By now everyone must have heared from Karma. Karma is an engine used by KORG that replaces their old fashioned arpegiator.

I found these video's from the engineer/musician that created KARMA, Steven Kay

http://www.karma-lab.com/vp/klvp2.html?playID=40

Under the Oasys section there are the video's MPL1 to MPL8 that explain the possibilities of KARMA step by step. Just take a few minutes and watch them, its great stuff. Afterwards be sure to also look at the Top of the list video that shows KARMA on open labs NEKO.

I have been interested now in KARMA for some time and been following some discussions all over the internet.

I came to the following conclusions.

KARMA is not a replacement of an auto arranger or an old fashioned arpeggiator.

But:

KARMA could be a great addition to an auto arranger. This is also acknowledged by Steven Kay. He'd love to see KARMA on the next model PA arranger (or any other arranger)
I think the flexibillity and versatality of KARMA could give arrangers the flexibillity they really need and make them finally attractive to the youth.

Anyone overehere that has some experience with KARMA in combination with an arranger ?

Have you been to Steven Kay's website? Of particular interest is the software versions of Karma for products having Karma. This software enables users to create custom Karma GE's This function if ever integrated with Korg's arranger line would enable you to create song's signature licks and activate them with the click of a button. I have the Korg M3 and see how Karma can be a bridge between workstation, and arranger.

It would certainly make them super cool again, and make styles more live sounding. It would also probably allow people with no style programming skills to make styles just be adjusting KARMA settings.

The arranger would certainly become a far more creative tool both young and old would enjoy.

Regards
James

Normally i'd say its up to Korg to make this happen....

But..........

Since any company can get a license for KARMA every company can make this happen...



[This message has been edited by Bachus (edited 08-31-2009).]

Korg M3 with Karma for me the same as arranger but for another type of music. After I get Korg M3 at home (is was October 2007) I since turn on my G-70 two or three times only.

If you want gig with evergreens than you need auto arranger. If you want simply to play with music that contemporary and definitely not evergreens then Karma is sufficient. Style of my Karma playing not very different from that of auto arranger: left hand providing harmony, right hand providing solo. "Styles" exists but this is not "sequenced patterns" with intro and ending. It is very hard to explain it in text. Better you go to a music shop and try with any "combi". It is very interesting to improvise with this "combi".

The only thing that missed in Korg M3 is bossa-nova rithm. I am afraid it because my laziness to download bossa-nova "combi" from yet to be determined source in Internet.

So you allready have combo's for cha-cha-cha, samba, tango and polka ?

Or is that still where we need an arranger.
Is it possible to create 8 different scenes in a combo, where every scene is like another "main" in a style?

It does indeed have 8 Scenes per COMBI.

I consider music of 50es and 60es (XX or XIX centuries like cha-cha-cha and polka as evergreens. If you want play this old dance music, than you need old arranger (like G-70 that I own since 13 of January 2005).

But even be-bop and hard rock you can play Karma as well as auto arranger (with 8 style variation), slightly different in flavor. I think that you can program cha-cha-cha and polka in Karma too, but there are no factory preset ("combi") for them. Because when you get Karma, you immediately forget all cha-cha-cha and start to invent completely new music

Contemporary music with many layers of fast synth and slowly moving pads you can't play with arrangers but can play with Karma (e.g. in Korg M3) with same "8 style variations" as in ordinary arranger and chords+solo split in keyboard.

I am not that familiar with Karma, but the one area that I find to be non-intuitive in most of these loop and arp players (MoXS, FantomG, M3/50 etc.) is the matter of triggering arps.

So far, from what I have found out (correct me if I'm wrong), there is NOTHING similar to how arrangers fills work. That is, although arranger fills are one or two (or more) bars long, you can trigger them at any point in a bar, and they will commence playing immediately, but here's the most important thing... they commence from the correct point in the bar that they are triggered on.

So far, all I can find are arps that either start on the 'one', at the end of the bar no matter WHEN in the bar you trigger them, or ones that commence immediately (or on the NEXT beat), but they STILL start on the 'one'...

So... you ask fro a fill on the 'three' and you have a choice between waiting until the one (by which time, it is too late), or getting the fill immediately, but it now is out of sync (the 'one' is now a beat or two too early) and so are your subsequent bars.

Neither of these options are, IMO, musical. Fine, if you like, for music that basically doesn't HAVE fills, or fine for DJ's that can afford to think a bar or two ahead (because they are playing very little themselves), but for pretty much anything OTHER than straight ahead DJ type music (including much modern music - alternative rock, emo, basically anything played by HUMANS ), pretty much useless.

Until this is fixed, I'm afraid that Karma (if so hobbled) and other loop tools just don't cut it. They stifle spontaneity and creativity in all but DJ style music. If you have any dialog with the designers of these types of instruments, the arranger system of fills needs to be added to current triggering options before many of us (including those that DO a bit of loop music) can really use them for day to day operation.

