Hi guys.

Just wondering if any of you have any funny stories you would like to share about some sales people you had to deal with in a music shop at some point. Maybe even someone you felt like knocking out with a punch for their totally stupidity.

The closest I ever came to doing that was when I was playing a workstation I was interested in buying (had the money in my pocket) the sales guy walks over to me and says ....

I was expecting, Sir can I help you... but no, he said hey don't touch that, it's expensive.

Regards
James

Ohhh man where to start on this topic I can't even count the number of dumb sales people I've run into. Actually I take back the word dumb.., and to be more fair., would say "inexperienced" better suits it. Some of these music stores can't find keyboard sales reps and you often find a drummer or guitarist trying to sell you a keyboard. Store owners at times put these guys in a tough spot.

Ok..., let's see. Walked into a very nice store (mom and pop store). They actually had some decent keyboards on display. I went to test one out and was stopped in my tracks by the person working. They guy went on to say "these are very expensive and we ask that customers do not touch them". I laughed soooo hard at this guy. I said "You've got to be kidding me..., how in the heck do you expect to sell a keyboard if a customer can't walk in and play the bloody thing to see if they like it"? He told me "We have a keyboard guy that'll demo them for you". I said OK.., well can he show me a few of the boards. His response.., well our guy is only in once every two weeks..., and I'm not a keyboard player. I laughed at him again and just walked out the door.

I had a guy at Guitar Center trying to demo a Fantom X8 for me. Another classic example of a guitar player who wasn't where he ws supposed to be. This guy was so clueless. I had to show him where the power button was. Not only that he kept calling it an "arranger workstation" and thought the entire arp section was styles with auto accomp. To top it off..., (I'll call this guy an idiot in this case).., he was so clueless that he said "All this great sound is coming from the onboard speakers that project the sound out the rear of the keyboard". This nut had no idea the sound was coming from the really nice keyboard amp on the floor! Ahhhhh.., I had a good laugh with this clown.

I went into a music store out of town one time and asked it they had any arranger keyboards. First I had to explain to the 19-year old expert what an arranger was.
The guy says "oh those are for kids and beginners, WE pros use synthesizers."
I smiled and said "you mean you "pros" who work in music stores and have to wait on us beginners who play music full time for a living?
'Nuff time wasted with that guy, but that's the attitude a lot of them take.
It's not that they are dumb, it's that they are ignorant.
DonM

A year ago this coming Columbus Day Holiday weekend, my wife and I were in NYC and we decided to stop by Sam Ash's Manhattan location.
Tyros 3 had just been introduced,Frankieve had one in stock, but even though we about drove by the front door of his store we could not stop by until a couple of days later on the return trip.

Upon entering the Sam Ash store a sales guy asked me could I help you. I said yea I want to look at arrangers what do you have. He ushered us into the room with the arrangers. I took a quick look around and asked where's the Tyros3, He repsonded Yamaha doesn't make a Tyros3, but I do have latest Tyros2 and also the original Tyros. I replied sorry sir, but Tyros 3 has just been released. This guy insisted no Tyros 3, the more he insisted the more I said check your computer and inventory. By this time I'm pretty disgusted, my wife tells me she's embarassed because I'm in a litte contest about the availibity of T3. She walks out of the store, the sales rep comes back and says gee, they do make one. We have one in our Los Angeles store..............See ya and walked out of the store. BTW the store itself was disappointing, not what I expected from a giant like Sam Ash.



[This message has been edited by Stephenm52 (edited 09-30-2009).]

Oops triple post.

[This message has been edited by Stephenm52 (edited 09-30-2009).]

Double post

[This message has been edited by Stephenm52 (edited 09-30-2009).]

I stopped by a store owned by a friend; actually, I loaned him some money years ago to open the business.

I had gotten a bill for some charged items and wanted to drop off a check. The dumb-ass kid told me he needed an ID before he could accept a check. I tried to tell him that this check was not for a purchase, but to pay a bill (I even had the statement attached). Didn't matter.

I told the kid his dumb ass attitude was going to cost the store $10,000.00. I sent copies of my purchases from other stores to the owner, and he fired the kid on site.

Payback is SWEET!


Russ

Stupid like a fox! My friend who died 5 years ago was the owner of the most successful music store in the city. He was a big band trumpet player. He, his wife and the owners of the other two popular music stores all worked together for 10 years at a large local store. When they started their stores, they all agreed to divide up the business. My friend did not stock and sell horns; he specialized in guitars and PA. His one friend did horns and the other specialized in keyboards. Thing is, he never learned a thing about stringed instruments. He would take an instrument down, run a had across the strings without touching the neck and say....WONDERFUL!, and hand the instrument to the customer. In 40 years, he never learned more, but what a salesman!

