The advantage of Yamaha's Super Articulation, and to an even greater extent, SA2, is that you don't need to use your left hand to give the voice it's expressive qualities....although, you can, if you wish, and thus add even more nuances.

I don't believe there are any arrangers with a pitch strip...I used one on an old Yamaha CS-80 we refurbished, used in the studio for a few years, and then sold...it was très cool....also had one on a Moog Polymoog, and a Moog Multimoog.

There used to be a stand alone pitch strip available quite some time ago...made by Kurzweil called the Expression Mate. You plugged it in a midi port, and it attached to the panel....probably hard to find one of those today.




[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 09-29-2009).]

Hi Diki.

I don't want to argue with you on this so I will say my bit and leave it at that unless you actually want to talk about sound design for optimised Wind Instrument performances on keyboards.

I do understand everything you said but the problem I have with it is that 90% of what you said does not apply to wind instruments at all. Your treating wind instruments with a technique that is only for stringed instruments.

I also think you are trying to back-peddle here now by now introducing the only instruments your technique allies. For anyone trying to emulate a guitar or a cello your technique is bang on and you covered the topic extremely well.

But since the subject was about wind instruments and that you could rival a wind controller with just the keys and your technique, then your technique is flawed.

Nobody tongues each note and so your simulated legato does not work at all. Vibrato is a variation of breath blowing into the instrument which directly effects the tone and volume long before it effects the actual pitch. Your view is that it only effects pitch. A trill is a flutter between two notes that can change in both speed and intensity. You have no control over intensity at all and all you can control is the pitch. In addition to that the shape of your modulation would be wrong if all your doing is wiggling your finger on the Ribbon. You would have to actually tap it off centre to get somewhat close to the effect you really need, but that's a backwards approach when you can use an LFO waveshaping to modulate it for you in the correct manner.

So if you can accept that your technique only applies to stringed instruments and you would fancy a good heavy technical chat about what could be done to get the most from wind instrument sounds, then lets have a bash.

Regards
James

Sure, NON LFO vibrato is more realistic IF and it is a big IF the sound engineer does not screw it up by having a LARGE variance in vibrato depth and/or speed NOTE to NOTE.
Unfortunately many of the sounds using sampled vibrato suffer from this. My T2 and now my PA2 have many sounds that are ruined by this.

It is not that noticable if you play fast music only...but if you play beautiful ballads, musical theatre etc it will ruin the performance. Anyone else just hate this problem?

The samples have to be done right. And at the cost of the TOTL arrangers they should be...but, sadly are not.

Small variance note to note is very nice and realistic.

So, LFO vibrato eliminates this issue, even though you loose some of the natural nuances.

Lee S.

I appreciate what you are saying, James, but it is an imperfect world. While a wind controller is going to get the best out of a wind sound, sadly, it's not an option for the keyboardist, so what is a boy to do?

I am not saying that the techniques I describe will make a sax sound indistinguishable from the real thing. But they WILL add an entirely new level of realism compared to simply using a bender.

And I'm STILL not sure you get the legato detached thing. The idea is you hit AND HOLD the key note, then use the strip to 'jump' to the new note. The attack transient is NOT played again, only the sustain or legato part of the sample. Same thing with trills. Hit and hold the note (there's the tonguing), then use the strip to tap very quickly (or slowly) at any point you want. Main thing is, you are NEVER going to be able to precisely hit the same point over and over, and this is going to emulate a real player (who can't do that either ).

And no, you are not going to be able to legato whole phrases, but with a combination of a sound that the attack transient (the tonguing) is emphasized when hit hard, so lower velocity notes are not so spitty and tongued, and using the strip to play notes around the played one to give true legato, you can certainly add another layer of realism. Is it perfect? Of course not. Neither is a wind controller. Is it better than a bend wheel? You bet!

A trill may be able to vary in depth and intensity, but on most arrangers, there isn't any way to do a trill at all, unless you retask the LFO from vibrato. Whereupon, you no longer have that as an option. But a strip, while it won't make the PERFECT trill, makes a FAR better one than most arrangers can (or any keyboard without a strip). Yes, there's always compromise, but there is less of one when you DO have a strip. Main thing is, this ONE gestural controller does bends, trills, legato notes (non-attacked notes, if you want to be more precise), hammer ons and offs, vibrato, intonation adjustment and many other things. From the ONE controller, with no fancy voice programming. For the PLAYER, this is invaluable, as you are not constantly darting between one place and another to do these many different tasks.

