Hi All,

The recent thread about PA2x is very interesting, our local KB store have a 3 month old PA2X in mint condition @ £2000.00 which is £500.00 below new, is it better than Audya - you folks know much more about both I have never got close to a PA2x, if the Korg is close to the Audya and much more flexible why the huge price difference.

Regards

Tony

Well, in all fairness, the PA2 is a mature product well into its' second OS, the Audya is still in beta, with many promised and IMO essential features still unimplemented. But only you can decide for yourself if either is the arranger for you...

Pluses for the Audya are the live audio drums (and to a lesser extent, guitars) which have a realism pretty much unmatched. The problem is, of course, that realism comes at the expense of being able to do ANY editing and changing to it whatsoever. Depending on your needs, this may not be a problem.

Pluses for the Korg are, IMO, a level of voice editing that is only matched by TOTL WS's, great style editing flexibility, good live sound and a decent sampler. Plus the new DNC (think SA2) type voice allocation and a pretty good Guitar mode.

But, after all is said and done, the technical advantages of one over the other count little compared to how well they suit your preferences in styles... Every manufacturer is a little different, some make styles that are pretty busy, and leave you little to do but play a melody, some are more stripped down (not in number of parts, but in how busy they are) and leave you more room to play. How you react to those and feel about the issue is pretty much a personal thing, and, to be honest, only playing them and seeing if you feel swamped or left standing alone is really the only way to tell...

Of course, Audya owners will tell you 'buy an Audya' and Korg owners will tell you... well, you know what they'll tell you But sadly, the only way to be SURE is to try them for yourself.

The huge price difference comes from a couple of things. The Audya uses a lot of quite new technology, and was developed by quite a small company (over several years ) by themselves, so the cost of doing that has to be recovered. Plus, at least here in the States (and I expect in other countries, too), Ketron don't allow the dealer much margin to play with, so discounts are slim. Korg, OTOH, have a worldwide organization, and play the game similar to most other companies. If the dealer feels he will sell more at a slimmer margin, they let him. In these troubled economic times, you may be in luck when a dealer decides he would rather let a product go at a slim margin than carry it on his books too long...

But to make a decision between the two is up to you alone, sport...! Listen to all the demos, read all the manuals, try to decide what are your needs and priorities, and you should come to a decision. Then go and play them if you can, and decide afterwards

I will be very blunt on this topic, since i know the PA2X and also tried the Audya...
I will just say it bluntly, as it is now Audya is still AGES behind PA2X, i dont consider
only how they sound, both of them have their own good and bad sounding things
but if you take into consideration Functions, Easy od Use, Sampling, Editing, FX
Audya is still nowhere near, not even in devellopment stages. I know someone might
say this is my opinion but it isnt, it is very SAD and HARD FACTS, the things are just
not there, i am not making up anything, my opinion is a completely different thing then
the facts i stated above...and now, as of now there is no way i would choose an Audya
over a PA arranger...for any kind of work...it just lacks everything, completely.
Not to even mention that you cant create Styles...even when that incorporated the Audya
will still be far behind cuz there is GRAVE mistakes on the synth, they cant REDO the
SOUND EDITING which doesnt even exist, they cant put an FX processor which is garbage.
But this topic will get funny, just watch.



[This message has been edited by Nedim (edited 08-26-2009).]

But let's face it, Nedim, many arranger users simply don't use any of that editing, sampling or style creation stuff... Let's say you were one of those people, and have used both arrangers. If you wanted nothing more than to switch them on and use them for playing music, which one would you chose NOW...?

Take away all that fancy stuff, and the decision gets pretty hard, IMO... In all fairness, those Audya audio demos, if you liked the genre they were in, are pretty damn good. Mind you, so are some of the PA2X's...

Don't you love a tough decision?

Nedim,

I like your frankness, why tell everyone crap when you have been there, you played them both and it appears to be to some degree.

I might buy this PA2X at 2 grand.I could always stack it with the Audya.


Thanks for your comments

I don't think anyone in the market for a keyboard can go wrong with the PA2X

-It sounds great out of the box
-It can be tweaked till infinity
-KORG support is very good.
-Its very reliable with the current software version

Maybe in 2 years Audya could be on the same level or even better... but till that time, PA2X is the only viable choice for a 76 key arranger TOTL workstation

Tony,
Have you checked out the KorgPA site? http://korgpa.com/pa_root/en/news/news.html?en (manuals, demos, bonusware etc.) Listen to the PA800 (same sounds etc as a PA2XPRO) tutorial: http://korgpa.com/pa_root/en/support/tutorials.html

Also, check out the KorgPA forum at: http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=50

Lots to be learned here.

Lee S.

I sell and use both, and as Diki said, "the Audya leaves very little room for margin on the dealer level".

I have gigged with both boards and both of them have some very nice features, each have their downside too.

The Audya has some incredible styles that are very musical, and the drum and bass drive it very well. The overall tone and eq of especially the bottom end really give the rythm a driving force. But there are hiccups in the system, a bit outdated in some of the internal parts for upgrading. Some of the solo sounds are not as impressive as the Korg.

Like Diki said also, it depends on the type of music your playing. In my case I play allot of latin, older italian, and 70's type ballads, which I think the Audya is superior at. But the Korg's funk, new ballad, new pop styles are amazing and blow away the Audya's.

Vocalizers are how you make of it, my voice doesn't really benefit from the Korg's amazing vocalizer and mic processing, basically you can hear too much of my actual voice. I need allot of covering up.

