Didja see this?

The Piaggero NP-V80:

76 keys (non-hammer)
USB to DEVICE
160 styles
Intelligent Arpeggiator
Under 16 lbs.
$399.00 USD

No, it's not a 76 key Tyros, but it's heading in the right direction.

Probably not good enough for a pro, but interesting, none the less. (more like a PSR E-423 on steroids)

Shipping in August. Here's a European site - every time I post the US site, it disappears...
http://europe.yamaha.com/en/products/musical_instruments/keyboards/digitalkeyboards/np_v80

[This message has been edited by CoasterTim (edited 06-01-2010).]

YO GUYS!!!

I said, a YAMAHA ARRANGER with 76 KEYS! Doesn't that warrant a response? All you that have been crying for a 76 key arranger, it's beginning to happen. Maybe in 6 years it will trickle into the TOTL !
Or not.

http://europe.yamaha.com/en/products/mus...v80/?mode=specs

32 note polyphony? It's a toy.

Yamaha HAVE been making 76 note arrangers... DGX's, CVP's (at 88), now this. But they seem determined to NOT make a good one. I still think that an S910 with a 76 keybed would sell like hotcakes. But Yamaha are determined to never let us find out, are they? It's not like they have ever even TRIED, the 9000pro being a VERY expensive TOTL disaster (and the disaster came because of the OS, hardware and cost, not the number of keys).

It's curious that Yamaha think there's a need for a larger keyboard at the low end, but no need whatsoever for the better and more well heeled player... Do our skills get WORSE as we get older?

Sorry, Tim, but this is no more heading in the right direction than the DGX series is...

What Diki said...

And, the NP-v80 doesn't have USB support for additional styles or songs. That's a biggie today! If Yamaha would come out with a 20 lb. 76-key arranger, ala s910, then I might be interested in buy ing another arranger. Until then, I don't see anything out there worth switching to.

I would even be interested in a board with less sounds and styles as long as what was there was useable. I don't need sampling or a mic input/harmonizer or even tons of editable effects.

I can't see this being used as an arranger by anyone but a beginner...you can't play ON BASS chords, and even worse, there's only 32 note polyphony.

For a pro, or advanced player, the Korg PA2XPro is the only 76'er worth buying today, and they really have zero competition.

I seriously doubt if Yamaha plans on a larger than 5 octave TOTL, or MOTL arranger in the future....Roland stopped making their 76 note instruments, so the only one of the "big three" now making one is Korg.

It will be interesting to see if there is a successor to the PA2XPro.


Ian

You would think, with Roland out of the MOTL 76 market, that Yamaha would think to fill the void...

Mind you, a 20 lbs. 76 S910 is a bit optimistic, cassp, as the 61 weighs about 25 lbs.! Probably 30 lbs. is a more realistic figure, if they stick to the NP-30's keybed or an expanded S910 one... I think the E60 was about 28 lbs., so that proves a quality keybed 76 CAN be made light enough...

The thing is, it is so frustrating to watch Yamaha completely ignore the MOTL and TOTL 76 market, while demonstrating that they obviously think there IS a market for 76 arrangers. And logic seems to indicate that, if a 76 is needed at the low end, it is needed even MORE as you progress musically. Add to that how little it would cost Yamaha to simply make a larger case but leave the electronics exactly the way they are, and you have a head scratcher of the highest degree.

Steve Demming actually called me at home quite a while ago, and we had quite a conversation about why Yamaha won't make a 76 arranger, the gist of which was essentially, there's no demand for one. And yet, here are Yamaha, showing once again that they DO think there's a demand for one.

Just not a GOOD one...

Cassp, it DOES feature USB to device that allows additional songs/styles.

I'm not defending this toy, nor suggesting any of you buy one. Just that I found it interesting and with future potential.

I'm sticking with my s910 and Pa800.

Yes, Steve and I have talked about this as well...and, he's right, there was found to be little demand for 76 notes in the high range and mid-range arrangers.

However, in the piano based arrangers, like the DGX, the CVP-series, and this new model NP-V80, there will always be the need for at least 76 (and 88) keys, and, they are quite successful, as are the Tyros and PSR five-octave instruments.

Korg has the small segment of 76 note pro arrangers pretty well to itself...and, probably will do well, as long as there is no competition from Ketron, and Liontracs...so far, they aren't much of a threat.

I'm sure if the demand for 76 note high end arrangers was to increase to the point where it was viable for Yamaha, or Roland, to make a significant profit, they'd be making them.

Ian

How do you find out there's no demand until you MAKE one? There certainly seems to be a fair number of this forum's membership that use 76's. So much for no demand...

There are even those amongst us that state quite unequivocally that if Yamaha DID make a T3 or S910 in a 76, we would actually buy it!

And sorry, but ALL arrangers are 'piano based arrangers'. In fact, the piano sounds in the S910 and T3 definitely blow this toy out of the water. What makes these 'piano based'? More than 61 keys, and that is ALL.