For me, at least, the goal isn't to be perfect. The goal is simply to be as good as you can... I've been using the KX-5 for donkey's years for this exact purpose, and currently, live, into quite an average module (little Roland MG-S64) that isn't anywhere near state of the art sampling, But I continually get real sax players come up to me and tell me that's the closest they ever heard anyone get to nailing what a sax does (on a keyboard)... If it's good enough for THEM, it's good enough for me.

Would I like something better? Sure I would. But I haven't found it yet in anything that is so tactile and intuitive to play. SA would be great, but so far, nothing's out in a small module that tempts me (MotifXS seems to implement SA a bit differently to the Tyros).

Guess I'll have to break out the KX-5 and make Donny ecstatic and record a few examples (on the other hand, just like the last thing I did, Donny will probably pretend I didn't do it and keep on like a stuck record ). Will it beat a wind controller? Probably not. But I'm not a wind player...! For controlling ROMPLERS (rather than synth engines optimized for wind control), it's the best thing I've found so far... It'll certainly beat anything WITHOUT a ribbon

Nobody is saying you have to buy a wind controller.

You have a technique which works for Stringed instruments already. So all you need is one that suites wind instruments.

This is really easy stuff once up place all your needs out on a table and then look at what you have to work with.



I get what your saying but it's just not realistic. You cannot perform a melody in Legato by playing one notes and sliding your finger all around the ribbon to produce all the other pitches you need.

Why on earth even try when you HAVE an actual Legato mode on your keyboard that will allow you to play naturally with no need to even touch the ribbon.



The failure you mentioned to be able to hit the same spot on the ribbon each time is exactly what will make it sound fake because a trill is a flutter between two specific notes. There is no in-between here or slightly over. The shape of the waveform your generating is also different from what a trill actually looks like when you apply proper modulation.

Again, why also evev try do it that way when your Triton has an entire feature designed to do the job for you exactly like a real player will. You simply use the LFO waveform shapes to modulate the sound.

This again allows you to play totally naturally in Legato mode at the same time as doing trills, all without the Ribbon.



Ok, so you see you can't play legato your way. So use the Legato mode and the problem is solved. Same goes for the JoyStick. It can do Vibrato in the Z+ direction and Trills in the Z- Direction. If you even over program the values into the Joystick you have detailed verable control over the amounts of effect applies.



No arranger has a Ribbon that I know of and I've already make my points as to why it's not the way to do it anyway. So if we are to move away from workstations and talk arranger, you really can't do it until you define what make of keyboard you are going to try reproduce the effect on.

If it's a KORG, then no problem. It has the same LFO waveshape functions as your Triton, legato modes and everything else. If it's a Yamaha, then we need to look at the LFO and what can be done with it. Same goes for every other make of keyboard.

Each have their straightens and weaknesses, but the concept and technique required is still the same.



Which is a good attitude to have, but why settle for less when there is a much better way to do it that allows you to play entirely naturally at the same time.



Which is why I'm taking the time to reply. There is a better way and tapping the ribbon like a mad man while also having to play a certain way is not it.

Cheers
James

I am a little confused... when you say Legato Mode, are you referring to going monophonic? Because that's as unrealistic with wind patches as the pitch strip, IMO. Only SA (and DMC) allows totally different samples for legato as detached, AFAIK...

When you are dealing with older technology (like the Roland's, for instance ), there simply is NO 'legato' mode. There's either monophonic, or polyphonic. The thing about using the strip to perform partial phrases (I DID say you couldn't do an entire line like that, but even if it is one note or two, that's still double or triple what you can do without one ) is that, you are not still locked into either mode. Play a lead, then play a section answer. All on the same sound, with the same technique...

I have to confess, I am FAR more into finding a single gestural way to do as much as possible to a note than in finding multiple complex ways to program it in. As I said, earlier, the strip allows you to do a large selection of articulations, with NO programming, and all at the same time. You task your LFO to do trills, now it can't do regular vibrato. Maybe on far more complex synth engines like the Triton, but the large percentage of decent arrangers don't have these parameters available to reprogram (nor do I have the time!).