The Audya's vocal section blankets my voice so it actually sounds better since its mostly electronics instead of my voice.

I sell allot more Pa2xpros than I sell Audyas. I have the ability to discount the Pa2xpro and still make some money. They are both great keyboards and they both have their place, its just like anything else, it needs to work for you. Just because the Korg has amazing editing functions doesn't mean the guy who just likes to play out of the box is going to benefit from that.

------------------
www.AudioworksCT.com
203.876.1133

"I have gigged with both boards and both of them have some very nice features, each have their downside too.

The Audya has some incredible styles that are very musical, and the drum and bass drive it very well. The overall tone and eq of especially the bottom end really give the rythm a driving force. But there are hiccups in the system, a bit outdated in some of the internal parts for upgrading. Some of the solo sounds are not as impressive as the Korg.

Like Diki said also, it depends on the type of music your playing. In my case I play allot of latin, older italian, and 70's type ballads, which I think the Audya is superior at. But the Korg's funk, new ballad, new pop styles are amazing and blow away the Audya's.

Vocalizers are how you make of it, my voice doesn't really benefit from the Korg's amazing vocalizer and mic processing, basically you can hear too much of my actual voice. I need allot of covering up.

The Audya's vocal section blankets my voice so it actually sounds better since its mostly electronics instead of my voice."

Frankieve: Thank`s a lot for these comments.
First, I haven`t tried an Audya yet. Heard all youtube demos and anything in the web.
I tried the PA2X for 2 weeks. Owning a Tyros2, I don`t "hear" ANY improvement at all. The drums are ... different? but not necesarily better. Programing is great, customization too. But, I already have that in my Tyros.
Although the Korg`s piano is better than Yamaha, I don`t feel is worthing the change.
Are the Audya pianos (internal or SuperSound?) comparable to Korg`s one? Is it better?
Some of the Tyros voices are outstanding, (the sax, for example) but all the nuances simple dissapear in a live performance, and frankly, is ridiculous to try to emulate a sax player in a live situation, it simple don`t work. And I mean replacing the player. I just prefer to play a synth lead, for example. Is more a "keyboard" appropriate.

And now, an interesting point: The vocalizer.
I don`t sing at all, but ocassionally do some chorus or background vocals. The Tyros vocalizer is... crap... I didn`t check the Korg`s one but I heard is superb. Is the Audya`s one in the the same league? When you say that your voice sounded better with Audya`s one was only doing harmonizing vocals or as solo, or even better, both???

I need desperately a new keyboard, but don`t liked at all the PA2X and I don`t want to loose a lot of money if Audya doesn`t work for me.

Thanks again!
Best Regards
Jose Pereira

PS: Excuse my bad english... but my spanish or portuguese are any better!

What I meant about the Audya vocal processor is that, I don't like my voice, so when I sing or use the harmonizer on the Audya there is allot of effects, reverb and a bit of what I like to call "analogue" type sound to it, it's a little dirty which helps me with my voice.

The korg is I think a more superior type of vocalizer and processor but for a voice like mine it too good. But once again it's my own feelings on this. everyones miles will differ.

The piano sound is not as good as the Korg's but I prefer it over the Korg because of how I use it. If you were to play as a solo piano act with out any background the Korg is the true winner, it's samples and nuances are un matched. But since I do not play solo piano the Audya piano has a very good bright piano that cuts through the mix, which I prefer.

Once again I like vanilla you like chocolate and someone else like anchovies.

They all work, just what works for you.

I can't make up your mind for you, but whatever you pick will be great, since you are picking from the top ones

hope this helps

------------------
www.AudioworksCT.com
203.876.1133

Just to answer to Diki:
If i was a Mortal user where i turn the synth on and just play i stil wont go for the Audya.
I would likely go for the PA2X again, at least for the tones of sounds and styles and easy
of use but the biggest feature to make me get a PA2X will always be the GuitarMode or
the styles made with it. Yeah i know, RealAudio Guitars but 3 chords? On os 2.0 its still
the exact same thing as before, once you hit Dim or Sus or anything else...QUACK!

Nedim,

I think you're right about the PA2x it's light years ahead of Audya, I have played it today and bought it, I am still going to keep the Audya see what Rev 3 brings can't imagine strings, theatre, controls, touch screen and much more goodies on the PA, Audya will need to chatch up, don't know how, it's half the price even new.

Whats going on ??? What are Ketron thinking!

Cheers Nedim

[This message has been edited by Tony Hughes (edited 08-22-2009).]

One thing I'm still confused about with the PA2xPRO is the "busy" styles. I've called the Korg factory a few times about it...can I make them "less busy"...and then save them as my basic "working" styles? I never seem to get a clear answer on that. I always get the feeling they're not understanding me.

So, to reiterate, I like that PA2x but those busy styles make me nervous. I'd be a slave to the style rather than the other way around.

Can I edit the style to a basic sound...and save it?

Lucky

Yup...in many different way, you have to be speciffic though.

Lucky, it's two different things when you talk about "less busy"...

You have the one, where you cut down on the NUMBER or Parts the style plays, which is a snap to do, then there's the issue of wanting the same NUMBER of Parts, but each individually (or maybe just one or two) is playing less complicatedly, more 'open' and airy. This is the one that is basically impossible to do, except by basically rewriting the style, yourself. Korg certainly aren't going to do it by request, it would cost them a lot of money to do...

