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#272242 - 09/28/09 07:19 AM Keyboard vs Real Instruments
Bernie9 Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 5508
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
This is nothing new to most of you ,but I was reminded of this on my last band gig when a sax and clarinet player came up to me on break and commented on how authentic my clarinet sounded, on my solo. I have read several times ,that our ears become accustomed to whatever sound we are playing and loss track of the very sound we are trying to emulate.

Thinking back to the early eighties ,FM couldn't come close to today's sampled sounds ,and it is more difficult to choose or edit a sound for realism. In my case ,it was the G70 I was playing. I had favored the KN7000 for band because I thought it was more realistic. However ,when I edited my sounds in the G70, to my ears ,I realized the basic sound was closer to the real thing ,hence the comments.

My point is that players should not necessarily grow so accustomed to their sounds to fool your ears to what's real.
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#272243 - 09/28/09 07:53 AM Re: Keyboard vs Real Instruments
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
The problem is not so much the sounds on your keyboard, it's the keys themselves only having 2 elements that control the sound.

Set velocity per note pressed and mono variable after touch per note pressed is by no means even remotely close to what is needed to reproduce the expressiveness of a real-world instrument.

For that we have devices like the WX-5 and EWI which do a fantastic job and when used with the right sound source, they can be just as expressive as the real-instrument themselves.

Connect a WX-5 to a PC running WIVI and you have nothing short of digital perfection. Heck, even WIVI running off a breath controller connected to a keyboard would blow your mind.

Regards
James

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#272244 - 09/28/09 09:27 AM Re: Keyboard vs Real Instruments
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15560
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Much of the realism you hear from an arranger keyboard comes from the sounds that were tweaked, tuned and created by the manufacturer. The next, and probably most important part of the equation, however, is the player. I know several performers who use mid range and TOTL keyboards and sound systems who couldn't produce realistic sounds from an arranger if their lives depended upon it. I also know performers such as Don Mason, Jerry Burns, Julio (in California) and several others that can work the keyboard's touch sensitivity, expression pedal and pitch bend wheel with such effectiveness that if you close your eyes you could NOT tell whether they were playing the real instrument or an arranger keyboard.

Sure wish I had those magic fingers,

Gary
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PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)

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#272245 - 09/28/09 09:54 AM Re: Keyboard vs Real Instruments
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Bernie I hear you BUT ........it all doesn't mean anything if the player doesn't articulate these sounds when playing close enough to the real instrument. And believe me I have heard horrendous imitators in my day.Playing an arranger is a serious multitasking art form all unto itself. This is why many just play "JUST" piano ontop of styles...vs many different sounds IMO.

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#272246 - 09/28/09 12:46 PM Re: Keyboard vs Real Instruments
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14194
Loc: NW Florida
There's a LOT you can do with just those basic voice controls, certainly enough to rival wind controllers (although maybe not exceed them) if you are doing wind emulation.

First thing is, DON'T use the LFO vibrato. Even with some subtle programming (mod depth to LFO speed is one of my favorites), it quickly becomes obvious it isn't real.

Second thing is, you have to be anal about your legato fingering. Nothing gives away a keyboard performance more than note overlap. SA does a great job of helping this out. But for all of us that don't have SA, or you are trying to use a sound that SA doesn't cover, you STILL have to work really hard to keep your fingering clean.

My secret weapon in the battle for the best emulation is the ribbon controller. I have a Triton, a Kurzweil, and an old KX5 controller/keytar (my favorite) all with pitch strips. Use any of these, and you have a MUCH better chance of a realistic performance. For starters, forget mod wheel vibrato. Place your finger on the center spot of the ribbon and rock it around like a cello or guitar string, and presto! Natural, non periodic vibrato...

Next is the ability to jump pitch rather than bending to it. Trills, hammer-ons, hammer-offs, all of these are things impossible with a wheel. But the strip makes these a snap. Plus, because of the nature of the strip, hitting EXACTLY the perfect intonation of the jump note is impossible, it makes it more realistic, as no wind instrument (or any acoustic instrument that you finger, to be honest) ever hits the note perfectly.

Finally, you have the option of playing notes without actually hitting them on the keyboard... Once again, for those of us without SA1/2 voices, making the difference between detached and legato notes is a challenge, and monophonic mode generally makes the sounds too electronic, but the pitch strip allows you to hit notes up and down from where you are without retriggering the sample, allowing a whole phrase, or at least, sections of it to be played without moving your played note (and once again with the imprecision of intonation that real instruments show).

All of which adds inflection and realism to the line. If you have a keyboard with a touch strip on it, try hooking it in to your arranger (at home, not sure whether this is going to be a popular solution for the live giggers!) and see if you can't coax a bit more realism from your sounds...
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#272247 - 09/28/09 01:26 PM Re: Keyboard vs Real Instruments
leeboy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 2580
Loc: Ocala, FL USA
Diki,
Yep, the ribbon on the Kurz is great...but I don't think any of the arrangers have a ribbon. So..which independent MIDI ribbon controller can be used??

Lee S.
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#272248 - 09/28/09 01:56 PM Re: Keyboard vs Real Instruments
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15560
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Lots of valuable information, Diki. I've never owned a keyboard with a strip, but I could envision where it would be highly beneficial.

Gary
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)

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#272249 - 09/28/09 02:58 PM Re: Keyboard vs Real Instruments
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Here's another factor. Unless we play (at a high level) the instrument we're trying to emulate, let's say sax, we don't think (musically) like a sax player. Without that, even with the techniques mentioned above, we won't fool too many people. As far as wind controller like the WX5, if I knew sax or flute or clarinet fingering well enough to make it effective, I'd just play the real instrument. The real thing would certainly look better on a gig. Just another opinion, but it is the reason I've never used an arranger on a gig. The other reason has to do with rhythm. I don't believe that there's any such thing as a 'pocket' with an arranger or a drum machine. Although you don't always get it, even with a group you play with a lot, on those nights when it does come together, it is pure food for the soul. I believe that when the whole group is 'in the pocket', it's not the drummer, or the bass player, or any single member. It's that rare super-interaction that happens (who knows why?) - and can only happen, between players who are on the same page at the heartbeat level. If you haven't experienced it, you won't know what I'm talking about, and if you only play arranger keyboards in OMB settings, you never will. As always, JMO.

chas
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"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#272250 - 09/28/09 03:21 PM Re: Keyboard vs Real Instruments
bruno123 Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 4912
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
Bernie,
You are right on with we have forgotten what the original sounds were like. Here’s a poor but example:
The pizza in New York is great, my favorite. After living in Florida and eating the pizza they make her --- for the last fifteen years I felt that they went from being fair to darn good. They finally made good pizza. I went back to New York a short while ago – reality hit me, I had forgotten what the real thing was.

John C.

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#272251 - 09/28/09 03:27 PM Re: Keyboard vs Real Instruments
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5347
Loc: English Riviera, UK
All good advice, particularly if the audience can’t see you or it’s a recording you have made. (Sorts out the men from the boys)

However if the audience can see you then know matter how good the articulation performance, they will always see and hear a musician playing a keyboard, not a Sax. (Except for the musician the eyes always overrule all the other senses)

Keep the tips coming, as this is what one aspect of the forum should be about.

Bill
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Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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