I ordered a red Guild hollow body. He called and said the thing was in. When I went to pick it up, it was sunburst. When I called that to his attention, he said, "I don't think so. That's a new Guild red." Then, he took me and the guitar over to a window and turned it several times to let the sunlight bounce off of it. Damn if he didn't convince me that it was some kind of proprietary red.

Two days later, the red one came in. I kept the sunburst one, played it for 40 years, and at his funeral, his son told the tale of his dad, the GREAT SALESMAN and Russ's red guitar!

I took it back to the store, where, for a year, it hung on a hook in the most visible place there, with a sign saying "Russ's famous red guitar".

Dumn salesman or dumn customer? You decide!


Russ (colorblind) Lay

[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 09-30-2009).]

While we continue to expect internet direct prices from brick and mortar stores, what right have we to expect knowledgeable and experienced salesmen? Where is the margin to pay them what they are worth...?

Personally, I NEVER go into a music store expecting any pertinent information from a pimply faced slacker doing the job to get guitar strings cheaper than retail

I educate myself online, and simply go to the store to listen to how it SOUNDS as I play it. That is the only information I can't get from the web. I can hear how it sounds when someone else plays it online, but that rarely covers all its' soundset or style library, or how the keys feel, or how quick the OS responds... And I sure don't need some kid to tell me that!

Were we willing to pay a little extra at a brick and mortar store for qualified sales staff, there would be a lot less of these stories. But hey, who needs that when you can save $20 or so...

Lets face it .."the way it was" is NO MORE regarding music retail stores.......it's every man for himself out here when you buy things....all I can suggest is "An Educated Consumer" is YOUR Best Weapon!!....Good luck.

This, of course, from the guy that actually BOUGHT almost every arranger made, to 'educate' himself...

Dicki dont worry what I do with MY money...watch your own wallet. Sorry I'm not perfect in every way like you!

I'm lucky here...I get Internet (or better) price and a knowledgable sales staff with the ability to demo anything they have in stock with no obligation to buy it.I however do not take advantage of this/them, I do my homework and am pretty sure (other than auditioning) that I want it before I ask to play it.

I just call them, tell them what I'm interested in, they say sure come on over we will pull it from stock if it's not out and we can set you up to play it for as long as you need to.

Sweeeeet!
Lee S.

Donny, I really don't care if you give all your money to the Hari Krishna's...

But we might care that you don't even take your own advice, so freely dispensed to others...

BTW, thanks to me being excluded from your 'real deal' country club, I will never have to worry about being confused for 'perfect'. I mean, without your seal of approval, how can I be anything other than a hack..?

Diki makes a very good point here.

At the end of the day, it is the demands of the *customers* that shape the retail sales model.

If customer demands are for lowest possible price, and that is the overall situation today, don't expect retail price service.

This phenomenon also affects other areas of mechandising as well, such as warranty service centers (or the lack thereof), knowledgeable product support at point of sale, even can and does affect overall product quality control as cost-cutting manufacturing methods and component purchasing can and often does lower the dependability of consumer and prosumer items.

Then, at the end of the day, the average customer blames everyone and everything for the problem -- except themselves and their own buying practices.

It is what it is.


--Mac

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I've been on all three sides of the fence; sold musical instruments in retail stores for years, worked for several keyboard manufacturers on the wholesale side, and have been a retail customer since I was 14 or so. Back when I started buying keyboards for myself back in the mid-70's, I appreciated the experienced salespeople that worked at the local music stores. The keyboard guys were players, knew the products inside and out and were able and willing to share their knowledge to a young kid. When I got into retail, those positive experiences I had as a kid taught me how important it was to know the product I was selling and gave me a good foundation on how to relate to a customer. And that meant a lot to my customers. Unfortunately those days are all but gone. The customers are as bad as the salespeople. The customer wants the local dealer to match ridiculous prices. The store owners try to match what they can in order to stay in business, but costs have to be cut somewhere and that is typically done by lowering employee pay, which relates to lower employee quality. It is hard to find a truly knowledgeable salesman, and harder still to find one that is willing to take the time to provide training on the products they sell. The internet certainly has had a huge impact on free standing stores, before that there were catalog sales, and before that there were dealers who would advertise outside of their authorized territory. Of course none of that would make a difference if customer's remained loyal to there local dealers. If customers would support their local dealers, those dealers may be able to pay a decent salary to a knowledgeable salesperson. I can't remember how many times I've heard the line "I need to be able to put my hands on an instrument before I buy it", followed by "I bought it online". Meaning they used the local dealer as a showroom for the online dealer. That's just wrong.