Basically, if you can already play all the style parts at least as good as any of the style parts do (including the guitar parts and the drums), then you are in a good position to re-do the style to be the way you want it. But if your playing skills don't quite match the ROM rhythms, it'll be a lot tougher to do.

Thinning out playing rarely is as simple as just erasing a few of the notes. What you would play for a tune if they needed simple is pretty much completely different to what you'd play if they needed 'busy'...

I'm afraid it's down to you to make the styles simpler (if simpler playing WAS what you are talking about). Either that, or go hunt down translations of styles from arrangers simpler than Korg... Technics might be a good place to start. I've always thought their styles left a nice bit of room for the player... Roland too, for that matter (but I'm biased! ).

I doubt Korg are going to do an about face...

Hi Lucky,
as Diki suggested, mayber removing a couple of the tracks may help, also shortening the length of the pattern.
I had one of the style group members ask for a style that would work with fascination & moon river.
Went thru the waltzes, none sounded quite right. I decided to edit slow waltz 2.
Muted all the instruments except drum & bass, then unmuted them one by one. Guitars & strings worked, but the e.piano messed it up. Also noticed bass & drums got busier in bars 4 & 8.
Possibly cutting the pattern down to 2 or 4 bars should help.
The above are very easy fixes.

Diki mentioned technic styles . Some have been converted & downloadable http://www.korgpa.com/pa_root/en/extra/bonusware.html?en

The early technic styles were nice & simple.

I kept most of mine & convert them if I need them.
Technics were prolific with the old ballroom styles.

best wishes
Rikki

Hi Tony,
congratulations on your new PA2x.
Hopefully we'll also see you at the Korg forums.

best wishes
rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tony Hughes:
[B]

Congrats! You wont regret doing it.

Tony,
Congrats on your decision.
I honestly believe if you take the time to really learn all it can do you will be happy.

This is gong to take some time to be ready to Gig with it, IMHO.

Also, I would go to the Korg aranger forum and spend some time looking over the topics as there is a LOT there.

There is a 3 DVD set available from Frank at Audiowerks...I have it and I think it's prety good. But if you are very trained already on a Pa1XPRO then it might not be as good for you.I had a PA1XPRO, a few years ago, but I had forgot most of the details...so the DVD set was good for me to get rolling on the PA2. It is done on a PA1X, but pretty much everything covered applys to the PA2.

One thing or sure...we (at the forum) will help you anyway we can...it's a nice family.

Lee S.

Diki and Rikki (hey...they rhyme)

Reading your posts, I have the feeling that my inclination to buy a PA2xPro is going right out the window.

If I read you correctly, I can lighten up a style easy enough by removing layers of accompaniment, but to lighten up the basic snare, drum, hi-hat, etc I'd better know how to program.

So let's say, a basic easy-4 pattern (fox-trot). If I could strip the basic pattern down to a simple bass/snare (and hi-hat in between), it's still going to have to blend in with the other (accompaniment) parts of the style (if I plan on bringing them in). Otherwise, I'm going to have to edit them too.

To put it another way....it's possible to edit the styles to exactly what I want, but I'm going to need a Black Belt in programming? Correct?

This really s*#@ks. Why couldn't they just do as someone here said? Sell individual styles like they sell ITunes?

This is the reason I'm still playing a 10 year old instrument. Basic patterns that I can build on musically!

BTW...I do this retiree event every year for about 600 people. I throw 4 EV speakers on my board and in 12 years still no one has complained about the sound. They actually compliment me. The playing is really so much more important than the machine.

Lucky

I think you may be over complicating it (and us too ), Lucky. One of the things that IS easy to do on Korg's is to swap parts around from style to style. So, if you have a too busy drum track, and can find a less busy drum track from another style that fits, it's fairly easy to swap. And, as Rikki points out, there are a LOT of Technics, Roland and earlier Korg styles floating around that may be a lot simpler. These might be a good source of patterns to bring into the style you want to create... (or be just right as is)

Bottom line is, it honestly doesn't matter WHAT you buy. If you want things to be EXACTLY the way you want them to be, you are going to have to do it yourself! For a start off, what programmer knows EXACTLY what you want in the first place...? And how sure is he that anyone else wants it that way, either?

The whole problem with buying styles is, with no copy protection, there's very little in it for a talented style maker. He'll sell a few, then SOMEONE is bound to upload it somewhere, and there goes the rest of his money! Until they build in the kind of copy protection that iTunes has (and even that is circumventable if you are determined enough) into the arrangers themselves, the people that make styles have no way to recoup their investment. That is, unless you have the kind of money to pay for bespoke programming (for you alone) Let's say it take a day to make a good style. You got enough to pay someone a good day's wage for each style? I didn't think so

Personally, I think your best bet is to look into older styles, either from Korg or translations... ask around, see if someone will post a few examples. You may find them to be all you need. Thing is, tyou still need to play them on the latest, greatest, just for the sounds... A simple pattern, played through a far better drum kit and instrument sounds is going to sound better than the original... (hopefully! )

What are you using right now? It may be possible to translate those very styles over to Korg (or whatever you chose). There's a lot of options, Lucky.

Don't give up, yet

Hi Lucky,
sounds like we're complicating things.

Simple styles should be easier to create than the more complex ones that are in the keyboards nowadays.
With each new generation of boards , the styles get more complex.
Some of the styles I get the most use out of , are the ones I've put together from bits & pieces iesimple arpeggiated piano styles, with strings, bass & drums.


