Well, Ian, for starters, Yamaha don't make arrangers for pros AT ALL (according to you!), so what is left..? Yes, that's right. Comparison between model lines. And the Yamaha big keyboard arrangers compare quite poorly compared to the Tyros line, and, to be honest, with the PSR line too (at the top end). The only difference is the number of keys (and weight!), but the same end user is who they are designed for (according to you, again). So, I feel I'm pretty much on point in saying that Yamaha DO make big keyboard arrangers, just not good ones. If ALL arrangers are designed for the home, but only the big keyboard Yamaha's suck (comparatively), then that's basically that... Bringing up 'pro' excuses simply does not hold water.

The G70 weighed only four or five pounds more than the G1000, a VERY successful arranger. For all the whining here, hardly a determining factor in its' sales failure. Anyway, as all arrangers are 'home' arrangers, and none of them are designed for pros (who are the only players that regularly need to move their keyboards around much), what does weight have to do with it? The CVP's certainly outweigh the G70 drastically, and it doesn't stop them selling.

But, as hard as high end arrangers are starting to be to find in ANY music store (think of how widely they were distributed 15 years ago), you can hardly claim that overall sales are increasing. If they were popular, a LOT of stores would carry them, and that is just not the case. You work at a store that specializes in them, and have a somewhat colored viewpoint, I fear...

I am sure you would proudly point out that the S910 has FAR more features than an E60... there goes that ill-thought out argument.

Trouble is, if you take your own thoughts seriously (I have my doubts about that!), ALL arrangers from all manufacturers (as I'm sure you would never concede any advantage to any other brand) are made for home users. Therefore, you can compare them ALL directly. And, in that case, the 76 and 88 note home arrangers from Yamaha suck compared to the 76 and 88 note home arrangers from all the other brands..! And they suck compared to the 61 note arrangers made by their own company!

Yamaha don't have it in for pros... they simply have it in for home players of bigger keyboards.

Ha ha...five pounds sure made a lot of difference, didn't it?

One very successful...the other, not so.

Let's hope their next TOTL weighs 5 lbs less again.

Ian

The truth is, G1000 sold in MI stores (lots of them) and the G70 sold in CK stores (hardly any of them)... You don't really need to look any further than that enormous blunder to see why the G70 failed.

One of the main comments at the start of the G70's launch was 'where can I see one?'. Imagine that happening to T3, PA2Xpro, any major arranger... you are likely to see the same failure of sales.

Add to that the unfinished nature of the OS and style voicing, which was remedied by OS2, but the damage had been done. I can't think of a single person that was happy enough with the G1000's weight that found the G70's slight weight increase the deciding factor in not getting one. Cost played a large part in it (G70 was a BIG step up in price), and unavailability, IMO.

How much does a CVP weigh?

Well, a CVP is sold as a home instrument...weight is not a factor.

The biggest complaint I've heard about the G-70, both here on SZ, and elsewhere, is it's weight...it's too heavy, especially in a road case, for the typical one man band person to lug from gig to gig...particularly those doing several shows a day.

Yes, being sold in the wrong stores didn't help either, but here in Canada, it was sold alongside other arrangers, and it still didn't sell very well.

I also don't feel it was supported very well...I didn't see one G-70, or any Roland arranger clinic for that matter, in all the years they were available...I saw lots of RD-series demos, and Juno synth clinics, but no arranger support whatsoever.

Ian

I can hardly believe my eyes... aren't you the guy that claims ALL arrangers are sold as 'home instruments'? You can't have it BOTH ways Either there IS something to a 'pro' factor, or there isn't. If there is, why don't Yamaha address it?

What happened? They put green kryptonite in your Wheaties up there? After the G1000 was a grand success, a few tiny extra pounds, and suddenly, you are all turned into weaklings?!

Thing is, most of the complaining about the G70's weight came from the PSR contingent anyway, or 61 key users. I don't recall anyone who WAS a G1000 fan suddenly turn into a lightweight keyboard fan. As I have pointed out, there are FAR better reasons for how poorly it sold than weight. Those that were hooked on lightweight arrangers weren't using the G1000 anyway. Didn't stop it from being a success...

I still believe that, if Yamaha's were marketed as poorly as the G70 was, you would be looking for other work right now. Perhaps demo-ing Korg's, and deriding anyone that made fun of their weight..!

No doubt they would fail like the G-70/E-80 if they were poorly marketed, but, they weren't and they aren't, and I'm very glad to have been personally involved in the designing and setting up of arranger clinics, and how they are handled...it's kept me busy and happily employed for quite some time.

The more exposure and support given, the more arrangers I sell, and the more work I get doing follow-ups...and the cycle begins again.

Such a simple thing, but apparently, it escaped Roland entirely...perhaps they didn't want to invest in promotion and follow-up...strange, because at one time they did, and I used to do clinics for Roland back when they sold the early E-series.

A large 45 pound arranger (more in a road case) certainly isn't popular with more than one SZ solo arranger performer...I think it is more of a "wisdom" than a "weakling" thing...why drag around an over 50 lb coffin-sized instrument, when there are much lighter, and equally as capable alternatives.

You yourself promoted the G-70 to several SZ people, most of who eventually, sold them (in spite of loving them) to get lighter instruments....so, yes, I'd say the heavy weight played a key factor in it's demise, as well as the poor promotion/marketing/product placement....if it didn't, it certainly helped.

Ian

I think you can have it both ways. The T3 and the S910 are marketed primarily towards home users, but are gig ready.