Let's call a spade a spade. If there were NO demand for 76 note arrangers, there would be no NP-V80, and there would be no DGX's. And if there IS a demand for 76 note arrangers, it extends, quite obviously, up into the MOTL and TOTL lines, too. Or there would be no sales of PA2Xpros, Audya's, SD-1's, E60's, G70's G1000's and all the innumerable other 76 arrangers that, apparently in Yamaha's addled mind, are not bought and used...

Stick your fingers in your ears, your head in the sand, and go 'La la la la la' as loud as you can, and just about ANYTHING that is patently obvious can be denied. But if there's a market for a DGX, for an NP-V80, there IS a market for a 76 S910. Why would any toy 61 arranger player want to upgrade to maybe an S910 as he got better, and an NP-V80 or DGX user NOT want to?

You are defending patent absurdity, Ian...

Well, Diki, there is such a thing called market research.

Roland has decided there is no need for 76 note arrangers, but they found out about it the hard way...they made them, and they didn't sell.

Why don't you get a job working for Roland or Yamaha, and present your theories to them?

They're bound to listen to a smart lad like yourself, who feels he knows far more than the professionals they have working for them.

Problem solved.

Ian

Diki is right. Just because Yamaha is huge doesn't make them right. Any more than Sony
holding on to the Betamax, licensing only the inferior vhs format, and then getting blown out of the water with lower-priced vhs taking over the market and killing the better system.
Or giant RCA with its videodisc player--if they gave those away or even sold them at cost, they had the market cornered because they would have sold zillions of movie discs. But they let vhs players undercut them and everyone bought those because they thought they would be taping stuff (although it turned out very small% actually did tape shows after the initial novelty of it)
It actually almost put RCA out of business, the losses were so huge. But they stubbornly kept the price of the videodisc player higher than the vhs player.
So Yamaha is just as dumb as Sony and RCA were when it comes to stubbornly refusing to make MOTL and TOTL 76-ers. The only difference is the market is so much smaller than for the rca/sony products, it really can't hurt them that bad being dumb.

------------------
Miami Mo

[This message has been edited by keysvocalssax (edited 06-01-2010).]

Mo...you and Diki need to apply for the same job with these companies...they just might be looking for armchair marketing experts.

Why do these companies offer 61, 76, and weighted 88 options in their workstation models now, if "there's no demand for a 76".
If Roland had 61-key version alongside the 76-key version of the G70, at a small discount,
do you think an overwhelming % of arranger players would choose the 61? Did sales of the 61-key E50 blow sales of the 76-key E60 out of the water? It's not good logic to say that if a 76-key keyboard is not a big seller, that's due to the fact it's a 76. Not unless you have a 61-key version of the same unit at a rational discount to the 76
(not a tremendous price stepdown like E50) and the sales of the 61 are great and the 76 sales suck. That's the only true test.

------------------
Miami Mo

Ian, you are reminding me of some sports blogs i'm on. some bloggers make excellent points about how GM's or coaches could have done this or that...and others rejoin with " what are your qualifications vs. Pat Riley?" sorry, if you want to argue on the basis of real arguments, i'm all ears--if you want to say who are we to question the big boys: i give you Sony, RCA....and...George Bush.

------------------
Miami Mo

Do you really think the workstation market and arranger market are the same?

Thing is, if Yamaha's research indicated a 76 note arranger would be profitable, don't you think they'd be making it?

They like making money for their shareholders like everyone else.

It would be interesting to get real hard figures on how many PA2XPro arrangers Korg sells, against the 5 octave PA-800.

Ian

The two new models:
Piaggero NP-V60 and NP-V80 are both 76 lightweighted 76 key ditial pianos (like the NP-30) that also feature built in styles like what you will find on the DGX235. The difference will be these keybaords are smaller, a bit lighter and the V80 will also feature a USB thumb drive port for playing and saving midifiles (the V60 does not).
The speaker system is also upgraded on the V80.
There is also an arppegiator on the 80.
The retail price will be $499.00 for the 60 and $599.00 for the 80.
Having only 32 note polyphony is not very bright! Not any more at least. There should be at least 64 if not 128.
I saw these products at the Winter NAMM show but the batteries were dead and couldn't here anything. I was hoping to see one of these with the sounds and features of the 910 but not so.


------------------
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California
818-881-5566
www.kayesmusicscene.com

Ian, Sony's research showed they shouldn't license the Betamax, keep it for themselves,
and they would make a lot more money than the companies who licensed the vhs from them.
Likewise RCA research showed them the public would buy tons of their players. And Ford did a lot of research before launching..THE EDSEL.
how many more examples do you need?
your arguments are specious. All such "who are you to question them" arguments are specious, and I won't accept them. find another way to make your point, please...


------------------
Miami Mo

You'll have to be content with what I've already posted, Mo...I'm no expert, and I only can pass on what I've learned from working with the company for over 25 years.

They've made mistakes, and, they've learned from them...and, they've no doubt, learned from watching others like Sony and Ford etc.