If you like, send me a couple of the type of styles you're refferring to & I'll see if they can be converted easily.
I've got quite a number of old styles myself that I haven't gotten round to converting, just be interested to see if we're talking similar type of styles.

I don't know if you actually sing or just play the keyboard, if it's keyboard only, one advantage with the new boards would be great sounds for melody parts.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lucky2Bhere:
[b]Diki and Rikki (hey...they rhyme)



[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 08-24-2009).]

Here I am again

I need to take a second look at the PA2X. Right now, I don`t have any access to it, and there´s nothing in youtube that really sounds good. (Sorry eastern players and artists, isn´t my style preference...)
There´s an amazing video where the player does a demo of a heavy distorted guitar, EXCELLENT!! But, I use very little a solo guitar like that. Does anybody knows about good demos or videos (specially using internal styles) of latin, jazz, funk and ballads? I prefer demos not sequenced (I heard all the demos at Korgpa.com)
Please, I would like to hear the PA2X sounding less "cheesy" if it is possible. As I mentioned before, the heavy guitar video demo is amazingly good, but that is.
As anybody here says that the PA2X is highly customizable, at least I think its sound could be greatly improved. I remember when I checked the PA2X for several days, it always sounded as toyish (or worse) as my Tyros2. I didn`t touch any parameter because it was my friend`s keyboard. (right now he`s using a Motif XS7 with smf. Sounds superb, but have no work...)
Any help will be gratly appreciatted!!

Best Reagards
Jose Pereira

PS: once again, sorry for my bad english, but my spanish or portuguese AREN´T better...

Hello Jose,

I'm not a great player but I can put some Pa2xpro videos on you tube if you like.

------------------
www.AudioworksCT.com
203.876.1133

Hi Frankieve

I`m so biased for the Audya because your demos!!!
Could you do something like that? I mean, a series of styles from the different categories, but please show as much as you could of latin, jazz and funk.
And THANK´S A LOT for that!

Kind Regards
Jose Pereira

Jose...
A VERY IMPORTANT thing on the PA2XPRO.
Out of the box (in the store) the MASTER EQ is OFF!

So, You must go to Global mode, Master EQ and turn it on and adj it to your sound system/room.

Then, assuming a good sound system in sterio..it sounds AWESOME!

Mine sounds very PRO quality with the 2 Mackie HR824 monitors I use.

Lee S.

Some more sites to look at:
http://www.tbleck.de/h2-keyboard.htm
http://www.irishacts.com/ezypal/index.php?do=catalog&c=korg_triton_%2526_pa_series_libraries&i=style_pack_volume_1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKqni_QTimQ&eurl
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08XNUo26600&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjcdWYnPkhs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2R_3HAoepY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TICFqWF2Z6I&
feature=related

This site is the one of the BEST! http://korgpa2xpro.yolasite.com/pa2x-pro-style-demos.php

lots of food to make up your mind, good luck on your decision.

Vangelis

DIKI………

I think you may be over complicating it (and us too ),

THERE’S A VERY GOOD CHANCE I MIGHT BE!

One of the things that IS easy to do on Korg's is to swap parts around from style to style. So, if you have a too busy drum track, and can find a less busy drum track from another style that fits, it's fairly easy to swap.

GOT THAT PART

And, as Rikki points out, there are a LOT of Technics, Roland and earlier Korg styles floating around that may be a lot simpler. These might be a good source of patterns to bring into the style you want to create... (or be just right as is)

WOULD THAT BE TO CONVERT THEM INTO A STYLE THE KORG COULD USE DIRECTLY OR USE THEM AS EXAMPLES TO COPY (IN COMPOSING A KORG STYLE)?

Personally, I think your best bet is to look into older styles, either from Korg or translations... ask around, see if someone will post a few examples. You may find them to be all you need. Thing is, tyou still need to play them on the latest, greatest, just for the sounds... A simple pattern, played through a far better drum kit and instrument sounds is going to sound better than the original... (hopefully! )

DIKI, I HEAR WHAT YOU’RE SAYING. UNFORTUNATELY “TIME” IS A BIG FACTOR. I JUST DON’T HAVE THAT KIND OF TIME. I ORIGINALLY THOUGHT YOU COULD JUST TRIM DOWN THE ONBOARD PA2 SOUNDS EASY ENOUGH, BUT NOW I COULD SEE THAT’S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

What are you using right now? It may be possible to translate those very styles over to Korg (or whatever you chose). There's a lot of options.

I’M USING AN OLD ROLAND. I HANG ON TO IT BECAUSE A) IT STILL DOES THE JOB, AND B) I’VE AMASSED HUNDREDS OF STYLES (1,215 AT LAST COUNT)…MANY THAT I REALLY LIKE AND THAT COMPLEMENT MY PLAYING STYLE

I’M GOING TO RIKKI’S POST NOW. SHE MENTIONED PREVIOUSLY THAT SHE MIGHT BE ABLE TO CONVERT SOME OF THOSE ROLAND STYLES TO KORG.

LUCKY

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rikkisbears:
[B]

..SEE FOLLOWING

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lucky2Bhere:
[b]

Simple styles should be easier to create than the more complex ones that are in the keyboards nowadays. With each new generation of boards , the styles get more complex.

SO I’VE NOTICED!

If you like, send me a couple of the type of styles you're referring to & I'll see if they can be converted easily.

