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#272224 - 09/29/09 08:15 PM Re: Concert Photo's frome the Pakefield Keyboard Festival
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
You really don't know what is going on, do you? How can something that uses 16 bit samples have a BETTER than 16 bit sound? You know, I am amazed you can convince yourself of all this hogwash... (Mind you, if I had spent THAT much money on something that poorly styled, I MIGHT be grasping desperately for excuses, too!)

Let's take, for instance, listening to the radio. Does it sound so bad that, when you hear a song that you like and know, you say to yourself 'I have no idea who or what that is'? No, you have NO trouble recognizing it for what it is. Let's take it one further. You listen to a CD of someone playing the piano, do you go "I have no idea what instrument he is playing"? No, you recognize it for exactly what it is.

But a Wersi...? No, that's a whole different kettle of fish, isn't it?

I am sorry, but alongside my work as a session musician, I also do mastering work for local studios and artists. I am probably a LOT more aware than you exactly what the difference between a 24bit 96kHz audio file and its' derivative 192kbps MP3 is. And one thing I can tell you is, nothing that sounded like crap at 192 (or even 128) kbps MP3 DIDN'T sound like crap at 24/96, too Just for the record, I use equipment up to and including Manley Massive Passive's and Manley Slam!'s and hardware L2's along with Apogee converters, then a plethora of software solutions including UAD Mastering software and Waves.

You record the flowers growing at 24/96, it doesn't sound like the toilet flushing at 128 MP3! And vice versa...

Here's the rub. Almost everything you listen to on the radio and on the TV has undergone some data compression. Yet much of it sounds great... But of everything that you listen to, somehow, ONLY a Wersi is incapable of being appreciated in anything short of 24/96?

Tosh, plain and simple. No offense, but I'm fairly sure, at your age, that you would have as much trouble as most people our age (I'm in my mid 50's) telling the difference between a CD rip and a good 256kbps MP3 in a true double blind listening test. Even so called 'golden ear' listeners have been fooled. And that basically lays it to rest. If the difference is SO small it CAN fool golden ear listeners from time to time, how subtle it must be... Nowhere near the gross difference you claim it HAS to be to excuse those awful styles. 24/96 rubbish is STILL rubbish! Only perhaps MORE so, as you can hear every excruciating detail

I've got GB's of recordings of my G70 (and earlier). Some at MP3, and some at 44/16. And you know what? It is EASY to tell it is exactly the same machine. Why does Wersi alone deteriorate into a pile of poo when IT gets encoded..?

Magic, I tell you... sheer magic!
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#272225 - 09/30/09 01:39 AM Re: Concert Photo's frome the Pakefield Keyboard Festival
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5345
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Hi Diki
You have just confirmed most of what I have said in my post, Thank you.

The only point you haven’t answered is why there is a magnitude of difference between the new Atelier and your G70 when heard live, but not when heard online, your professional knowledge should have been able to answer this ages ago, (I have mentioned it many times in many threads) but you never do.
Why is that?

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#272226 - 09/30/09 02:10 AM Re: Concert Photo's frome the Pakefield Keyboard Festival
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
It's quite simple, Bill. I have never heard the Atelier and G70 back to back live. I have only heard web recordings of both. They sound pretty similar. I can definitely hear the same samples, the same sounds, and often the same kind of styles.

Now, tell me again how YOU managed to hear them back to back...

Did they, for instance, get played through exactly the same sound system, at exactly the same settings? Things that can color your impression in a live setting... I doubt it. You generally hear organs through their own powerful multi-channel multi speaker sound systems, while arrangers will get played through a conventional PA. That is a world of difference, right there...

In fact, the only way to get a true apples to apples comparison of the two IS to have good quality recordings made of both. It takes the sound system out of the equation. And when that has happened (as in Roland's OWN recordings of the Atelier and the G70) it is obvious that there's hardly a lick of difference. Certainly nothing worth paying an extra $15,000 for

I still stand by my assertion that, in person, none of the lame Wersi styles that don't impress many of us in the least wouldn't magically turn into something that DID. As I have said many times, Tiny Tim on a CD doesn't sound as good as Frank Sinatra on an LP When somethings sucks so obviously in the first place, higher fidelity only makes the sucking more excruciating...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#272227 - 09/30/09 02:15 AM Re: Concert Photo's frome the Pakefield Keyboard Festival
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by abacus:
Hi Diki
You have just confirmed most of what I have said in my post, Thank you.


Oh and BTW, thank you for ignoring every point I made, as well... I guess I can claim confirmation too, by the same logic?
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#272228 - 09/30/09 07:37 AM Re: Concert Photo's frome the Pakefield Keyboard Festival
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5345
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Hi Diki

One of the many advantages of attending the keyboard festivals is live comparisons between instruments, including with the same sound systems, also I always take my own Grado headphones to use and thus take the speaker system out of the equation.