What kind of wining would there be if someone started hounding in on your gigs by undercutting your fee. And don't be naive enough to think that your gigs couldn't be taken away. If the price is low enough...

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Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band
The Modulators

[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 10-01-2009).]

True, but what's a 'starving musician' to do? It's only good sense to want to try something as expensive and complex as an electronic musical instrument before plopping down your dollars. However, given the fact that your run-of-the-mill musician is traditionally one of the most underemployed and underpaid (not to mention, under-appreciated.....especially by club owners) persons in the job market, most have no choice but to make their final purchasing decision based on price.

While the Internet contributes to this (buying online), it also presents unprecedented opportunities to educate one's self on a particular product. Through on-line reviews and dedicated forums (such as Synthzone), as Diki pointed out, there is little reason to require 'knowledgeable staff' to help you with your purchasing decision.

Is it ethical to demo an instrument in a store in which you have no intention of making a purchase? Probably not, but what are your options. The only solution I can think of, top of my head, is if the manufacturers/distributors had a different wholesale price for Internet dealers and brick-and-mortar stores. It would have to be enough of a difference to provide a level playing field for both types of dealers. Just curious, has this subject ever been broached by b&m stores? George? Frank?

So, until society upgrades the position of 'musician' to compete financially with other career choices, musicians will never (with rare exception) make the transition from Walmart to Saks Fifth Ave.

Rude sales people? Hah, we're lucky to have any STORES left.

chas



[This message has been edited by cgiles (edited 10-01-2009).]

Different price structures already exist between the small independently owned stores and the large chains & online outlets. The problem is it is backwards. What I mean is the large chains get special deals all the time from manufacturers as do some of the online dealers. From the manufacturers viewpoint, a sale to a chain that consists of many units is better than a small order from an independent dealer; fast money in other words, so they give the chain a better price based on a quantity order. And even if the online dealer paid than same for a product as a free standing store, their cost is really less because they have a fraction of the overhead of the free standing store. So this is the fault of the manufacturer. But also the fault of those big dealers. If they would stick to a fair retail price, then that wouldn't put the small dealers in such a bad place; at least they could compete by offering local service, training, etc. even though they aren't making the same profit. But instead the big stores turn around and sell a product for a minimal profit over their actual cost. There are times when these big stores can retail a product for less than what a small dealer actually has to pay for it from the manufacturer and that's crazy. Sorry for going on and on, but it has long been a problem with me when I see big business come into a market and destroy small independently owned stores. And then when I hear complaints similar to some in this thread and others, it just galls me because more times than not, those doing the complaining are contributing to the problem. "That statement is not directed at any one individual, so whoever gets mad about it, well, there you go."

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Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band
The Modulators

One thing that hinders local music store sales is that they must charge state sales tax, when most of the internet vendors to do not.
This adds another 8 percent or so that the store can't get around paying, even if they match the internet prices.
I would gladly pay a little more (and I have many times) to purchase locally, but it's too late. No local stores here stock arrangers other than really low end product.
And I must say there is simply no market for high-end arrangers here. A store would have to hire someone knowledgeable enough to create a market, by doing demos, expos and such. They the interested people would probably at least comparison shop via the internet anyway.
DonM

Good point about state and sometimes local tax. Here in GA, it's 7%. 7% of a new Audya or (gasp) Wersi , is a lot of moolah. Imagine if we could buy our new cars over the net and bypass taxes. New car dealers would instantly turn into warranty and service facilities. We can blame everyone else, but in the end, it's our willingness to forgo both amenities (like after-sales support, knowledgeable sales staff, etc.) and ethical considerations (like demo'ing and not buying), in pursuit of the best prices. You get what you pay for.

chas

I go way out of my way to support the little guy. I drive across town to go to lunch at places where I know the proprietor and will gladly pay more for his product and service.
Part of this is supporting the people who support me, in terms playing jobs. I don't work for peanuts and they shouldn't have to either.

I support Frank and George and will pay any retailer 10% over an internet price without complaining if they are cordial, knowledgeable and deliver what they promise.

I have ordered merchandise from people I know and not even asked the price, knowing they'll be as fair as they can, or when I've known going in and had discussions with the owner that his price was higher than internet pricing, and I was OK with it. I want the people who work hard for my business to make money.

Everyone's right. Ya gotta pay the price; either in tolerating shoddy service by uninformed clerks, when retailers are fighting internet pricing, or by just paying a little more for the knowledge and service.

R.

