Thought it might be interesting to see how some of us approach modulating. I think most of us have a few preferred changes we use, but I'd love to her about what others do.

I use two different modulations for the most part.

One is to, in a turnaround, come off the 1 chord and pivot off of a 5 chord in the next highest key.

Ex: IN the key of C, pivot off a Ab chord and modulate the tune into the key of Db...

A second one I use is to pivot off a 6 chord and then continue in a new key two steps higher than where you started.

Ex: In the key of C, pivot off an A chord then modulate the tune into the key of D...

...not too sophisticated, but tried and true.

What are your favorites?

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Bill in Dayton

Sometimes, rather than modulating up a semi-tone on the turnaround, I modulate down a semi-tone...using the handy dandy transposer, of course.

Ian

I've been trying to do a ii V in the key that I am modulating to. I have to confess even though I have a solid understanding of transposition, I do use the transposer.

Doesn't a ii V (2 - 5) take you back to the 1?

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Bill in Dayton

I don't think the transpose button has anything to do with what Bill is talking about. That only assists you AFTER you've made the transition. I THINK he means, what changes do you play to transition smoothly from one key to another.

chas

You're right, Chas...I rarely use actual modulations anymore...mainly I use the transpose buttons to achieve them.

Ian

To clarify I'm not so interested in if you use the transpose button or not, but more how would you write it out on a chart for someone to follow you.

Sometimes I play it manually, sometimes I'll use the button.

I do think I have more options if I do it manually.

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Bill in Dayton

Playing in C Major modulating to the key of G Major.

1-End with a C chord then play Am7 D7 -- IIm7 V7

2-End with a C chord then play Bm7 E7-5 Am7 D7-5
IIIm7 VI7-5 IIm7 V7-5 Notice the chromatic bass line

3-End with a C chord then play Am7 Bm7 Bb13 Am7 Ab7
IIm7 IIIm7 bIII13 Im7 bII13

Or simply use the repeat ending that brings you back to the top,
Transposed to the key you are going to. (In this case G Major)

If you have enough imagination (You can hear the changes) the possibilities are limitless.

Although I do use the transpose button at times I try not to use it because there have been times when I got to the next song and forgot to turn it back.

John C.

And the rest of the guys in the band look at you real funny, too! Been there, done that, lol...

Good examples, John-Thanks...


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Bill in Dayton

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by montunoman:
I've been trying to do a ii V in the key that I am modulating to. I have to confess even though I have a solid understanding of transposition, I do use the transposer.
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Doesn't a ii V (2 - 5) take you back to the 1?
____________________________________________
No, because I do the ii V in the new key. For example if I'm C and I want to change to C# I'll do a D#minor and G#dominant.

[This message has been edited by montunoman (edited 05-24-2010).]

Yes that's happened ... FortunatelY not often . . .
The best thing to do is learn the chord changes in the orig and transposed keys ... Sinatra used a lot of subtle transpositions and so does Buble ... Can't give an example of Buble right now * but I believe there is one tune where he goes from Bb to D very nicely ...
* I am writing this on my BB phone while sitting on a balcony overlooking the beach and Atlantic Ocean in Ocean City MD enjoying a cigar and a vodka ... Here for a week long golf trip with 12 other guys
To paraphrase the song - Life is good, God is great, people are crazy

t.

Thanks for this thread Bill.

Nice to have some serious music discussed for a change.

Get a bit fed up of the instrument banter instead of the REAL stuff of music
cheers

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Eddie from Rotherham http://www.music2myears.plus.com

[This message has been edited by eddiefromrotherham (edited 05-25-2010).]

There are just infinite ways of doing it. But certain things work better for certain kinds of music. I mean, if we're talking pop music or country music, half step or full step mods are appropriate and expected. For jazz stuff though the sky is the limit. Just listen to a few of the old pop and bigband arrangements from the 40's, especially those with vocals. The vocal chorus is almost never in the key of the instrumental, and you can find some really neat ways of worming your way around from key to key by studying those.

Some examples, let's say you sing a song in C, for ease of thought. But, for instrumental ride you modulate. Where to? Any key is possible. Everybody knows how to do a whole step or half step mod up. so let's examine choices apart from those.

C to Eb. Well, you can go C, to Fmin, to Bb7, into Eb, just following the circle of fourths. Or, try a walkdown. split bar C to B7 to full bar of Bb7, into Eb.

C to E, just a walkdown from C to B7 to E.

C to F should be pretty easy to come up with, as the keys are in the circle of fourths.

C to F#, C to C#7 halfstep mod into F#.

C to Ab, Half step mod from C to C#, treat that as the 4 chord of Ab, then Eb7 to Ab. Or follow the circle, split bars C to F7 to Bb7maj or min, to Eb7 to Ab. So on and so forth.