Their reasons for not going with a 76 note arranger may involve more than just researching their own markets...it may involve studying how others are doing in the marketplace. I'm sure they have a steady eye on Korg and it's PA2XPro, and no doubt, they've also had a look at Roland's departure from the 76-note arranger field.

I may be wrong, but I highly doubt if there will be a 76 note high, or mid range arranger in the near future...if there is, it is my guess that it will be introduced in the S-series, and not the Tyros.

But, that's just a guess.

Ian

I believe Roland sold every G70 and E80 they manufactured....I would love to see the numbers of units that Yamaha, Roland and Korg actually sold....I think there would be a lot of folks surprised by the results...without the hype..

It reminds me of the stories of old....Yamaha DX7 breaking all records of sales....then Roland's D-50 doing the same, and reported sales of Korg's M1 topping both Yamaha and Roland's best selling models of the day..

One thing people seem to confuse with the 76 key keyboard market is whether the “reason” for not making a 76 key keyboard is the number of keys or the weight.


If the G70 did not do well in sales, was it because it had 76 keys?
If the MS does not do well in sales, is it because it has 76 keys?
If the Audya does not do well in sales, is it because it has 76 keys.
If the PSR S910 does well in sales, is it because it only has 61 keys?


It would be interesting to see what if any difference in sales did the Roland E 50 (61 keys) and the E 60 (76 keys) have.


And when Korg made the PA1x and PA 1x pro keyboards, where both of them were heavy, which one had the most sales.

Finding the reasons why Yamaha does not make 76 note TOTL and MOTL arrangers, would be just as likely as learning the reasons behind why Roland stopped making the 76-note G-70 and E-60 arrangers, but still stayed with 61 notes for the new Prelude/GW-8.

Only those inside the companies know those answers and reasons, and anything else would be mostly speculation.

Ian

Come on Ian..it is common sense..The Prelude and GW-8 are low to mid priced instruments...the whole market is dictated by price...and I will give you a hint...Naa never mind..

Roland has been developing another 76 "G" type arranger.....you can mark my words and call me out if it doesn't materialize..

I have more sources then you do in this matter... ...and I know the reason for the delay production.. ...and it ain't because them folks are broke..

That could be true Fran...I do know the Roland clinician quite well, as I used to work with him, but, of course, if anything's on the way or not, he ain't going to tell me, and, if he did, I certainly wouldn't break confidence and put it on a public forum.

I felt bad to see Roland stop making TOTL arrangers, as competition always improves the breed, and we, the consumers, always benefit.

Ian

Are we going to discuss why there are very few 76 note arrangers again ??????

havent we danced this dance like 20 million times already !!!

You know what Spalding? You're right!

This is ending up to be another "round and round she goes" discussion that we've pretty well worn out.

Ian

The more ya dance, the better ya dance...let's hear it for 76 keys!

maybe a song would help the cause?

76-key boards led the big parade, with 110
great styles close behind, da da da da da......

------------------
Miami Mo

Here we go again.

Yes, Yamaha does make 76 key arrangers. The only problem being is they are all low to mid range models and even mid range is a stretch of the imagination in my opinion. Now if there was a 76 key S-930 or whatever then calling it a mid range board would be on the mark but not a DGX, etc.

I want to remind forum members that our illustrious Steve Deming of Yamaha U.S. stated several months ago that he hoped Yamaha would indeed come through with a 76 key top of the line arranger because most assuredly Steve realizes that roughly half of all arranger players actually prefer 76 or more keys. Steve's words gave me a glimmer of hope that Yamaha was indeed pondering the possibility of introducing a hallmark top of the line 76 key Professional Workstation Arranger that would compete with their competition from Korg, Roland, and indeed from Ketron as well.

FWIW, Yamaha is number one in sales of not only arrangers in general but of traditional workstations and even acoustic pianos and as such puts them at the top as king of the hill so to speak. Which means they may or may not find it necessary to once again delve into the 76 key totl arranger arena even if their competition offers them, because Yamaha's overall marketshare makes them more flexible on choosing whether to gamble on a particular segment or not. That said, I hope Yamaha does indeed choose to enter the 76 key totl arranger arena once again. Not necessarily from the standpoint of gambling on a possible arranger winner amongst the competition but from the standpoint that thousands of arranger users who prefer Yamaha products, and even those outside the Yamaha brand, also prefer 76 keys or better if they had the choice. In other words, that Yamaha would see the need and would be willing to fulfill that need for their customers as well as potential customers worldwide, as an act of gracious kindness by Yamaha to roughly half of all arranger players who prefer 76 keys or better. We'll see... in about a year and a half i.e. November 2011 or thereabouts. I won't hold my breath but I'm still hoping for the best.

All the best,
Mike

76-key boards led the big parade
With 110 great styles close at hand
They were followed by rows and rows of the finest virtuosos;
the cream of every famous band.