RIKKI…..YOU WERE A SWEETHEART WHEN YOU MADE THAT OFFER A FEW MONTHS AGO (I DIDN’T FORGET) AND YOU’RE A SWEETHEART ALL OVER AGAIN TRYING TO HELP ME HERE AGAIN. I’LL TAKE YOU UP ON IT THIS TIME. I’M EMAILING YOU A 30 SECOND SNIPPET OF ME PLAYING “BIG BAND” (ONE THAT I USE A LOT). YOU’LL HEAR THE SIMPLICITY OF THE STYLE (WHICH MAKES IT EASIER FOR ME TO PLAY OVER IT). I’LL ALSO SEND YOU A HANDFUL OF .STL BIG BAND (ROLAND STYLES) IF YOU WANT TO GET AN IDEA OF WHAT YOU'RE UP AGAINST.

I don't know if you actually sing or just play the keyboard, if it's keyboard only, one advantage with the new boards would be great sounds for melody parts.

I SING ALSO. AND…YES…I’D LOVE TO BE WORKING WITH ONE OF THE CONTEMPORARY BOARDS. BUT ONLY IF IT’S NOT GOING TO CRAMP MY STYLE. I’VE LEARNED I CAN ONLY BE “ME” AND PLAY LIKE “ME” RATHER THAN PLAY LIKE THE BOARD.

I’LL SEND THOSE ATTACHMENTS TO YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS RIGHT NOW.

LUCKY

Sez who?????

Frank...I noticed you can play all different styles. So why don't you do 15-20 seconds each of the basic ones (fox trot, waltz, big band, cha-cha,...ETC). That would help ME a lot.

Those Korg demo's were produced by scientists working in a laboratory somewhere in Transylvania. I'd like to hear what
an ordinary person sounds like on it, considering I consider myself an ordinary person!

Lucky

Appears to me that the Audya went out the window on this thread about 28 replies up, I got the message 28 to PA2x 1 to Audya

Regards

Tony

Thats what happens when you compare a 19 years old teenage girl to a 65 years old lady...

Just curious, but have you tried any new Roland's, Lucky? (not that there ARE any 'new' MOTL and TOTL Roland's, but you know what I mean )

They play those legacy Roland styles pretty much as is, and have absolutely the BEST tools onboard to allow you to migrate them to newer sounds with the least fuss... E60 for lightness, G70 for the harmonizer, etc. (seems you want a 76)...

Some very nice condition used ones floating around (my backup I just bought looks like showroom).

An OS you are familiar with, great new drumkits and pianos, organs, saxes, etc.. True four Var, six Fill operation, Markers for live SMF restructuring, great harmonizer (on G70), and the great Cover and Makeup Tools you hear me brag about all the time...

Maybe the G70 is too heavy, but it seems to me a nice used E60 might fit the bill, save you a chunk of money, and at least allow you to continue using your styles of choice through a better sound set....

The devil you know, and all that....

I sent a few Roland STL styles to Rikki and she converted them with EMC to Korg styles that really sound great on her PA800. I was going to send the following privately, but I thought I would do it here so that anyone who had a comment could do so.
________________________

Hi Rikki...

Thanks for your efforts so far with this style conversion situation.

...random thoughts...

I Googled EMC and found that it was the StyleWorks that I read about periodically here.

The program looks complicated (but perhaps it just LOOKS complicated). How long have you been working with it?

From the MP3 you sent me, I'm assuming you were able to convert the basic style...AND...the intro, ending, and fills.

I was reading bits and pieces about StyleWorks. Is Korg the company who puts it out for their keyboards? Or, does just a stripped version come with the Korg keyboard purchase?

I read that the StyleWorks is NOT successful in converting ALL Roland files...that it's hit and miss??? What do you think?

How long did it take you to convert the "big band" I sent you?

Do you think if I bought this PA2 that I could convert a large amount of my Roland styles and would they be complete conversions (with intro's, endings's and fills) that I can use on the Korg?

That style sounded dynamite on your PA800.

Lucky

Diki...

There's hope on the horizon after all. It looks like there's a good chance I can convert my present Roland styles to play on the Korg. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

Yes, I played the G-70 in the store for hours when it first came out. Loved the thing, absolutely loved it. And it was pretty enough to use as a Playboy centerfold even! But I came down to Earth before I parted with my money realizing it was too heavy to be carrying around.

I also tried the GW-8 but wasn't impressed. And the E-50 and the E-80. E-50 was too basic and the E-80 was gargantuan no matter how good it sounded. I couldn't find an E-60.

I don't think I can use my present Roland STL styles in a contemporary Roland keyboard. Roland advised that although they were the same "extension" (STL), they are NOT interchangeable. Does anyone really know?

Yes, that G70 has a lot that I like about it. Especially in the looks dept. It's really colorful and I love colors in front of me with vivid LED screens. The Korg really fails in that department. Bland appearance and the screen is too "busy"...it leaves a lot to be desired.

I don't know how much you paid for your 2nd G-70, but last year I had made a contact with a music store that sells Roland G-70 demo models (from stores around the country) at great discounts. The going price for a slightly used demo model (before they ran out of them) was around $1600. I told the fellow to call me if they come in again.

