All valid comments that I have, in fact, pondered through the years. I'll apologize in advance for the length, but you've hit upon some things I've really weighed over the last few years.

*Remember, the kind of clients that use us are ballroom dance groups. They hire us for our consistency, variety and quality. The other bands on this circuit are mostly comprised of players 70+ and up. (The oldest guy in my band is 57, then we have a 52 yr. old, a 49 yr. old (moi)and a 47 yr. old.)We are, by far I'm told, the most energetic band playing this kind of music.

*Part of the frustration through the years has been difficulty in finding quality subs/potential replacements. Drummers I can find, but bass players? No luck in 11+ years of looking. Rock, jazz, country players struggle mightily playing the way we need to for these dancers. They seem not to "get it." The best sideman I've EVER used was a terrific pedal steel player who is a monster. Played on the road with Marty Robbins, did Hee Haw, was in Barbara Mandrells TV band, etc. Unreal player. His main love is Gospel and bluegrass-so he's not interest whatsoever coming on board full time. It also colors almost everything in a Country fashion, which I don't really want.

*Our audiences / clients are thrilled with the band. We draw the best crowds, keep the dance floor filled more than others, and are almost always the first band to get dates for the new year. By that measure-it is clearly not broken. Further, one of the things that's always impressed me was how each member of this band has connected with several members of our crowd. Everyone seems to know us on a first name basis. The affection that we're each shown is genuine and to mess with that, could be counter-productive.

*To your final paragraph. The guys do want to be there. They are professional, rarely cause any trouble, and are generally compliant. They will play new stuff, but as I described in previous posts/threads, with no rehearsals-its a pretty limited approach we can take. Very straightforward. Playing the tune 1-2 a month means that it won't really start to sound good to my ears until 4-6 months of playing it. The crowd, it seems has such a high level of confidence in us that no matter what we play, they'll dance to it.

*Again per my previous posts, that doesn't mean I'm not terribly frustrated when working with the band. (They know this.) Back in the the early 2000's, the band gigged about 100 times a year, which is phenomenal for this kind of band in this area. We're down to about two dozen jobs. Why? Economics explain a lot of it, most clubs aren't as packed as they were ten years ago and most have cut way back on their entertainment budgets. The State has severely changed the way they allow these Clubs to handle their receipts from gambling/pull tickets/etc. which also cut their expendable cash. Several major Clubs have in fact, closed up shop.

*One by one, I have converted most of the old band accounts into Duo jobs where I use arranger mode and my sax player. The dance floor is just as packed, I make more money, the clients pay less overall and I like them a lot more musically. Some of the accounts were ones where 2 of the guys said they didn't want to drive that far (about an hour) anymore. I told them if I switched to my Duo, I wouldn't turn back...and I haven't...and won't.

*I gave great consideration to ending the band this year and only doing solo/duo work. In the end, two major factors convinced me to do another year.

1) One of the other players and myself mostly resolved an issue a few months ago that was very important to me. He had to swallow some pride or leave the band. He decided his one axe wasn't worth over $5,000 a year in income.

2) (The main reason...) I talked to several long term clients and fans who I trust to be honest with me. I laid it out for them, shared my frustrations and ideas on fixing my problems with the quartet. (Changing to a Duo) To a person they all said that dancing wise, the Duo would be absolutely fine-no issues there at all, but that for over a decade, they and their partners so looked forward to a night with the Bill Corfield Band. They feel a bond with us and I respect that. For years I have been sincerely touched by watching these nice people get dressed up and go out to the club and dance with each other like they have for several decades. I see the glances, the embraces, etc. and it deserves respect. We've seen many couples stop coming because of illness and death, which has been a shame regardless of how inevitable I know it is.

*So...switch to the Duo and feel much better musically but lose something in the room because I've left half my guys at home? Not sure I'm prepared to explain why to these dancers I needed to make a change. Also, in spite of the musical limitations I hate, the guys have been very loyal. They have represented me very well over the years and I'm just not ready to kick them to the curb.

*To close, for me-its about everything EXCEPT money, Diki. I make less money when working with the band than on any kind of gig I do. $100 in my pocket after a 3 -4 hour job is by far my worst payday anywhere on my schedule. Ironically, this Saturday, I WILL use my Duo for the first time at our main account. (Bass player has to be out of State.) I'm very interested in seeing how this goes because at some point, I will drop the band and convert to a Duo. I'm sure I will be asked a dozen times or more where the other guys are.

If it sounds a bit sappy, well, then it does.



[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 01-06-2010).]