It honestly seems that so little needs to be added before we can all adopt them without the paradigm shift in the way we play them needing to be changed (for the worse!)...

Hello, i am an intense everyday user of KARMA Soft and on the Synth. KARMA is not really hard to explain
at least for me but it is hard to understand for a Mortal user. KARMA is not an arranger nor we'll ever
be, it does not act like one, it doesnt have same CHORD recognition, it doesn not have same NTT
table, nothing, NOTHING is the same. KARMA doesnt create Variation but only scenes where mostly
only one Scene can be Original, each Scene then is created based on the first pattern, not as on
Arranger where each Variation can be created from scratch.
Bachus, KARMA has 8 Scenes and 4 Modules (Tracks) but if you use KM3 then you have 32 Scenes
and 6 Modules and no, it wont work as MAIN on a style, it is wayyyyy different.
Diki:
KARMA on KORG has no FILL functions, can be implemented with workarounds but is not worth doing
it especially for live music. The only KARMA that has Arranger like Fill function is the OL KARMA on
NEKO, i already discussed that with Stephen...he might think about it on next upgrate of KARMA 2.5.
As for the Arps starting at ONE or wherever dont let it confuse you, they work as arrangers, you can set
them up the way you want but as i said, there is no Fill on Korg's KARMA.
You say UNTIL THIS IS FIXED and there is NOTHING, NOTHING to be fixed on KARMA so dont mix
the 2 together, KARMA is not an arranger, it wont be an arranger and there is no need for FIXING
arranger functions. What KARMA was meant to be it is, it is PERFECT with no bugs nor anything.
We are never satisfied and always try to turn one thing into another. KARMA is KARMA and hence
the KARMA, if it was an arranger would be called PA2X or something else.
I hope certain things are more clear now for some people that dont know.
If someone has speciffic questions feel free to ask since i know the KARMA system in and out.

Nedim

[This message has been edited by Nedim (edited 08-31-2009).]

And just to let Bachus know, there is KARMA for OL and also for MOTIF will be or there is already.

I know Nedim..... But since i haven't tried a hands on with KARMA as we have no KORG dealer in this area i am just trying to figure out whats possible and if i can use KARMA for other things then modern music, i still think i really can... but there probably will not be many pre build modules for that.

@Diki

Diki did you see the video's i mentioned in my orriginal post, they really give you a good idea about whats possible with KARMA, they also show KARMA is not an Arranger, but many things of KARMA can be used very well in combination with an arranger.

The thing for me is, just because you CAN use them for fills doesn't mean that you HAVE to... it's simply another way of triggering another scene, arp, loop, whatever you want to call it. Just think DJ's cross cutting between tables. A way to go back and forth with two loops, and yet have them BOTH in sync with each other.

And, not JUST because it makes them good for fills... a loop that is programmed to go to another loop once it plays one time is a staple of DJ-ing. One-shots, aren't they?

You see, I think that those features that would help US would also help someone into electronica... All I'm looking for is a system that serves us BOTH. In sync arp switching and one shot loop destinations don't seem to be all THAT backwards looking... and would allow us all to straddle the line between arranger and Karma/arp/loop players wherever we felt like.

Bachus, you can achieve many things with KARMA that an arranger can and yes it
is possible to use KARMA for all kinds of music, even Country, Rock or anthing.
I am now building GEs for that kind of music and you'll hear how it works, the biggest
thing thats missing from an arranger on here is the FillIns.
Diki, i cant understand what do you mean by not staying in Sync, with KARMA everything
is in Sync when changing Scenes, even if you change another Arp everything still stays
in Sync, no matter changing Scenes, Arps or Sounds.
I dont have a good camera but i will try to record few things in real so you can understand
better and many Mortals will understand it better since existing videos are either of users
just playing or Pros with complicated instructions.

Nedim,

If i understand correctly the KARMA version for Open Labs will have a fill in function (triggered by drum pad 17)

I could be wtong to as my KARMA knowledge solely comes from reading about it and watching video's.....

You also said that there will be a KARMA for the Motif XS ? I haven't read anything about it.

Tough if i was yamaha, i certainly would get a license to build a version of KARMA into my Synthworkstations.

Now if Korg were to make Karma into a VST, then everybody would be able to use it, and would probably make Korg more money then they did with the OASYS.

Korg does not own KARMA.... KARMA is produced under license from KARMA lab.

Next to that, KARMA has no sound engine, it uses the sounds of a dedicated Synth engine, like a KORG M3 or soon an Open Labs NEKO.

If KARMA would be created as software it would be comparable to a mix of Arpeggiator/arranger/sequencer and probably function as a VST host.

Also KARMA is acombination of a software engine that is very tightly bound to the controlls of the hardware. When producing Karma as software you loose most of the ineractivity and flexibillity that the hardware controller offers you.