76-key boards caught the morning sun
With a hundred and ten cornets right behind
There were more than a thousand reeds springing up like weeds,
There were horns of every shape and kind

There were copper bottom tympani in horse platoons
Thundering, thundering, all along the way
Double bell euphoniums and big bassoons
Each bassoon having his big fat say

There were fifty mounted cannon in the battery
Thundering, thundering, louder than before
Clarinets of every size and trumpeters who'd improvise
A full octave higher than the score

76-key boards hit the counter point
While a hundred and ten cornets played the air
To the rhythm of 'Harch Harch Harch!'
All the kids began to march
And they're marching still, right today

AND YOU STILL WANT TO PLAY ON 61????????????

------------------
Miami Mo

My preference.......122 keys and 20 pedals (Nord C1 + Roland PK7a pedalboard).

Anybody know which sells best in the Workstation market; 61 or 76/73 or 88? Talking about apples and apples....example M3-61 vs. M3-73, Fantom G6 vs. G7 vs. G8, etc.

chas

Every dumb decision, and unsuccessful product was made on the back of intensive 'market research', Ian...

The trouble is, Yamaha limit their market research to customers ALREADY playing a Yamaha. And if they don't have 76 players to start with, they are going to get a preponderance of 61 fans in the result.

And if Roland's 61's were selling, but their 76's weren't, THAT argument would not be the absurdity it is...

There's only ONE way to find out if a product will sell. That is to MAKE IT. And as little as it would cost Yamaha to simply add a 76 to an existing, successful product, what have they got to lose? They obviously didn't mind gambling on the low end 76 market. I bet it would cost Yamaha less to tool up for a 76 S910 than it did to make the almost entirely new NP-V80.

But the deeper question is, why aren't you questioning Yamaha about the obviously dumb decision to make the NP-V80? I mean, everybody KNOWS that arranger players don't need 76 notes, don't they? You've been telling it to us for years. This is like Jesus telling us it's OK to steal...

Because it is a piano based arranger...much like the DGX and CVP.

The PSR and Tyros aren't piano based, hence the five octave keyboard.

You should really be directing these questions to Yamaha's marketing division, but wait...didn't you just tell us you were talking with Steve Deming, from Yamaha, and the gist of the conversation was there was no demand for a 76-note arranger?

I realize you'd like to see Yamaha make a 76 note Tyros4, so you can finally move up from those oldie but goodie G-70's, but it doesn't appear to be in Yamaha's near future.

It's a good thing you had the foresight to get an extra G-70.

I'll be very interested to see if Korg continue with the 76-note PA "pro" series...although they basically have the market all to themselves (Audya and Mediastation aren't finished enough to be competitive), will they sell enough of these arrangers to warrant a continuation of that model?

Ian





[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 06-06-2010).]

Actually, I'd be going for a 76 S910 if there was the option.

The thing is, what on earth is the difference between these 'piano based' arrangers and normal ones..? Square keys? Because that's all there is. No other difference whatsoever... Not even weight of keys, as the NP's action is as lightweight and horrible as any synth keybed. Completely unweighted. Nothing to do with a piano at all...

You are grasping at straws to justify the unjustifiable. The NP-V80 is the arranger from Yamaha we have all been asking for. Just, unfortunately, a pathetic, crippled, basically useless version of what we have all been asking for. I would simply like to understand the logic where a BOTL product like this has NO upward path from, but a BOTL 61 arranger DOES... Does Yamaha really think that anyone that chooses a 76 BOTL arranger is NOT going to want to upgrade ever, but a BOTL 61 note arranger user IS..?

There is NOTHING 'pianistic' about the NP-V80. Every arranger out there with 76 keys has at least as good a piano sound in it, and enough keys to play it on, and having square unweighted keys doesn't magically turn it into anything different except to those looking desperately for an excuse for Yamaha having made this blunder.

Actually the difference is the piano based arrangers have more than five octaves...the one's that aren't piano based, the "normal ones", as you put it, have 61 keys.

From Yamaha's NP-V80 description...

"In both design and playability, Yamaha's piaggero embodies the almost lyrical combination of "piano" and "leggero" - Italian for "light" - that constitutes its name. NP-V80 is upper model of NP-V60.

Graded Soft Touch Keyboard just as on an actual piano with soft touch of digital keyboard."

The instrument is based on a digital piano...the NP-30. It has 76 lightweight graded keys.

No "normal" arrangers I know of have graded keys, only the piano based ones have them.

The instrument in question, the NP-V80, was designed for those wanting a lightweight digital piano with some arranger features.

Now, let's see...anyone buying a Roland arranger, cannot upgrade to 76 keys...they only have the Prelude/GW-8 arrangers.

If 76 notes were as popular in a higher end arranger as you say, why didn't Roland continue to give their customers a choice of 76 keys when upgrading?

Roland has no 76 note upgraded versions of the Prelude/GW-8 available, yet you seem to feel that Yamaha should make a 76-note PSR-S-series.

So, how come, if the market is so lucrative, neither Roland or Yamaha wants to provide an instrument to fill it?