Good post, Bill. Not a bit 'sappy.' As I mentioned earlier, we have to cut our cloth to suit our needs and each and every one of us has our own realities that we operate under. Good luck with your duo, Bill.

Lucky says.....I didn't know there was any other kind! (not talking about THIS group, of course)

Follow up on the gig from Saturday night.

Background: Using the Duo for the first time in this club I've used the band at for over ten years. Looking forward to the liberated music possibilities but leery of the push back for not having all the guys with me. How would this turn out?

Arrived at the club at 7:00pm for an 8:00pm start. Weather conditions were something like 8 degrees, which is NOT conducive to seeing a large turnout. At 7:45, one couple came up and asked where the other guys were. I explained and they seemed fine, said they were looking forward to how it sounded.

By 8:00pm, the Club was filling up and we started. Filled up the first set with several of the stock requests we have and as expected, dance floor filled up rather quickly. Played several "non band" tunes throughout the set, all of which they dance to. About 40 minutes into the set, a long time couple approached the band stand and commented, "You sound amazing tonight...whatever you've done-its fabulous!"

On the break, talked to the door staff and bartenders-all were hearing good comments. By the start of the 2nd set, place was at a normal crowd level.

Did several newer tunes through the rest of the night, plus many of their favorites...I saw several people more physically responding to the music. One guy, in his 90's was playing piano on his table, lol. More dancers came up during the set and said, in effect..."We love your band, Bill-but this is really, really good."

Made one screw up during the last set. I have 2 versions of Sway I perform. One slow Bossa and an upbeat, balls out mambo. I thought let's try the fast one for a change and while we got a big round of applause after we finished it, no one danced to it. Lesson learned, lol...This is not a hot, latin crowd, lol...

We were done at 11:00pm. Typically, the crowds head for the doors en masse at 10:30pm and we wrap things to about 25 people. Tonight, no one seemed to leave. I can't remember the last time there were so many people staying to the end. One of the Women's Auxiliary ladies came up and said she'd never seen this many people here, this late on any Saturday night. The circle for God Bless America at 11:00pm was so large it barely fit on this very large dance floor.

Afterwards, several couples stopped by and were very generous with their praise. When checking out at the bar after everyone left, the feedback was it sounded fantastic, the crowd loved the different tunes, etc. Repeated that everyone loves your band, but wow...people really had a great time tonight.

In all, I was asked a total of two times where the other guys were. (I did make a quick announcement early in the night.) AS luck would have it, one of the other bands that plays here regularly decided to leave Dayton and head for the South. If I'm reading the lay of the land right, My Duo is a strong candidate to take some of those dates. So, in effect, I'll get to have my cake and eat it too.

To be as frank as possible, I can't remember feeling that great driving home from this account...ever. I wasn't restricted by a lack of rehearsal and could play anything I wanted to. It felt fantastic...

Was I more or less "musical" that night. More because I wasn't restricted by the band or less because I utilized the arranger mode so much more? (No midi files at all-worked with styles all night.) I'm not sure and I'm not sure its important, either. I lost a little here/gained a little-maybe a lot-there. Dancers danced just as much, if not more, I felt great, client was very happy, etc. The only possible downer was my sideman, who is a traditionalist who would always chose a full quartet over what I do. On the other hand, I thought he played better than usual, so...

One night doesn't change much. I'd be a jerk to throw the guys off the account at this point for the rest of the year. We'll see what the future holds...

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Bill in Dayton

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 01-11-2010).]

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[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 01-11-2010).]

Shame you didn't try substituting different players instead of the arranger... It would be interesting to hear how your enjoyment of the gig changed with some fresh players and a new attitude. Your arranger doesn't really add or subtract anything HUMAN to the equation.

Plus, I'd not get to worked up about a crowd enjoying themselves 'just as much' with just automatic backing rather than the real deal... Quite honestly, were you to do a complete DJ act and pick your recorded material as carefully, you might get close to the same reception..!

Which might beg the question... Why are we playing at all? For them, or for US..? Most of them don't care much one way or the other, as long as they have a good time. But US? Maybe you feel differently, but I got into music to PLAY music (not play a CD player!), and with as many great musicians as I could. Be careful about being so happy that the arranger 'entertained' the crowd. Because the next logical step is a CD 'entertaining' the crowd. And that opens you up to people with no skills whatsoever other than the ability to play a songlist that the audience wants (and anyone can copy yours just by attending one show) being able to come in and undercut you...

As I said in an earlier post, I don't know of any qualified bass players who would've been able to handle the gig. I've seen several different guys come in...rock guys / jazz guys, etc. the feel wasn't right, drummer wasn't happy...Try as I might, we couldn't get the right dance feel for this crowd. Remember, this is people 60+. They're pretty firm on what they'll dance to and what they won't.