Ok, let's get practical here. Only 1 guy in 100, over the age of 50, is ever going to even come close to mastering the complexity of what I saw in the link in the opening post. Heck, I can barely remember what key a song is in, much less remember which of 150 buttons and switches to hit in the 3rd measure of the second verse while simultaneous playing the melody (or is it the chords?) with my right hand (dang, the button is on my right....never mind, it wasn't a button, it was a drawbar I was supposed to pull halfway out....too late now, that loop that was supposed to be playing now, is history and .....oh damn, I'm so confused (why is my audience booing?). Nahhhh, think I'll just stick to the organ.

When, where, who (except Nedim, of course ), would you be able to use this on a conventional gig, whether Country, Pop, Jazz, R&&B, whatever..... Is this intended for live use? Makes an arranger seem pretty tame by comparison, and most of us haven't even mastered those.

Although I realize that the 'musicianship' lies in the putting together of this kind of performance, I still can't help but feel that pre-programming performances like this and then reducing them to single button pushes, moves us further and further away from being live, performing musicians. JMO.

chas

Dear Chas,

You make the assumption that arrangers are for people 50+, or that there are only 50+ people vissiting this website.

I disagree to that.

With new ideas like the addition of KARMA and some DJ tools, arrangers could become popular with the youth.

Overhere in europe there allready are many younger people playing arrangers. And i am sure those people will keep playing arrangers if they become in addition to the old fashioned stuff become even more usefull for modern Music.

To keep arrangers alive, there needs to be innovation both in design as in options...

Feel free to disagree. My "50+" statement was aimed at members of this forum and in that context, is probably true. I also stand by the rest of my statement (see the "JMO" qualifier) even if it said partly in jest.

chas

Sorry but i have to say this:
In 100 Young user of Arranger i barelu see one 45-65 old arranger user, West or my community.
Next, Bachus, the FillIns for OL KARMA already exist and they might be implemented in M3.
The M3 KARMA was somewhere on an official page it wasnt only a rumor but i forgot where.
And also KARMA already exist as a software, thats the way and the only way it will be
implemented on the MOTIF, as a software, not internaly, there is also KARMA ofr TRITON and M50.

From the look of it, KARMA seems far more a way to get sounds and textures you weren't really expecting. From having messed with it in the stores, it seems that, once you actually DO anything other than play the keyboard, it's results are very difficult to replicate. Turn a knob JUST so, move a fader JUST this amount, play the joystick JUST this amount, and what comes out is magic. Now try to do it again...

There is a definite need for a certain degree of randomness in music, but how much rather depends on the type of music, and the type of player. Let's face it, most KARMA keyboards are in the hands of people that probably wouldn't be able to create anything like it by themselves (as, in all fairness, so most arrangers are also ), and something different every time is great if all you crave is novelty.

But, as I have said before, there's a HUGE difference between the TYPE of randomness that KARMA induces, and the randomness that a real PLAYER introduces. If you are looking to produce synth bleeps and modern loop style DJ music, you are in business. But if you are looking for a way to bring a player's variety to non-DJ music, I don't find this as effective.

There are a wide variety of tools out there in the computer world to help loopers get creative with loops. But little exists in any form to bring a more realistic performance from a machine. KARMA MIGHT be able to do this is some meaningful way, but it appears its' developer isn't really thinking along those lines.

And, at the end of the road, is still the question of CONTENT... There is a huge difference between the looper, who takes KARMA for a spin, happy to let the machine dictate where it is going, and the arranger user, who usually has a specific destination in mind. When we buy an arranger, we usually get 300-400 usable, different styles that cover a large percentage of our gigging and home playing needs. From playing KARMA equipped keyboards (an original Korg Karma, and M3's), there is nowhere NEAR this diversity, and selection. Some spoke of jazz? A tiny handful of jazz GE's come with your M3. Certainly not enough to entertain a crowd for an evening. But a BOTL arranger will come with enough to gig with, OOTB.

I'm afraid that, just like you COULD completely change an arranger by creating new styles for it that you COULD do a DJ type gig, you COULD create GE's for KARMA and make it gigable. But how many of us actually HAVE this skill? The large percentage (anybody want to argue 95%+?) of arranger users don't create styles from scratch, and GE's seem a LOT harder to create. Until the GE's are created that emulate REAL music as well as techno music, I don't honestly see much demand for KARMA from arranger users. At least, not at the price that it will add to their arranger.

As we've said for quite a while, IF arrangers had more modern styles and sounds, they would be a formidable alternative to a WS loopstation. And IF things like the M3 and M50 had sufficient GE's, and MoXS's and FantomG's had sufficient arps for traditional music, they would be formidable alternatives to the arranger.

But without the CONTENT, neither is. And it appears all too obvious that neither side is the slightest bit interested in the other's demographic. And no-one is interested in creating the content to enable this while copy protection is non-existent for their hard work. Looks like a stalemate to me... KARMA has been out for YEARS. And it is STILL of little use for traditional musics. Content HAS to accompany capability...