I heard a guy play an arranger the other evening, and he used the sustain pedal on a trumpet voice, and then a Sax voice...

Some people should not be allowed to have them.

Ian,

I agree. And, like a number of arranger performers, I do not use a sustain pedal--even whey playing piano. Some folks use them--some folks don't!

Gary

I just found another couple of pennies, so I'll say a little more...
Diki - I'm really surprised at you. This is the first time in a long time that I've read you being so pontifical. C'mon now, it's only a silly pedal. Let it go. We get your point, but it's an optional thingy with me on the job. Anyway it makes the front of my arranger look too messy. So there...

But to continue, I almost always used a sustain pedal with the G70. And I obviously use the built in pedals on my digital keyboards. Maybe it's just something about playing a smaller keyboard... whatever it is, it is.

So, because you MIGHT overuse it, you choose instead to UNDER use it?

Seems an awful lot like cutting off your nose to spite your face. This just seems like one of those issues
that, rather than bother to learn how to use something properly, you chose to not use it at all,
despite how that might negatively impact you. By the same logic, those not using style mode very well
ought to not have arrangers in the first place?

Heck, why even have keys on your arranger? You MIGHT hit a wrong note!

In my case, the piano is the least used voice on my keyboard. I use the growl and sweet tenor sax a lot, several guitars, harmonica, flutes, strings, brass, trumpet, lots of neat things other than the grand piano. When I do use the piano, more often than not, I have it layered with strings, which IMO, provides a lot of depth and quality.

Beneath the keyboard are two foot switches, one for the Harmony-M and one for the keyboard. Most of the time the one connected to the keyboard is set to harmony/echo, which is sometimes used for the piano voices.

It's not that I don't know how, when, or cannot use the sustain, most of the time I just don't feel the need to use it.

Cheers,

Gary

Can someone tell me how you finger a jump of say an octave and a half (common with saxes and many other
sounds) smoothly without a pedal?

Just curious...

Look, it's possible to mess up a simple horn line by playing two notes at a time. But I don't hear a general
call to make all sax sounds monophonic. You simply learn to play legato cleanly. That way, if you DO want
two sax voices, you are not stymied. I am starting to
get quite amazed at how willing some of us are to restrict what we can play to make screwing up harder..

Like I said, SOME people hit the wrong notes, but mysteriously, you don't say 'get rid of the keys'! But
some people use the sustain poorly, and it's 'get rid of the sustain'... Why not simply learn to USE IT PROPERLY..!

This is NOT directed at Donny, Gary or anyone. This is just my approach and some background on how I approached using an arranger kb several years ago.

I had never touched an arranger until one day about 5 years ago. I was blown away by its capabilities. Up until then my performances consisted of me using a digital piano and adding some strings at times. I also sang. As silly as this may sound to some, I had major reservations about being considered legitimate if I went the arranger route. I talked to other kb players in the area and my hometown of Pittsburgh about their thoughts on it. I talked to several long term clients as well as long term audience members.

I knew there were guys who used midi files behind a big impressive keyboard but hardly played it. Other musicians, clients and yes even audience members at nursing homes could tell they weren't playing but in the end they liked them anyway. They would call them "cheesy" and that wasn't for me.

The basic feedback I got across the board was that as long as they could still tell I was playing piano, the accmp. parts wouldn't take anything away. As long as I wasn't using it as a crutch, they felt it would be great.

So, from day 1, I use piano as my main rhythym instrument. During the average one hour show, I'll turn all the accmp OFF totally on a few tunes and play a ballad or hymn just to provide some contrast and depth to my performance. For me, a sustain pedal is critical to play the way I know how to play.

I don't use Midi files, mp3 files, OTS, etc. I use piano as my #1 instrument, usually strings/pad in #2 and a solo instrument like sax or trumpet in #3. I ride a style. I also modulate and sub in other solo instruments to keep it fresh. I've tried the other ways, I don't feel comfortable whatsoever and honestly feel very cheesy doing it that way.

So, as my anchor instrument is a piano and I'm a piano player/vocalist it all makes sense to me and my audiences.

If I didn't use piano as my main instrument and tried using a sax or a flute, well, that's pushing it too far for my money. I don't want there to be any doubt that there's a musician performing for you and its not just the technology dazzling you in some way that you can no longer tell if he's playing or not. I'm playing every chord through every song and you know what-If the power dies-"the show goes on!"

Frankly, I don't think a performer who uses a mp3 or a midi file is as legit as someone who doesn't rely on such a significant contribution to perform the basic nuts & bolts of as song. You're moving towards a karaeoke kind of presentation that I have no interest in.

I know there's guys here who do just that and god bless them. There's more than one way to skin a cat and if they can pull it off, that's great.

A few years ago there was a new guy in the Dayton/CBus area trying to get into nursing homes. His promo stuff said he was a keyboard player and singer. Some of the places tried him out and he bombed. Why? Because all he knew how to do was to fire nice sounding midi files via his kb. He couldn't play. Audiences watched him never play the keys and within a month he was toast.

Again, everyone's comfort zone is different. Hopefully this explanation helps everyone understand where I'm coming from on the sustain thing.

Oh, what the hell is a "Power Single?"

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Bill in Dayton

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 10-19-2009).]

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 10-19-2009).]

Bill - what you say is exactly what I expect to hear from you. Knowing you and how you play, you are spot on in your self-description. One thing you didn't mention that I know about your playing is that you use the full keyboard and full kbd chord recognition in most of your playing. As a pianist, that makes mighty sense to me. But not being a pianist, I can't successfully use that technique and I don't usually use a sustain pedal for my piano "playing." I have never purported to be a solo pianist and feel I am only adequate on a piano keyboard. The arranger keyboard, for me, is usually in split mode, so soloing a piano part is a much different task than it is for you. You play your arranger mostly like a piano - good for you. I don't and the way I do use it usually does not call for a sustain pedal. When I had my G70, I was more inclined to play pianistically - even with a short split, but the smaller 61-note requires I use the split most of the time.

I'm liking this 'sustain pedal' discussion because it is giving me insight into different players' techniques. I'm just wondering... what the hell does this have to do with organizing my cables?

ps - I can hear ya now, good buddy. I'm ready for your comeback.

"Comeback?"

Huh?

...I should add that I'm not ruling out modifying my approach in the future as my audiences get younger and have different musical tastes. My youngest audiences are asking for stuff from the 60's, which is fairly easy to pull off. In a few years when people are asking for lots of stuff from the 70's and 80's, it may be different. Pop music was written differently in the 80's than before it. More lines and riffs were used as opposed to standard chording patterns.

I've said this before but I'll say it again, trying to play some of the riff based pop hits may force me to explore new techniques. Some of the big hits from Duran Duran, the Police, Rush, Van Halen, who knows what don't sync up real well with current day styles...

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Bill in Dayton

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 10-19-2009).]

The term "Power Single" in our business refers to a person who plays solo, w/ vocals but also commands the sound of a band in a way that can easily fill bigger gig venues vs just a solo piano, guitar alone or background restaurant player, lounge act, eg: Weddings, Dinner dances,Dance Clubs, etc, etc, or anything a Band or DJ could fill "By Yourself". This lets potential hiring clients categorize you vs other acts when booking work.