You make it sound it like I punched a button and then sat back and had a smoke, lol. They also, have tried DJ's for these dances and none have worked out. These people want...in some fashion...musicians. In their minds, DJ's aren't musicians.

I sang every song...I played every song and the facility with which I play my arranger proved highly effective. I was really playing and really singing and really working the crowd and really picking the songs, etc. Certainly I played differently than I do with my band, no doubt about it.



Your comments based on my last post are almost funny. My recollection of Saturday night is that I entertained the crowd, while using an arranger kb and my sax player. What's better? A highly skilled kb player using an arranger and getting quite a bit out of it or a very predictable band that while very effective, isn't scoring real high on the freshness scale?

I played my ass off Saturday...and for a change, I could present these tunes as I prefer them, for the most part. The difference between what I do and turning on a CD player is profound.


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Bill in Dayton

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 01-11-2010).]

Bill
Maybe you should invite Diki and his communicating, interacting musicians to fill in for you some night and see what happens with your regular dance crowd.

Look it seems that others are as determined to miss MY points as they think I miss theirs...

Next logical step is the sax player playing to tracks, and singing (got a few that do that, here), then the next step is a singer using tracks including a sax track, and then the NEXT step is a DJ.... I kind of assumed you might see the progression.

Of course, it's OK for YOU to get indignant that your contribution to their evening's enjoyment might have got downplayed a bit, but try looking at it from your drummer's, or your guitarist's or your bass player's perspective... Their contribution got nixed in its' entirety. But, of course, what YOU play is the ONLY important part, isn't it..? Those other parts can get replaced, no problem, eh? No musical value in it, at all.

You see, it's all fun and games until someone suggests that YOU are as replaceable as your other musicians. Then all hell breaks loose! But, instead of looking for every specious argument to justify your own contribution (no attempt to acknowledge that I DID say that a DJ to do the gig would have to be as good as you at selecting material for your crowd), and a hare brained attempt to put ME down by suggesting that I couldn't do the gig, which I'll admit, unless you had charts, I couldn't, as I don't play that kind of music (but I did, at many ballrooms in England in my youth in ten piece bands... OTOH, you'd fall as flat on your face as me were you to try to do a gig doing the music I do - I doubt you've even HEARD or Sly and Robbie, or Black Uhuru ), perhaps a serious attempt to talk about the issues could have occurred...

But, I guess, to suggest that a keyboard player is as replaceable as a drummer is some kind of blasphemy, here at the bastion of replacing everyone else! Trouble is, we are... Heck, half of us are only too happy to DJ a gig, mp3 players being the hot, must have items in our arrangers these days. And there was I, thinking arrangers are actually a musical instrument! Silly me...

My basic premise wasn't intended to YOU personally, Bill. I am sure you put on a hell of a show, everyone leaves happy, yada yada yada... But, on a thread that started out as a reflection by some that arranger playing no longer gets their juices flowing, and a discussion about whether playing live can get some of that back, to basically crow about how well your gig went WITHOUT your regular players kind of begs the extrapolation, IMO.

You say that no DJ has succeeded with your crowd so far... all well and good, Apparently, no other live band has, either. But do your show with an arranger and a sax player, all is well. Strikes me that material, familiarity with exactly what the crowd wants is what is scoring, here. Which, I'm afraid, definitely brings up the possibility that, should a DJ appear that DOES do the job, or a singer with tracks (let's face it, are you saying that, if push comes to shove and you can't play any more, you WOULDN'T do the gig just with tracks if they asked you?) came in and knew your crowd, what is there but simply a change of DEGREE in going down from a full band to a duo, then a solo, then a DJ?

I'm NOT singling you out here, Bill. This is an issue that has long worried me, watching full bands gradually get squeezed out, now watching even duos get squeezed out, even soloists getting replaced by DJ's and cheap karaoke acts. Once a venue realizes it CAN make money by cutting the entertainment budget, few choose not to...

Imagine what you would have to say to your regular guys, that have stuck by you for years (as much as you think you are carrying THEM!), if the venue turns round and says they would prefer to just have the duo from now on, due to cost. Now imagine it being said to YOU, were a DJ to succeed with your crowd...

You see the slippery slope, here?

Where your theory breaks down in this instance is that I'm not suggesting alternate types of entertainment couldn't work. I'm just saying from playing at this club for 11 years, I can say that it hasn't worked, at least not yet.