Lucky

Hi Lucky
I've had EMC conversion programs since about 1992, give or take a couple of years.
Doing the actual conversion, is simple,
( only takes a minute or two) BUT, the tweaking may turn out to be simple or a major project.
Unbeleivably the 2 styles you sent me,were really easy to tweak. I changed 2 or 3 of the sounds, & adjusted the volume of each of the style tracks. Not knowing what the original style sounds like made it a bit harder for me to balance the volumes between the different instruments, & I may not have chosen the best version sax or trombone. The emc conversion chose the basic gm version of the instruments, I decided to try different ones..

THe conversion contained all the variations, intro's & endings, but only 3 fills.

I don't think the free downloadable version for the Korg is a complete version.

I had a number of G70 /E 80 styles, some seemed to work ok, others would have required too much editing. I only ran them thru emc roughly, to decide which ones might be of use, the rest I thru out.

Older less complex styles, I think convert better.

Don't dash out & buy the Korg.
Send me some more of your favourite styles ( stuff you can't do without)
I'll run them thru conversion process, without tweaking, they only take about a minute each to convert.
Then, when you get a chance, take them & try them on a korg. IF they all convert as easily ( fingers crossed ) as the 2 you sent me, they'd only require maybe replacing some instruments & adjusting volumes.( EASY ) Best part is , you have the roland for comparison for closest sounding instrument & volume adjustment between the tracks.

Wish my yammie styles converted as easily as those 2 rolands.

I've got a heap of roland styles myself.
I owned the G800, VA7 & the RA series.
I just never got around to converting.

I normally just convert & tweak as I require.

best wishes
Rikki

Lucky[/B][/QUOTE]

If we are talking only about factory styles most of them would work since conversion puts
GM instruments on tracks and then further editing can be applied and done.

I've never met a Roland style that DIDN'T play OK in my G70. So that makes it the same for E50/60/80.

Thing is, most of them call up the legacy sounds, so sound pretty similar. But as I keep saying, the Makeup Tools section makes it a snap to convert to the newer sounds and kits, and easily adjust them so they sound their best.

What was too bare-bones about the E50? The E60 is essentially the same, but with a good 76 (not as good as the G70!) and the D-Beam (which I use to easily drop to Bass & Drums in a piece, but has many other uses). It still has most of those V-Drum kits, which I find to be one of the most significant improvements over my G1000... (did I miss it, or have you yet to say which Roland you currently have?). You could probably pick one of these up VERY inexpensively....

Hi Rikki,

You’ve been doing this since 1992? Veryyyyyyyy impressive! You did a great job in picking the right instrumentation on what I sent you.

So, you’re saying that since my styles are older ones, there’s a greater chance of them going through the conversion process without any glitches (or only minor ones)?

A question here. I forgot that my particular Roland plays styles this way: I’ll play a basic style, then I can hit a button and go into any enhancement of that style. So….if I were to play that (converted) style on the Korg, will I then still have access to the “enhanced” style? And access to the same fills, intro’s, and endings that I‘m used to?

I was reading about StyleWorks at a few sites. One said that if you use a MIDI file of your style (that you want to convert) then there’s a greater chance of success. If that is so, shouldn’t I just let the style run on my keyboard and use the onboard recorder to record it as a MIDI file. And press the “fill” button and use the “intro” and “ending” pattern?

I’m thinking this. I only use about a dozen styles regularly. Should I send them all to you as MIDI files or STL’s and see if you can’t convert them successfully. If I can get those under my belt, then my needs for a new keyboard won’t be so critical.

I also thought about what Diki said. I’m not in the driver’s seat anymore where I can pick what I need in a board. Times ARE a-changing. I’m going to have to make concessions or buy nothing at all (which I still might do).

But….a step at a time. Would you mind working with those dozen or so styles?

Lucky

BTW: I called Korg again yesterday. It’s so sad for us consumers. They know nothing about the programming end of it. And what they DO know about you almost have to extract it out of them. They volunteer very little, you have to come up with the questions. Their lack of enthusiasm is such a contrast to their marketing talents. But, in all fairness, Roland is the same way. And with Ketron, you have no one at all to call! Enough moaning and groaning!

Diki.....I'm just saying what Roland told ME. But I'm coming to the conclusion that I should believe only half of what's told me. The problem is determining which half?

I didn't know you were also doing conversions. I was listening to some of my styles. In addition to the regular dance styles, I have many that are for one song only, such as the Beach Boys, Beatles, Elvis, etc. Also ethnic dances, ragtime, Strauss waltzes, Macarena, etc. And they don't sound "dated." I'd really like to use many of them.

Korg told me they have the Kaoss pad for their "D-beam." I've never used either so I don't know. But I was playing with the M3 and was able to modulate the horn patch with my hand with their controller.

Roland is introducing a new high-end electronic accordion so I'm wondering what they have in mind with the keyboards.

Don't forget the following:

Roland Connect: 2009 Roland Connect logo On September 1, 2009, Roland will launch a new and innovative lineup of musical products via a unique web exhibition called Roland Connect 2009. The virtual event will debut some exciting new products — from a professional stage instrument to desktop home-studio gear — covering a wide range of musical genres and product categories. The site will be officially opened to the public on September 1, 2009.

Lucky

Lucky, I'm not sure what you mean by a button that 'enhances' the style. I am thinking that this possibly is the Basic and Advanced buttons on the older arrangers. Correct? You STILL haven't simply told us what MODEL of older Roland you have, this would help.