And you thought I was grasping at straws...you've got your head in a haystack.

Ian

Seems you are incapable of simply sticking to the point, Ian. This has NOTHING whatsoever to do with Roland. Roland have ceased production on ALL arrangers except BOTL 61's. If they were still producing MOTL and TOTL 61's, you'd have a point, but sadly, you DON'T.

I've played an NP-30, Ian. That has about as pianistic a feel as an S910! In other words, none!

Every single arranger manufacturer still making MOTL and TOTL arrangers except Yamaha are making 76's. Stick to the point.

Within the Yamaha company, the piano based arrangers have more than five octaves...the ones that aren't piano based, have 61 keys.


The instrument in question, the NP-V80, is based on the NP-30. The latter, like the former, has 76 lightweight graded keys...the NP-30 is classed as, and is sold as, a "digital piano" and it is in Yamaha's catalogue under that definition.

The NP-V80, was designed for those wanting a lightweight, entry level, digital piano with some arranger features.

As far as mid range and top range arranger instruments going with 76 keys...I don't think so...as Steve Deming said, there isn't enough demand.

I think we'll know just how strong the 76-note market actually is, if/when Korg produces another PA-Pro model to succeed the PA2XPro, or, even better...if Roland makes one to replace the G-70.


BTW, Roland used to make lightweight pianos with arranger functions similar to the NP-V80 Piano several years ago in the EP-series.

Ian





[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 06-06-2010).]

Just because Yamaha's marketing guys slap the word 'piano' on it doesn't make it a piano! They don't slap that word onto 76 note WS's... and if they did, it would make them look as stupid as trying to pretend the NP-30 has anything to do with a piano action!

Sure, if you want to define a 'piano keyboard' as anything Yamaha SAYS it is, then I can quite legitimately say a tomato is a piano too! Because I just said it's so... why should FACTS get in the way?

It is absurd to posit that ALL keyboards bigger than 61 notes are 'pianos'. It is patently obvious they are NOT.

The NP-V80 is a 76 note, light weight keyboard arranger. Calling it a 'piano' no more turns it into one that calling it a 'home organ', even though it has organ sounds in it. You have to give the Company Line a rest from time to time, Ian, and join the real world...

If you look for the NP-V80 in the "home arranger" section of the store, you won't find it...that's where they keep the G-70's.

The NP-V80's will be in with the digital pianos.


Ian

Wow! I have to agree with Diki on this one.

So I take it you would agree with Roland that the GW8 is a workstation and not an arranger?

Well guys, the companies have to put these instruments in some sort of category in order to market them properly...we wouldn't want to see another disaster like what happened to the Roland arrangers.

The NP-V80 is sold by Yamaha as an electronic piano with some arranger features.

The GW-8 is sold as a "workstation" by Roland, but it's single finger chording betrays it's origin as a home keyboard...the same goes for the G-70.

Ian

So the single finger chording of the NP-V80 makes it a 'home keyboard' too, then, doesn't it?

So much for it being a piano, then!

When you start to use the definition that a marketing idiot uses rather than your own common sense in deciding what something actually IS, you have crossed the line from reality into dream-land, Ian...

Doesn't having to repeat slavishly the Company Line ever get tiring...? Is there some rule that says you can't use your own judgment?

My G70 states quite clearly on the front panel that it is a 'Music Workstation'. So I guess that completely destroys your assertion that it is a 'home keyboard'. I mean, if Roland say it is, it MUST be, mustn't it?! Who are we to argue with the marketing divisions?

The DGX and CVP also have single finger chords, and they, like the NP-V80 are piano based arrangers.

You see, I prefer to go by what Yamaha calls them, so there is no mix-up...why fuss with the marketing people?

I only have to demo/play them and teach people how to get the most from the instruments.


We can play the definition game till the proverbial cows come home, and the NP-V80 will still be an electronic piano with arranger features, and single finger chords for beginners...AND, the G-70 will still be a Music Workstation (according to Roland, at least) which is actually an arranger that includes a single finger chords feature for beginner workstation players, I suppose.

Personally, I think if all these high end arrangers were intended only for pros, there would be no single finger chord feature at all.

But, it is quite obviously a carryover from when they were designed primarily for home hobbyist players, much like the organs were many moons ago.

Ian

I think you guys should stop this long distance relationship and just get married.



chas

There are 'pro' horn players using arrangers that might need the single finger option..!

There are single finger triggering of loops on WS's... yet they are still labeled as 'pro'...

The problem with definitions, especially those made up by marketing people (I'm afraid, as a salesman and demonstrator of Yamaha's, Ian, you sadly have to be lumped into that group) is that they bear little relationship to reality. They are merely conveniences for their own limited vision (they are marketing people for a reason!) of what a product can do.

But until you can come up with a definition for the NP-V80 that makes it into a piano, but DOESN'T make pretty much all other 76's into pianos as well, you simply haven't got it pinned down yet...

Me, I tend to want to make my own mind up about things. No good can come of abrogating that responsibility to a salesman, for Pete's sake!