Several years ago my drummer pulled me aside and said "Look, if you're not here, this doesn't work. You're the thing...your voice, the way you play, your ways onstage, etc. You can plug in other guys around you and you can still pull it off but you're the reason these people are here."

I've been playing arrangers for 5-6 years. It was 2 years, I think, before I began to use the arranger based duo as a replacement for the 4 piece. I did so only when the 2 guys (Bass/Drummer) informed me they didn't want to drive an hour or didn't want to play on certain nights of the week. Rather than lose the account myself as I'm the only one who does this for a living, I switched to the Duo. I didn't initiate that-they did. This is my business, so it only made sense...



Assumptions...You had no way of knowing this but I've actually opened up for Black Uhuru, Steel Pulse, the Clash, and several other very different type bands back in the early 80's. The band I was in back then was the "go to" band in Pittsburgh when someone wanted a local act to open up for a big act like them. We were an original based ska/funk/rock band that toured through PA, OH, MI, IN, WV, MIN, IL...I've also done Commercials work (jingles) as well as several professional productions of various Musicals back in the 80's. I also played bass and sang lead in a Trio I formed in the late 80's, that also played originals. (Think REM meets English Beat)I've been really lucky that I've got to do a lot of very different things musically. Point being, while I wouldn't excel at it like you do...I don't think I'd fall flat on my face...

It isn't just what songs I played...what DJ in the world will sing as their main thing? None...they have karaoke a few Fridays a month, and an entirely different crowd shows up. A DJ/KJ can't do what I do and I surely don't want to do what they do...

I said I knew of no other bass players that could do the gig. Is there a player in Dayton I don't know about that might do great? Sure, but with the poor results from previous attempts to use a sub, I'm not dying to go down that road.



Not trying to put anyone down here but I've never taken a DJ job since I started this full time. I'm not set up for it and don't really want to do that.



You seem to be minimizing the experience the audience had. You base most of your comments on a players perspective. That's fine, but it needs to be pointed out.

Why is an instance where a arranger player becomes liberated from dropping other live musicians any less applicable to the original thread? I've chronicled my frustrations with the band being unable/unwilling to rehearse, etc. If it works one way, can't it also work in this other way as well?



Of the various other acts that rotate through the schedule over recent years, there is another band that is very well regarded. A 5 pc., where the youngest guy is in his mid 70's...

Familiarity isn't what's scoring...I played 12-16 songs they've never heard me perform and they danced to all of them. In general, yes, I stayed within a certain parameter...Its not like I threw some Lady Gaga at them, lol...

Would I do the gig just singing over backing tracks? Seriously, no I wouldn't. I had major, major reservation about even buying an arranger because of how it might look. I never wanted to be one who would kick in a midi file and basically become irrelevant to the tune. My crowds respect people who can play. So, as I learned how to perform with an arranger, I made sure I stayed away from midis. I want them to know that I'm playing every chord change, lead, etc. Do I have a helluva lot of help? No question about it.

The biggest difference to me would be found going from a Solo to a DJ...



You're right to be concerned. The band and I had a client about an hour from here where we played every month for years to big crowds and packed dance floors. Trouble is, this crowd doesn't drink much at all. So, the Clubs get next to no bar business. After an annual election, the Trustees decided that there wouldn't be any more Senior dances on Fridays. They would bring in younger rock bands to beef up the bar business. Funny thing is, though-they couldn't match the competition in their city on Friday nights and the turnout was way less than expected. They then tried to put all the old acts back on the schedule and get the old people to return. They pissed off so many people, that it was never as good as it was originally. The only complain they had was that the bar sales weren't good enough. What was I to do about that?



I've thought about that a lot. I've been getting advice here at the SZ from some friends to drop the band and don't look back. You don't seem impressed that I've put up with a less than thrilling musical situation just so the band can stay together. I could've switched to a Duo a few years ago, very likely succeeded, but I didn't. In the big picture, that deserves to be at least mentioned.

If the client said they needed to go to a duo for financial reasons, I'd argue that the band should get to finish out the year. Possibly negotiate a lower price within reason. I'd also ask the guys what they wanted to do. They know its coming...its just a matter of how long do I continue to use the band. When it does, there will be several factors why its come to an end after 11-12 years or so. Economics will be a large part of it as this dwindling, non bar spending crowd shrinks. There will be creative reasons, that I've cited as well.

With no disrespect meant towards DJ's, they can't do what I do. They may get the gig someday, but that doesn't change anything except I'll either find a different room to play for or I'll enjoy my family.

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Bill in Dayton

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 01-12-2010).]

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 01-12-2010).]