I'm sure most folks already know this, but just because you are not charged tax when purchasing from an online retailer, that does not make the purchase 'tax free'. The purchaser is supposed to turn in the appropriate sales tax on the purchase to their state. State sales taxes pay for many things, some of which you may agree with and some of which you may not. But the fact is when buying online from out-of-state, and if you are not submitting the appropriate tax payment to your state, then you are not only hurting a local music store dealer, but you are also hurting the school system, road maintenance, police force, etc.

There was talk a while back about taxing online sales. But putting that into effect would be a nightmare on the accounting departments of the online retailers in order to make sure that right state gets the right amount of money. Then again, what do I care if they have to spend a little more of their profits.

Dave

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Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band
The Modulators

Interesting. I wasn't aware that there was a legal requirement to report out-of-state purchases for the tax purposes. I know I've never done it. I'd love to see a show of hands of anyone that has. If it's true, I doubt if most people are aware of it (although, when thinking about it, it makes sense). I used to live in the Philly 'burbs near Delaware (which has no state sales tax) and it was common practice to purchase nearly all big-ticket items in Delaware. I don't think anyone thought of it as any kind of criminal activity, but on reflection, I guess it was if you didn't report it (and I'm not aware of anyone that did). In fact, Delaware stores encouraged out-of-state shoppers by advertising their tax-free status. The other tax-free haven was the PX on most military bases, which we all took advantage of. Should that also have been reported? All very interesting. Are the laws vague or are they clear and we are just choosing to ignore them?

chas

The large outlets aren't "offered deals" to get those better prices. They simply exploit the law of supply and demand. If they have the cout to order thousands of a single item, they can demand a volume discount. The local retailer cannot do that, must purchase wholesale inventory at a much higher rate at much lower volume.

Timely subject, the local radio stations here are airing an ad for The Guitar Sinner outlets around these parts where they have installed online internet computers instore and the deal is that if the customer can get online and find a lower price for any item in the store, they will beat it.

Me, I'm waiting for the story of the kid that creates a website with a much lowered price for a high priced item, surfs to it instore and manages to convince the sales geeks to sell him something expensive for next to nothing. C'mon, you know its gonna happen...


--Mac

Some manufacturers most certainly offer special deals to there largest clients. While in retail years ago, there were many times, normally a month or so before NAMM that one of these mass retailer would advertise a crazy low price on what we thought was still a current product only to find out later (many times having just ordered some at regular price) that it had been discontinued and the remaining inventory was sold in total at a huge discount to the mass retailer. The independent dealers were not even given the chance to purchase. And I'm sorry to say that over the years there were times that I saw the same thing happen from the manufacturers side while working at several different companies. But that was rare and most of the time we did offer the deal to all dealers and one company actually would do price adjusting of recently purchased but prior to the blowout product so I don't feel too bad.

You are correct that the largest of the catalog/online dealers can sometimes demand a volume discount. One of the mass merchandisers that has been mentioned in this thread actually demands exclusivity of a certain products or brands even telling the manufacturer where that product will be manufactured in order to undercut other stores. That's pretty screwed up if you ask me.

Dave

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Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band
The Modulators

If wages had been going up at the rate of inflation, or if the wealthiest 5% of this nation hadn't had the largest transfer of wealth from the middle class to the upper in history, perhaps there wouldn't be the demand for products at the cheapest price possible, and to hell with the consequences. But for us to remain placid in our corporate servitude, we have to convince ourselves SOMEHOW that things are still OK... That we haven't slowly been going backwards.

Gotta have the toys, even if Santa has to be downsized! I mean, who cares about Santa, anyway?

Haha, Russ, that is a great story, I tell ya!

Well, Dave, whether it is palatable or not this exanmple is still the law of supply and demand at work. The large outfit made a buy that nobody else could and cornered the remaining inventory. Presumably the buy was large enough to invoke the deep discount quantity price, which was likely influenced by the unit closeout, no doubt, but still indiciative of the way the free market works.

For good or ill, today's marketing concepts have changed, we must be able to adapt to the paradigm shift. It has already happened.


--Mac

You're right. And just to be clear I have nothing against a free market. The alternative of our government having any say in private business is not pleasant. And in defense of... no wait, actually I need to correct something I said earlier. When I brought up manufacturers, I really should have said distributors. Now, in defense of the U.S. distributors of products manufactured outside of our country, they have sales goals they must meet. When the oversees manufacturer springs the news that a model has been discontinued and there are multiple containers of new models on the water, the distributor has to do some fancy footwork to unload the old stock. At some point the easy (only realistic) way out is to make a deal with a dealer who can take the entire lot. The problem I have is when a distributor doesn't at least offer the deal to thier long standing, independent dealers at the same time. A part of the free market means everyone has an equal opportunity to prosper.