With the Ateliers there is normally pre-owned instruments available, (The previous generation use the same sound engine as the G70/E80 series) and therefore it is quite easy to compare old with new, (Organ cabinets and speakers are pretty much the same) and I can assure you that there is a magnitude of difference between the 2.

Many professional artists as well as home users play the Atelier organs and have upgraded to the new models, (No point upgrading if there is no improvement) and consequently I have purchased a number of the professionals CDs (Both old and new) which easily show the difference between the 2, (Not as much as live, but way above any online mp3 demos that are out there)

Hope this answers your question.
Regards

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#272229 - 09/30/09 12:10 PM Re: Concert Photo's frome the Pakefield Keyboard Festival
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Sorry, Bill, but I think you place far too much value in whatever is hyped as 'new'. As far as I am concerned, playing exactly the same samples through what might allegedly be a new synth engine (which, as of yet, no-one has released any details about what exactly IS new about it... I personally am skeptical, as new engines usually come from new WS's engines, and the FantomG line isn't any kind of serious step up from the previous Fantom) doesn't make it significantly better. It's kind of like playing the exact same CD through a slightly better hi-fi... Yes, it MIGHT be a BIT better, but there's no doubt it is exactly the same CD...

The Atelier's Articulated voices completely failed to gobsmack me, unlike most of the SA/SA2 voices. And those were the ONLY things I have heard in the Atelier that weren't obvious lifts from the G70.

And there isn't a single thing in any of the Atelier's technical specs that indicates an engine any different from the basic Fantom/G70 engine. The thing is, a Bugatti Veyron looks MUCH faster when you are standing next to it... I think it is simply all too easy to be impressed by the sheer majesty of an organ (and it's sound system), and there's a definite tendency to look for reasons why it is SO expensive.

All too often, we attribute things to it that simply don't bear up to hard objective facts. Is there ANYWHERE that this new engine is discussed in any detail? From Roland's own Atelier page http://www.rolandatelier.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductId=933 the only thing that seems any improvement over the Fantom engine is polyphony, which would tend to support the idea of multiple sound engines. I think a bit of stat padding is going on here, as the VK organ section's polyphony is at least 61 notes simultaneous, the Rodgers organ section most likely has it's own substantial polyphony, and I doubt the G70 derived section probably doesn't exceed 128.

But other than the articulated sounds (whoopee! a whole FOUR of them! T3 must be quaking in it's boots ), most of those voice stats are actually poorer than a G70. Far fewer sounds. 450 or so compared with 1500. 18 drum sets as opposed to 48 in the G70. And this is just stock. Add an SRX card to the G70, you have added hundreds more voices and some more new kits (depending on which SRX card you get).

Let's look at the sequencer. 7 tracks in the Atelier 16 in the G70. No onboard SSHD to store everything.

I'm sorry, but just reading all this, I simply get the impression this is a flute/pipe/theater organ with a stripped down G70 tacked on. Roland certainly have released NO information that indicates any radical new technology. You would think they would, were it so groundbreaking... I have read Roland's entire ad copy for the AT900C, and there isn't word ONE about any new next generation voice technology. Just exactly where did YOU get this? Some salesman tell you?
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#272230 - 09/30/09 04:56 PM Re: Concert Photo's frome the Pakefield Keyboard Festival
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
http://www.rolandatelier.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductId=933

I enjoyed watching these videos demos.......sounds great.

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#272231 - 09/30/09 10:37 PM Re: Concert Photo's frome the Pakefield Keyboard Festival
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
So do the G70/E80 demos too...

Notice any similarities..?
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#272232 - 10/01/09 07:13 AM Re: Concert Photo's frome the Pakefield Keyboard Festival
Ensnareyou Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/02
Posts: 491
Loc: California
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
So do the G70/E80 demos too...

Notice any similarities..?


While the samples used in the Atelier may have come from the same original sound source, you can bet the samples utilized are much longer, have higher resolution, and the AD/DA converters used will be significantly better quality than those in your beloved G70. I'll bet a side by side audition would easily show the Atelier to be the clear winner over a G70 or E80.

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#272233 - 10/01/09 07:20 AM Re: Concert Photo's frome the Pakefield Keyboard Festival
Ensnareyou Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/02
Posts: 491
Loc: California
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
I am positive that Ensnareyou is quite capable of deciding whether he likes an arranger by listening to it over the internet. Let us not forget, all of our audiences get THEIR impression of what we play from listening to it, too!


I don't give online demos much weight because I know that most often the instrument rarely sounds the same in person, sometimes better, often times much worse. Also, there are so many variables with online demos i.e. the players skill or lack therefore, poor audio gear used to track the demo, and most often use of MP3's which in my opinion truly suck. Perhaps an MP3 file is good enough for DIKI to determine the true audio quality of an instrument but I for one would never pass judgment simply based upon an MP3.

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