But if it IS that Basic/Advanced button, all that was was Roland's older way of triggering different Variations. In truth, even back then Roland had a four Variation system (but only the two fills). They were Original, Original Advanced, Variation and Variation Advanced. Back in those days, Roland had basically a 'Verse' 'Chorus' kind of structure, with the 'Advanced' button playing a pattern that was basically similar to its' Original/Variation source, with simply more Parts added.

These kind of styles come in perfectly to newer Roland's, as they have four Variations (now Roland simply use Var1-4 as the names, but tend to structure them as a more steady progression in intensity, so 1 & 2 are more different than Basic and Advanced used to be). The two fills from the legacy styles are mapped into the SIX fill slots in the new style structure, and basically ( ) the style plays pretty much the way you hear it now.

I certainly have NEVER found an old Roland style that didn't play in my G70...

But yes, you MIGHT want to wait until after the Sept 1st to make any decision (doesn't look like you are in any kind of hurry, anyway!), but my bet is no new TOTL or MOTL arrangers (I'm afraid I put GW-8 and Prelude at the BOTL ).

BTW, it's interesting to hear Elvis, the Beatles and the Beach Boys labeled as 'not dated'! How easy it is to forget that that music was from 40-50 years ago Time flies when we are enjoying ourselves, eh?

Hi Lucky,
yes, roughly round about the time EMC first came out. I had it for KN2000,Korg i2, & Roland E86.
Keyboard junkie from way back.

Earlier styles appear to convert better than the newer ones, they were less complex.
ie I find it easier to convert my 3 year old psr1500 styles than the new T3 styles.
No megavoices to contend with. Also I don't use EMC for converting Yamaha styles, I convert from a midifile of the style.

I don't really use it that much anymore.
It's sort of a security blanket for me, knowing if I sell a keyboard & go to another brand, I still have access to any old styles , should I need them.

The styles I converted will play back in this order
vari 1 original Basic
vari 2 original Advanced ( enhanced)
vari 3 variation basic
vari 4 variation Advanced (enhanced)

Fills I programmed
f1 orig to orig advanced
f2 orig adv. to vari basic
break varibasic to vari advanced.

Fills can also be programmed so that when you hit fill 1, it automatically goes to vari2. Hit fill 2, goes to vari 3, hit break goes to vari 4.
Both intro's & endings are there including the minor versions.
There is also a 3rd intro & ending that could be programmed ie a count in for intro 3 & maybe a shortened 1 bar ending for ending 3.

Before selling any of my old keyboards, apart from saving the styles, I used to also record a midifile of the style just in case emc didn't convert it properly.
Only the ones I thought I may use again one day.

Basically used to record it as
C maj chord
Intro 1 to vari 1 to fill to vari 2 to fill to vari 3 to fill to vari 4 to end 1.

Next Intro2 to End 2

Next C minor chord for each of the intro's & endings.

Kept this stuff for years on floppy disks.
Didn't realize that they become corrupted even if they're not used. Lost the lot including a lot of my old keyboard styles.
One ray of sunshine though, I was going thru some of my old stuff yesterday & found the hexdecimal codes for converting my old Technic Piano styles back into KN5000 styles. My piano styles I'd saved to cd rom. In technic piano format EMC couldn't convert them, now I have access to dozens of my old Technics styles that I thought I'd lost forever. A lot of Bigband & Ballroom styles.
Be interesting to see if they convert as easily as the Roland, my KN7000 styles didn't.

Since you own both keyboards, converting the Roland style to Korg , from midifile, is an option, it's more work, I find it far more accurate, one has to do their own drum remapping IF required ( I convert my psr styles this way) & EMC isn't used.

Send me the styles you're reffering to & I'll try converting them. Hopefully they'll work as easily as the other 2.
If not, maybe we'll give the midifile option a go, but I'll have to explain the best way of recording it for the korg to turn it into a style.

best wishes
Rikki

You know, rikki, that's a GREAT idea for ANYONE migrating across manufacturers... or even giving up on arrangers and going to sequencers and SMF's (this would at least give a great database of good drum grooves and guitar playing).

Tell you what else would be real handy alongside it... make an audio recording of the sequence, too. You never know, a few years from now, if you are going to be able to remember exactly what the style sounded like, what the drum sounds were, etc.. But if you had a nice mp3 with the sequence, it would make conversion a snap...

OMG,
Rikki, Diki,
I wish I would have thought of both of those before I sold my T2. Thanks for the idea. I guess one could beg, borrow, buy, steel a ?? keyboard of your past for long enough to go back and do it??

Or ask a friend to help out that has one still.

Like Rikki said, only the stuff you really like and may want to convert or re-create.

Lee S.

Hi Diki,
main reason I started doing it, was because I knew how often EMC used to get things wrong , especially the drum tracks. I actually had the 3 boards I mentioned at the same time, so I was able to do comparisons of the conversions. You can't really blame the software when the styles I was converting were using non gm drums, & the destination instrument didn't have the same drum type available. EMC picked sopmething bland to replace it ( ie a hihat tap), & the rhythm no longer sounded quite the same.
I've always kept copies of the instrument & especially the drum maps.
Anyway I recorded the midifiles, I did actually do some audio recordings, must have been to cassete tape & eventually I had a tiny digital tape recorder, but mainly I recorded drum tracks, (drums have always been a hassle for me, trying to get the balance right between hihats, bass drum etc)

Only thing I wasn't smart enough to do , was find a better storage solution when I gave the music up back in 1999-.
Over the 3 years in storage, the floppy disks corrupted, the Atari & harddrive died.