I'm happy for you Diki..an unmade up mind must be a messy thing...I'm tickled you've got it sorted out.

I do have the distinct impression, and so should you, that Yamaha know what they are doing marketing wise, especially since they are still making (and selling) MOTL and TOTL arrangers, whereas companies like Roland, who failed miserably at marketing their mid and high end arrangers, had to leave the segment altogether...maybe Roland should have called/labeled them "Home Keyboards" instead of naming them "pro instruments".

The home market, for arrangers, as well as other keyboards, like digital pianos, is where the higher profits lurk...as well as more overall sales...I've been doing this stuff for quite some time, and that's been my observation.

So, I'll stick with my little job doing the demo/clinic thingy and enjoy the kind of gigs that are far easier, more enjoyable, more rewarding, and much more monetarily lucrative than playing the bars...sometimes I snag an occasional dinner music gig; a nice addition...and, as far as trying to explain to you how Yamaha markets it's products, I'll leave that to the more qualified amongst the company...call Steve again, he knows far more about that side of the business than I, and if he can't answer all your questions, he'll surely know someone who can.

I know Yamaha's marketing practices and jargon well enough to reinforce my clinician work, but, for the more stubborn and harder to please interrogators, I'm more than happy to pass them on to one of my more knowledgeable associates.

Ian

BTW, I'm not a salesman...I'm not allowed to sell...I simply point the client/customer in the direction of the person in front of the cash register.

I also rarely quote prices...that's the store's job.

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 06-07-2010).]

Well, like me, I see Peter believes it's a piano with arranger features.

Very nice little unit...should do very well...the NP-30 digital piano that it's based on, has been a great success for Yamaha.

Ian

Are there any demos of this keyboard out there with someone playing it yet besides Baartman's?

Yes it is interesting to see Yamaha have NO demos of this instrument.

Speaks volumes for what they think of the sound and the styles on-board

Dennis

Even Peter didn't play it! As good as he is, he could make it sound like a CVP 509.

BTW - I like the fact that they put an arpeggiator on it - and did you notice the USB port is right up front, not on the back?

On the downside, its voice set is pretty stingy - even worse than the E 423 voice set.

Tim

You're so naughty, Dennis.

Lionstracs and Ketron would love to have the sales numbers this little baby will generate.

I think it will sound quite a bit like the entry level PSR-E-series, with the piano sound, Live!Grand, being from the S-series.

Price of 500 Euros...not bad at all.

Those instruments may well have been prototypes...there should be some "official" demos up in the near future, for those of you waiting with bated breath.

It will make you 76-note Mediastation owners very envious.

Ian





[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 06-09-2010).]

LOL!!! Yes aren't I though

Seriously, I do cede to your knowledge about how it will sound...Its probably where I would have guessed its entry point was.

As to being envious, we'll be looking a LONG way down the hill behind us at this little offering from Yammie

It's just Yamaha usually are right on top of new releases, with not just the interviews, but demos as well....

Not that I would have bought one, but it still would have been interesting to hear how they get around the 32 poly..and to hear how they have implemented the arps.

Cheers,
Dennis

Actually, I hadn't heard of it till this thread was started, and I usually get a bit of notice, especially when it's a product I'll be working with, alongside the regular arrangers.

I'm rather surprised at the 32 note poly as well...once you start layering sounds, that sometimes can be a problem.

If it's anything like the PSR-E423/E423, it will be a pretty cool instrument...they sound very good, especially for the money, and the poly was 32 and didn't seem to affect playability.

My girlfriend has an NP-30, and the 32 note poly hasn't been a problem, and she is an experienced player.

I hope we see and hear some demos soon.

Ian

Cool! Thats good to know Ian. I did try the NP-30 on one of my trips to the "big-smoke", and to be honest, for the price point, it is a remarkable little keyboard, and I was sroely tempted to grab one, just as a spare axe for those slightly smaller gigs where its just piano playing-no vocals no lights, no laptop...You know what I mean!!

I still might, BUT if this little baby has the same main piano sound as the NP30 (which as I said in my view, was not too shabby at all ) I might wait for it instead...

Especially as early indications have it at a price-point of about a grand (our money..the pacific peso!!)

Dennis

I'm pretty sure they'd be the same, if not better...plus, like the NP-30, the NP-V80 has dedicated MIDI ports, plus the latter has a pitch bend wheel.

Ian

Terrific, thanks again Ian.
I will certainly keep an eye out for its arrival in Oz.

Dennis

Going to be tough to have it play piano AND be an arranger with just 32 notes poly. One usually thinks of 32 poly being a minimum for JUST the piano sound. Now subtract at LEAST 16 voices fro the arranger section, it could get ugly...

What I want to know is, why are we cutting this any slack? Because it has Yamaha on the logo?

