on these forums, and I am glad I did. They sent me a PSR-3000 for 499 in lovely condition. I love this keyboard, it's so easy to build great arrangements with, it's fullfilling all my musical activities...the flash key is a blast, I previously bought a PSR-1000 to save a bit of money over the 3000, and was working my ass off to transfer my midi files from the PC to the floppy.

Wow, that flash key on the 3000 made me realize what an idiot I had been, I should have bought this keyboard before. Now I have a little key with my whole midi library with thousands of soundtracks and songs, and for those songs who are available only as audio, I just connect my MP3 player in the Line in and jam away.
I thought it was only good for singing, but no, it even doubles as a line-in , perfect!

What all this means? It means that I can turn off the PC entirely and don't even need it for playing any music files at all, which is great as I end up focusing on the music for hours without checking my email every 25 minutes!!

The chord recognition on the Yamahas is the best I have seen, as well as the ability to write anything in real time and step time. I am very fussy about exact harmony progressions. Also great sequencer to me is essential....I have tried some other makes but in my opinion Yamaha is the best for that....I did try some nice GEM keyboards and it was very difficult to write exact progressions with all the inversions I wanted, etc....but Yamaha really kicks ass in that department, plus the PSR-3000 is really an excellent well-round workstation, I love this simplicity and efficiency....

with the bloody PC software, before you set in punch in and out points for overdubs you have to go through 15 steps. By the time you get there, you even forget what you were trying to do (and it happened many times to me!) On the Yamaha it automatically records and overwrite the previous part as soon as I hit the first key. Or you can just press a pedal for the ins and outs, no need to enter horrid numeric values. Not even Cubase has the super-efficient little things as on an arranger !!

I am not throwing away the PC stuff, my idea is to write the music with my arranger from start to end, then export as a midi file and replace the sounds with the libraries I have.

But for writing music, forget it. I'll never look back again.....the arranger is a real instruments made for musicians, the PC stuff gives you the illusion of mind-blowing potential but if you think about all the time you have to invest in it to make things work, you'll grow old....and it'll never work in exactly the way you want.

Take Band In a Box. Great program, sure. And the Realtracks sounds killer. But oh, how I hated it when I was writing the chords for a track and all of a sudden the software would include an augmented fifth or an augmented fourth in my progression. These notes require a particular way to handle them, and yet I could not get rid of them, even after trying all options, or I had to change style to make the progression less full of things I never wrote !! In the meantime, hours would pass by, without writing any music, only trying to make things work.

Another example where the arranger scores and the PC doesn't, even with expensive software: I have spent good money on a piano library from Eastwes. Great quality and sound, no doubts, except for one problem: the dynamics SUCK. Even with an hammer-action master keyboard, I can only get a very narrow dynamic range, like a bit more piano than mezzoforte and a bit more forte.

Where's pianissimo and fortissimo ? That one REALLY sucked, I would bang on the keyboard really hard trying to get a 'forte' in the choruses, to no avail.

Believe it or not,I like the piano sound in the PSR-3000 ! It has a nice dynamic range and sounds sweet! It's no 20 gb piano sounds, but I don't care, it plays better!

Plus, a good hardware arranger, for intros and endings, blows any software out of the way. I have spent hours just studying the great sounding intros on these arrangers. One man Band plays Yamaha styles so the intros etc are there, but it's very hard to find a soft GM module for it that sounds as good as an hardware arranger.
Well, there's the Ketron SD1, but I was still getting other problems.

An hardware arranger is the best. The apparent higher cost will more than pay off in the long run. I write more music with the arranger in a week than I did with all the stuff I have on the PC, in 5 months.
I can really focus on the music and just turn off the computer entirely, I remain immersed in the writing process without even missing the sampling libraries that I have and even forgetting to check my email (good thing!)

Just in case anybody is thinking to 'replace' a real arranger with PC stuff....don't do it. Maybe you want to use both, but don't fall in the illusion that a PC , with all it's 'possibilities' can substitude a real instrument. I have seen time and time again that it can't.

Anyways, sorry about the rambling...I just am so happy with my PSR-3000


[This message has been edited by arranger_yes_pc_no (edited 06-12-2010).]

[This message has been edited by arranger_yes_pc_no (edited 06-12-2010).]