There's almost always a musical way to get from one chord to another. If you can't find a chord progression you like, look for melody lines that make sense and suddenly the chords will sound a lot better. Pulling off a successful mod often has as much to do with the right hand melody line choices during the transition. For instance, if you're trying to get from C to A, and you don't want to go down a half step to Bmin to E7 to A, but just going from C to A sounds dumb, then tri to find a melody line in the right hand that makes it work, maybe focusing around an E note during the transition, because E is a shared note in both C major and A major triad. The 3rd of C and the fifth of A, so putting emphasis on that common tone will draw the ear to that and away from the slightly awkward chord pattern.
Or, another way to get from C to A would be C to E to A for chords. And to make it sound smooth and flowing you can play a G in the right hand over the C, a G# over the E7 or E maj, and an A over the new key center. So suddenly your jumps from C to E to A sounds like a nice chromatic line because of what you did in the right hand.

Hope that helps folks think about key changes in new ways.

Also, a few songs were written with modulations (can't name any, top of my head, brain freeze ), but look in your fake book and check the changes, they're usually the best examples of how it's done. Also, occasionally a song will go back to the (modulate DOWNward) original key. You'll need to handle that as well. Other interesting changes; going from major to minor IN THE SAME KEY (as opposed to the relative minor) and vise versa. So many cool things in music that can make a performance sound amateurish or professional. Good topic, Bill. Want even more fun? Go to your keyboard and try out some of the suggestions and approaches provided by Bill, John, Rory, and others. See what seems to work for you on a specific song.

chas

Transposing –

Can you imagine listen to Mack Knife being played/sung without transposing, it would be a bore. The song starts in a low singing range and as it modulates to the higher keys more excitement is added to the band and the singer ends in his strongest key range.

I am, open or correction on this one.

Quote, “C to Eb. Well, you can go C, to Fmin, to Bb7, into Eb, just following the circle of fourths”.

F to Bb is a forth, and Bb to Eb is a fourth but since we are traveling to the I chord Eb then we should not be speaking in terms of distance. F to Bb is a fourth.

Key Eb Eb Fm Gm Ab Bb Cm D half dim. Eb
I IIm IIIm IV V VI VII half dim. VIII

So Bb in the key which we are traveling to, Eb is now called V to I.
The reason I used these terms is because we are talking about a sequence in chords of a selected key. Hence, although we are, in distance, a 4th away Bb should be referred to as the V chord.

There are many who use the cycle of 4ths and 5ths, it’s a good toll but I find it conflicting when talking about chord progressions. When I am teaching or talking about chord progressions the terminology I use will all be connected to the subject I am teaching.

Hey, this does not mean anyone is wrong, it’s just my way of trying to help people understand. I have students that have become confused trying to use the cycle of 4ths and 5ths and the steps of the scale. The books use V going to I. (Scale terms)

IMHO, John C.

Through the responses, a few guys have used these symbols:

"I II III IV V VI VII VIII"


Those correspond to the 8 tones of a major scale, right?

There's also another system of symbols that use (+), (-), (^) and so on...

Can someone review that. I don't see it often but when I do come upon it it always trips me up for a bit.



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Bill in Dayton

Yes, the Roman numerals correspond to the scale degree. Upper case are major, lower case minor. I think "+" augmented, a degree sign is dimished. Flat and shap signs are used too. A bII in the key of C would be a Db major chord.

I hope that helps.

I've always wondered about the Nashville numbers system. Anyone care to explain?

Two songs come to mind:"Beyond the Sea" and "At Last" ... Both songs have the same chord progression but change the key for the 'bridge' and/or 'release' ...
t.

What we use to name the notes are
A B C D E F G

Has anyone heard of a H chord, I ran across the H chord in some German music, I had no idea.

John C.

There are various articles on the German H chord. This one might amuse (or confuse )
http://www.guitarsite.com/newsletters/010122/12.shtml

Johnw

Thanks for that John,
not sure that it matters whether german musicians write H or B...don't know of any modern german composers ...they only write waltzes and oompahs anyway..(waits for flack!)

You must not have heard death metal polka music yet, then, Eddie...

Anyway, you can't write a fugue on the name Bach without an 'H' in the scale, can you..?

Used to modulate all the time, but as I got older...Seriously, folks, as Rory said, there are all kinds of methods to transition between keys, but, when I'm playing on the fly, the easiest "turn-around" that always works and puts you 1/2 step higher is, say, when you're in F, use C# sharp as a passing chord, then back to F#. With the proper drum "sweetening"... either a live drummer or the right drum break on an arranger, it breaks the boredom, is borderline dramatic if "sold" but is not too intrusive for, say dinner jobs.

Russ (wonder why my hair fell out) Lay

[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 05-28-2010).]

For "Unforgettable" after ending on the "C" chord, I would play Am7 to D7 to resolve back to the "GM7".