All of us would rightfully laugh a 32 note arranger out of the room were it by any other manufacturer. I know for a FACT that, were Roland so stupid as to do this (they aren't, their budget arranger has 64 voices), Ian would be the FIRST to make a jibe about it

Not so funny any more, is it? This is simply one more example of Yamaha short-changing their customers. Want a 76? Too bad, sucka! All we got are sh*tty ones!

So, I take it that you're not getting two of them to replace your G-70's?

I think the NP-V80 piano based arranger will do very well for it's intended market, which, is obviously, the entry level player.

If it doesn't, you can be the first person to tell Yamaha how, and why, it failed.

Get back to us in a year or so with your report.

Ian

Like the 9000pro...?

You think Yamaha learned anything from that? Other than to blame the number of keys for a failure that was squarely on the shoulders of an underpowered CPU and poor OS?

Sadly, if the 9000pro had actually lived up to its' billing, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. Yamaha THOUGHT there was a market for a pro (they even used the word, although it had a One Finger system, too, Ian... are you wrong or were Yamaha? ) 76, but once again, ballsed it up...

The market is there. Just not Yamaha's heart. Seems they are unable to rise above even ONE failure.

We've been through this discussion before, about 76 keys and if the market is there or not.

You have no conclusive evidence to say it is, and Yamaha's arranger marketing surveys say it isn't.

You could try:

1)Gathering up concrete evidence that supports your theory and sending it to Yamaha.

2)You could try protesting in front of Yamaha's head office, but don't wear your Roland T-shirt...




Witness the G-70/E-60...this is simply one more example of Roland short-changing their customers.

Want a 76? Too bad, sucka!

All we got are sh*tty ones...oh wait...all we have is nothing.

Gee, now that REALLY sucks!.


Seriously, Diki, I certainly appreciate your campaign to try establish a 76 note pro arranger in Yamaha's line-up, and maybe someday they will make one, but I can't see it in the near future.

But, don't give up trying.

Ian

No such thing as a 'pro' arranger, Ian. The S910 certainly isn't one (by your own admission). All we want is a 76 version of the 'home' arrangers that are already popular.

Yamaha's market research has shown that there IS a market for many different types of 76 note arrangers (whether Yamaha want to call them that or not). And Yamaha's market research has shown that there is a market for a mid priced arranger with sophisticated sounds and OS (even though it is aimed squarely at the home market). But mysteriously, Yamaha think that these two markets are TOTALLY independent of each other. No-one that wants a sophisticated mid level arranger would EVER want a 76, and no-one that wants a 76 arranger would ever want a sophisticated one.

And if THAT doesn't strike you as absurd, I don't know what will...

no diki ! There simply arent enough of them to combine to make more profit than if the markets remain Sseparated !!!! Surely we dont need to go over this again and again. Just let it go......

I do hope you get your wish, Diki, but chances are slim, as Yamaha's marketing research doesn't agree with you.

The NP-V80 was made to compete with the lower end products like Casio's piano based arrangers...the DGX-series has been doing this already for some time.

Korg is the only one of the Big Three making a high end 76'er...Mediastation, and Audya are no competition, Roland is gone, and Casio is only doing entry level...the higher end market is so small, that Yamaha is not going to build a 76 note arranger for a few measly sales.

Since you are so sure, why not send Yamaha some hard evidence that the market for a 76 note high end arranger is lucrative?

That's your best bet.

Ian

Spalding, my friend, we know how dogged Diki is when it comes to trying to win a debate.

Thing is, this is not a debate...we both know the companies in question make it their business to recognize what's best for maximum profit, and that is the name of the game.

The relatively small (more like tiny) 76-note high end arranger market, isn't worth splitting with Korg...why would Yamaha make a dedicated 76'er for a portion of those sales?

It just doesn't make sense.

Ketron's Audya and Lionstracs' Mediastation aren't any indication of a demand for a 76 note arranger, the latter isn't even a good one, and the former is certainly not selling in droves...heck, it's still not totally finished yet.

We've been over this ad nauseum on several other threads, with no concrete evidence put forward to show the market is doable, and none of us are professional marketing strategists either...just armchair speculators.

The only thing that will make Diki let go, is if Yamaha makes a 76 note higher end arranger, or perhaps, if Roland returns to that segment of the market.

Evidence, so far, is to the contrary on both matters.

Ian

But one think we are always forgetting is that if Yamaha does not make 76 key arrangers, and Korg, Roland, MS and Audya does, can we really say that there is no market?


If the PSR S910 was only made as a 76 key and was compact and not heavy, does any reasonable person really think that sales would not be the same?

If Korg, Roland, MS and Ketron are making 76 key arrangers, why not Yamaha?

O and if you are going to say “look at the sales for those keyboards” is it because they are 76 key arrangers?


The fact is there is evidence to the contrary that there is no market for a 76 key arranger with Ketron, Korg, Roland and MS making them.
If Yamaha just ask people if they want a 76 key arranger, the answer would probably be know. Because most people associate 76 keys with being big and heavy.
Now if you ask if a keyboard with sounds and styles like the PSR S910 had 76 keys, was around 30LBS, and was one or two inches more than the S910, and there was no 61 key option, would that prevent people from buying it.
Research is all in the way you ask the question.