[This message has been edited by arranger_yes_pc_no (edited 06-12-2010).]

[This message has been edited by arranger_yes_pc_no (edited 06-12-2010).]


all I know is that Diki has some writing competition

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#289054 - 06/12/10 10:44 PM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 6500
Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
all I know is that Diki has some writing competition



Nah, I think its just Diki that made a new account to try and prove the same old things from a different viewpoint..

There is just to many flaws in this story to give it any serious consideration..


But then for some/most people that have a hard way to comprehend the new technollogy closed keyboards are just the way to go, and they will be very happy with them in the end.
_________________________
Yamaha Genos and Modx 8, MFC10, Ipad pro.

http://keyszone.boards.net

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#289055 - 06/12/10 11:30 PM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10581
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Bachus:

But then for some/most people that have a hard way to comprehend the new technollogy closed keyboards are just the way to go, and they will be very happy with them in the end.


Either that, or they're smart enough not to need the so called "new technology" in the first place.

All we've seen on SZ is people making "open arrangers" behave like closed ones.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#289056 - 06/12/10 11:39 PM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10581
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
all I know is that Diki has some writing competition



Would that be in sheer volome, or in content?
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#289057 - 06/12/10 11:41 PM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
Ensnareyou Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/02
Posts: 491
Loc: California
If you are using high end East West and Kontakt samples and think the PSR-3000 sounds are anywhere near the same quality, you seriously need to have your studio monitors or your hearing checked.

Any issues you are having with dynamics has to be an error in the setting of your system as the East West Piano samples are multi layered with more velocity cross fades and dynamic range than those on your PSR-3000. There's a reason they use 20-40GB for a single sound, it's called multiple layers, multiple velocity switching, longer samples, and more samples per sound.

There isn't a "closed" keyboard made that can compete with the best VST sounds available, its just not possible with the limited RAM and CPU power that closed keyboards utilize. I don't care how well you sample 128, 256, or even 512 MB of sounds and edit them, when a single sound on a high end VST uses 10, 20, 30GB or more and has nearly every key of the instrument sample mapped, its bound to be leaps ahead of your closed system.

Computers can be problematic and I agree that using an all in one system can be much better. The key is to find an all in one system that has great sounds, tons of features, expansion capability, lots of polyphony, is intuitive, and is built very well. For me that was a Wersi Abacus. For you it seems to be a PSR-3000 which is baffling to many I am sure.

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#289058 - 06/13/10 01:55 AM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10581
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
There's no argument against "open" arrangers having more powerful sounds available, but as far as playing styles, they aren't any better than a closed system...at least from what has been shown so far.

Not everyone requires sounds at the level of VST's...many of us are quite happy with the excellent on-board voices supplied with the instrument.

I believe the OP has decided he prefers the all-in-one approach...if it works "better" for his needs, then it is, in his case, "better".

I don't need/want to use software recording, and I prefer doing mine on the arranger...it's editing functions are perfect for my purposes, and the streamlined method of it's recording features allow much better capturing of ideas while they are still fresh.

The sounds are more than acceptable on today's MOTL arrangers, easily rivalling TOTL instruments, and just one of the many reasons why so many pros are using them.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#289059 - 06/13/10 02:47 AM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 6500
Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
Either that, or they're smart enough not to need the so called "new technology" in the first place.

All we've seen on SZ is people making "open arrangers" behave like closed ones.

Ian





The strong selling point of open workstations/arrangers is for people that make their own music and own arrangements.

Still Lionstracs instruments are far from open.... as all buttons are tightly knit to the lionstracs interface. This allows for easy access and easy operation..

I think Lionstracs is the perfect mix between an open system and a closed arranger.. because live-arranger works pretty much like a closed arranger.. which also needs a standard soundset, because otherways it will be very hard to create content for these instruments...

Open-labs systems are much more open then Lionstracs... because of their freely programmable interface and knobs..

But the Liomnstracs almost offers all features without most of the downfalls as written about by Diki under his new account.
To be accessible there needs to be standards, Lionstracs is way less open then a PC, and exactly that adds possibillities for the community as there is a standard.
_________________________
Yamaha Genos and Modx 8, MFC10, Ipad pro.

http://keyszone.boards.net

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