Hey, Bruno123 this works much better:
2-End with a C chord then play Bm7 E7-5 Am7 D7-5 back to "GM7"
Even without the b5th's it sounds much better.

When I get a chance, I will practice the turn-around using the b 5th’s. I use them quite a bit on many other tunes. Discussions like this one are what I like about the forum. Sharing knowledge. I love chord theory.

Every body knows that my Korg i30 is the best keyboard ever built. So, what is the big fuss all about who has the best keyboard anyway? Ha! Ha!
This should rumple some feathers. Where is Uncle Dave? Get in on this Dave I sure miss our old squabbles!

A slight twist to my original question:

Do you ever transpose from a major to a minor key or vice/versa?

I can't think of a single example of when I'd do that.

I imagine its more suited to a long-form jazz or classical piece, more so than a pop or country tune.

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Bill in Dayton

Begin the Beguine

"Every time we say goodbye" ------------'but how strange, the change, from major to minor'.

Fleeting, but still, an example.

chas

I'd thought of that, but its written into the actual score. I was trying to think of another tune that I'd do that manually to...

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Bill in Dayton

Arthur's Theme (The Best That You Can Do), written by Christopher Cross, Burt Bacharach, and Carole Bayer Sager. A fourth writing credit goes to Australian songwriter Peter Allen, goes from a minor to major...beautiful song as well.

Ian

Sorry, Bill. Just read your initial post, and I mentioned the same simple turn-around as you.

Russ (pay attention, dummy) Lay

What is the repeat ending you are refering to?

And also... I noticed that the Ending buttons on my PSR-3000 are labeled "ending/rit.". What does "rit." means?

Thanks!

Press one of the ENDING/rit. [I]–[III] buttons during Style playback. You can have the ending gradually slow down
(ritardando) by pressing the same ENDING/rit. button again while the ending is playing back.

Hmmm... I'm familier with this option, and even use it quite often. I've discovered it few years ago when playing with my PSR-630.
Nice to know eventually what it means. Thanks!

Just curious, but do those of you that use the transpose button for half or whole step modulations tend to play the modulation, then hit transpose at the start of the new section, or do you hit the transpose a bar before to catch the turnaround? I would imagine timing is fairly critical doing that...

Funny, I was wondering the same thing.

chas

Weirdly, I get to answer my own question (in a way)!

I am in a band, and the bass player/singer has decided to do a weird version of Mack the Knife where he modulates up EVERY SINGLE VERSE for about six verses or more (if you count solos)! Crazy, I know, but that's what he wants to do...

Even though it's real band, the procedure and timing is the same. I hit the transpose a bar BEFORE the new verse, play a ii-V in the old key, but it comes out as the lead to the new key. Works pretty well, but if he goes crazy and does more than five key changes, I have to eventually modulate (my G70 will only go up 5 half steps).

If he keeps doing more than that on a regular basis, I might start to transpose DOWN a few steps before we start, and play in a higher key, and that will give me more steps before I run out of keys!

It's not something I usually do, but it stops this one getting completely crazy. Doesn't help with things like Down in Brazil, by Michael Franks, which is basically a cycle of ii-V's through the entire twelve keys, though!

Strange. My C1 will do +6/-6, Fantom G7 will do +6/-5, and the Korg PA1x pro will do +11/-11, Tyros 2 will do +12/-12.

Conclusion, get a Yammy .

chas

I have a couple of these..+/- five octave range..
Now that's a transpose..

Isn't that the 'standard' version? .. like by Bobby Darin? ... I do the first 2 verses in 'G' then modulate on each following verse .. I stay on 'Bb' for a solo and repeat the last verse so that I end in the key of C... but I am actually PLAYING the key changes, ... If I want the 'full blown Darin version I use a midi file and play piano over the top ... still playing all the key changes ...
I think not using the modulations makes the song very bland ...

t.

The band leader that I played with for 20 years until his death used to write a lot of medleys and I would have to modulate between the various songs in the medley. One of the modulations he used to use he called the "We want Cantor" modulation. I guess it had something to do with Eddie Cantor. I'm too young to remember him but it was a four bar modulation. It went like this way in the key of C:

Old key - C
C Am Dm G7
New Key - F (no chuckles here)
F Dm Gm7 C7

On this modulation I would sometimes substitute a Eb9 for the Am.

Tom

Thing is, Tony, he doesn't stay on ANY key for more than one verse. Not even the first. Darin's version has two verses in the original key, then five 1/2 step transpositions and the end. No solos, no nothing. My guy just keeps going, and going, and going! You never know HOW many times he's going to keep modulating...

As I noted earlier, though, I normally don't use the t'pose button (I've been playing for donkeys years before there ever WERE transpose buttons!) and have played this one many many times before, but this thread kind of made me think about the issue, and that's why I tried it that way...