Where are the video demos for this keyboard?

Research is not only the way you ask the questions, but also how you interpret the answers.

However Yamaha conducts their marketing and business practices, is solely their idea of how things should be done which will give the company the most profit...not your idea, or mine.

I'm merely stating what Yamaha are doing...I did not do the market research, but I was informed of the results.

For all purposes, it appears, that Yamaha is doing very well in arranger sales...why should they change what works, to gamble on something that their marketing department says is a segment with a small demand?

If you have actual evidence, done by your research and by your pertinent questions and your interpretations of the answers, that Yamaha would make substantial profits by making 76-note high end arrangers, why not bring it to their attention?

BTW, Roland no longer makes 76 note arrangers...they only make 61 note instruments.

Ian

Where are the video demos for this keyboard?

Which keyboard, Donny...the NP-V80?

I don't see any, but perhaps they'll have them up shortly...it says on Keyboard Magazine that they begin shipping in the summer of 2010...I have one ordered for my sample account, but I probably won't see it till just after the summer.

Ian

Yes Ian the NP V80... only one is peter baartman explaining what it is & features, but NO actual playing of the keyboard anywhere as of yet why?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vCDYQXh720

I honestly don't know Donny.

Ian

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm....seems Yamaha is being very secretive on this one in the USA? 72 posts and No one has even heard it yet



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 06-11-2010).]

Possibly the two instruments on display in the video weren't production models, so they weren't likely to be officially demoed.

A home product such as the NP-V80 piano is designed for students, or people who need to move the instrument often...the big promotional push is usually a month or so before school/college goes back.

That's my guess anyway.

Ian

Ok I'll be watching for it ....just curios on its features and sound.

It is lacking one feature that I would have to have, if I was to use it for my gigs, and that is the ON BASS or bass inversion option in the fingering...also, the styles only have two variations...similar to DGX pianos.

The piano sound is the same Live! Grand in the NP-30 and P-85 pianos (and the PSR-S910), which is a nice AWM stereo sampled piano, that I really like a lot.

It says it has "dynamically responsive accompaniment" which I suppose, is much like on the PSR-S910, whereby you play the chord harder and the background gets louder, and it has 8 Sweet!, 5 Cool! And 3 Live! Voices.

For the price, it has quite a lot of features, including the USB to device storage of recorded songs.

I don't see pros using one, but you never know...I have a few buddies using NP-30's for casual gigs...12 lbs is pretty easy to carry...one guy uses his on batteries, with a battery powered amp; great for busking.

Ian

There's a bit of a demo here...it's about the arpeggiator.

http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/ContentDetail/ModelSeriesDetail.html?CNTID=5122655&CTID=205900

I'm sure we'll see more stuff in the very near future.

Ian

Thanx Ian kool stuff.....great find. Looks like Arpeggiator is really making a comeback in many of the newer units....will be interesting to see how it develops.

Perhaps we'll see even more sophisticated arpeggiators on the Tyros4, and the following S-series.

Arpeggiators are cool...I love the one on my Jupiter 8.

The one on Yammie's PSR-E423 is a hoot...very nice, and sweepable with the filter control.

Ian

Isnt it bad enough us arranger players are already lumped into the "FAKING PLAYERS CLUB" and held in low esteem by so called "REAL" musicians because of the automated styles and now instead of going away from that arpeggiators are just another form of multi-pads and other camoflauge smoke screen tricks to use to make the audience THINK we're really playing all this stuff when in realty we aren't, although many still fantasize that they are when using styles, smf, etc, etc, and every other automated gadget ...
I guess it's just par for the course in the Hi-Tech World we live in......maybe it was better years ago in the pre computer age when musicians REALLY played instruments without all this computer crap.......?

Ahhhhh whats the use?



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 06-11-2010).]

The arpeggiator is just another tool...and it can be used wisely and add to your performance, or be over-used and sound way too busy.

I like to spend time on my piano and just play without using accompaniments, but, for doing an arranger gig, I'm very comfortable with using styles.

Of course, jamming with a few friends is always a nice way to balance things, whether in combination with the arranger, or just playing without accompaniments..

The arpeggiator was used in a lot of music in the 70's and 80's and it's nice to have access to one when recreating tunes from that era.

To me, the arranger itself, is just another tool in the tool kit for keyboard players.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 06-11-2010).]

If you had no laptop, no sequencer (SMF player), or arranger, what keyboard would you take to a gig?

Would it be a piano or an organ in conjunction with a drum machine, or something else?

Ian

I'd bring my Accordion and sing

That should keep the dance floor packed.

chas

Chas, didn't you play the accordion when you were a wee lad?

I can just hear it now...Ladies and Gentleman, it's Giles on the Galanti with his rendition of that famous jazz standard, "If You Can't Live Without Me, Why Weren't You Dead When You Met Me?"

Ian

POLKA BABY!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galanti