Even if they are half-assed, and not as good as you can program with a full fledged synth, having such a large variety of inflections available by the simple (I certainly don't find it in the least difficult to get what I want out of the line as I go along) application of ONE controller strikes me as an elegant way to gain a LOT more control over a sound with the least amount of programming. Ask any guitarist if he would prefer to do bending with one controller and vibrato with another, and trills with another again, and hammer-ons and offs with yet ANOTHER, and he will laugh at you!

He can do it all with the one technique. So can we...

I think I get where you are coming from, certainly a recording perspective, where the goal is to be as accurate as is humanly possible, and the devil with how complicated. I tend to come more from the live perspective (because, if I'm looking for a good sax lead on a track, I'll hire a good sax PLAYER!), and in live, sheer accuracy isn't anywhere near as importance as sheer playability. Having all those types of performance gestures available instantly under ONE easy to use controller is worth the lack of ultimate authenticity.

But I can see we solve the same problem in two different ways, and that at least is a GOOD thing! For me, every step we take beyond simple 'hit the note, hit the next note, hit the next note' is a step forward to releasing the keyboard from its' shackles. Guitarists still lord it over us in the ability to add a degree of expression that is instantly recognizable from player to player, even with the same guitar and amp. Anything that allows me to play something in a way that no-one else possibly COULD is a good thing, in my book. The minute you start programming the inflections in, rather than physically PLAYING them in, you reduce the amount of YOU that each performance brings. With a strip, there simply is no way for me to play a line identically each time. With LFO programming, it's hard NOT to do it identically... (unless you can put some sort of random offset to the values).

I am a trombone player (was my major), so I think I'm pretty attuned to what is the essence of why horns are so difficult to emulate. And primarily, the aleatoric aspects, the sheer randomness of it all is what separates the played from the programmed. With an embouchure, all the note stability (or lack thereof!) is an unconscious part of your performance. Your ear hears what is wrong (or right) and adjusts your lip and breathing to compensate or enhance, but all at a pretty subconscious level. You don't THINK 'I've got to do a trill here, so I've got to adjust my lip just SO, and change my lung pressure just SO" (and so on) - you just DO IT.

For me, at least, getting that degree of control over a keyboard sound requires that whatever you use to control it be as natural and unconscious as your lip control on a real horn. Having to think 'up for vibrato, down for trill, left and right for pitch bend, Knob 1 for trill rate, Switch1 for mono/poly' and so forth takes FAR too much away from the sheer connectedness of the sound to your hand. It's cerebral rather than visceral.

Is it as accurate as you can do with programming? I really doubt it. But do I feel more intimately connected to the control of the sound? You bet I do

BTW, I am once again enjoying a VERY interesting discussion with you. I hope you don't take it as simple sheer argumentativeness, because I value what you have to say, and am learning a lot from it. I can tell that you spend a LOT of time thinking about all this, and that is so refreshing, here! I would certainly be very interested in hearing some naked wind playing with the programming techniques you have been talking about...

It's always a pleasure discussing things with you.

I have previously stated that I don't use my library of sampled sounds on my Receptor due to my inability to achieve non robotic modulation with the Kontakt ll engine. How would your K-5 handle these ? Conversely ,I have an SD2 module which contains many modulated instruments. I guess the question is merely academic ,since it is discontinued.

Not trying to sound like a smart-alack, but why would you play a solo using a clarinet sound when there was an actual clarinet player on the gig.

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Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band
The Modulators

Dave
Our band is 20 members during the season(Florida) ,but dwindles to varying degrees othertimes. It is up to me to fill in wherever needed. I may solo one verse and play section backup the other three.

That makes sense. I've done the same thing when one of our horn players couldn't make a gig.

What part of Florida are you in? The band I am in, The Modulators , will be playing at 'Tween Waters Island Resort on Captiva Island for the annual Halloween party on Saturday, October 31st and then the following week at the Crow's Nest.

If anyone is close enough to visit, please do. It is always fun to meet forum members in person.

Best Regards,

Dave

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Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band
The Modulators