Fortunately I got back most of my Roland styles when I bought a VA7 back in early 2000.

My Technics styles fared slightly better,
I had replaced my KN5 with a Technics piano,
converted all my styles across to the piano
( which EMC doesn't read ), so I had complete backups in piano format.

It's a pity your idea of mp3 recordings of styles, didn't take off, when you suggested it a couple of years ago.
Would have been of great help to style "Convertors".

I don't have the mp3 option in my PA800,
( I did consider buying it with the prize money I received from the Korg forum styles competition) I've never really gotten into recording though, except for the couple of Ejam tunes & they were done in PT12 with a lot of hassles. haahaa

best wishes
Rikki

Well, I'm still up for it if anyone is interested.

Basically, the idea is to take a short mp3 recording of your ROM styles' Divisions, and post it to a database somewhere. Doesn't need to be a fancy recording, a relatively low bitrate mp3 (128-160kbps) would suffice. But having an audio recording of the original would go a LONG way towards making drumkit, bass and other sound decisions a LOT easier.

Of course, EMC does little else but make a 'best guess' when doing conversions, and as arrangers get more complex, Mega voices, guitar modes, non-standard drumkits, etc., it is going to get harder and harder to know EXACTLY what the conversion is supposed top sound like unless, as Rikki was, you are lucky enough to have all the arrangers at your fingertips. Few of us are...

This would be the answer, IMO.

It would take a little time to put together, but each style division only need be two to four bars long. Even if the style is longer, you are primarily going for the sounds and sound balance, and that is usually apparent right from the start. Add the endings and Intros, you are done...

Especially as many arrangers have mp3/.wav recording built in, this might not be as difficult a task as you might think. And if more than one person with the same arranger were interested, the task could be divided...

I still hope that one day we can get this off the ground. With these economic times, it makes sense to consider conversions rather than a new arranger every three years or so...

Hi Lee,
for psr styles you don't need to record the midifiles. Just change the style's extension to .mid. Instant midifile with
MARKERS that can easily be altered to suit the Korg. Plus the psr style variations/fills are normally recorded in maj7th chords, perfect for the Korg iseries ntt setting. This way you can get away with recording only the 1 cv for each of the variations & fills.
The intro's & endings, some are done in Maj & Min versions, some are done based on maj7th chord.

When you basically play back a psr style as a midifile, when you get to the intro's & endings, on certain sections you'll hear a jumbled mess. Reason is the maj & min intro/endings are stacked on top of each other, so you hear both playing at the same time. If this happens, mute tracks 1 to 8 & you'll most likely hear the major I/E.
Mute tracks 9, 12,13,14,15, 16. You'll hear the minor version. When I convert one of these midifiles to a korg style, I basically tack any minor I/E on to the end of the midifile & delete bits accordingly.

The mp3 recordings that Diki suggested are a great idea. Really helps to know what the style is supposed to sound like.

best wishes
Rikki

Hi Diki,
I've been looking for a good excuse to get the mp3 option for my pa800.
I'll do a bit of checking.
I'm hopeless at doing it via pc, it's something that's never really interested me.
best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Diki:
[B] Well, I'm still up for it if anyone is interested.

Basically, the idea is to take a short mp3 recording of your ROM styles'

I'm thinking of using my Zoom... it has an option to automatically stop and start recording when it hears a gap, so all I have to do is call up the style, hit Intro 4 (I think I'm just going to record Intro 4 and Ending 4, the complex ones, they pretty much usually have the same sounds as 1,2 &3), and press start. then I play each of the Var's, (auto fill on), Ending 4, and wait for it to end, the Zoom will stop recording and re-arm, call up the next style, rinse and repeat...

It ought to be a cool rainy day project (or rainy week!)

I did that one many of my machines, including
workstations, recordging the Aregios in Midi
and MP3, as Diki said, each style all elements.
I usually do it in my DAW and then keep an archive
of all of them, its really easy for conversion.

Hi Diki,
for me the midi side of the recording wouldn't probably be all that difficult.
Setup up a generic song ie intro v1, f1, v2 f2 etc in step record mode, & just change the style ( might need a few to cater for the different length intro's) & maybe limit the vari's to 4 bars?? or something, or else these files could get really large.

It's the mp3 part that I'm not good at. PT12 saves as a wav, then I have to put it thru a wav editor & save. The editor I've got's pretty basic, came as part of my dell laptop software and only saves at 128?? ( I think)
best wishes
Rikki

Hi All,

I am going to get you all back on track with my setup of this thread, Audya -v- Korg PA2x.

I now have both.

LOADING UPGRADES Audya -v- Korg PA2x.
The Audya you need a PC near to the KB and a long USB cable, Korg you just need a memory stick, Ketron have made the whole thing a painful, Korg is simple.

The Korg manual is 1" thick the Audya is half of that, Korg manual graphs are clear and readable the Ketron are not readable.

The Songs in the Song list in the Korg are badly translated for instance MY WAY say by Frank Sinatra would be named THE WAY I DO THINGS its called reading between the lines.

Auyda does not have a SONG LIST as such - well about 10 compositions so they can't be blamed for getting this one wrong.

I will keep you informed on the fly!

Regards


[This message has been edited by Tony Hughes (edited 08-30-2009).]

If you want to drive a LCD screen off the Korg you need to dig into your pocket and add a driver card even then I can't see how you would connect to a PC LCD screen the plug set-up looks like a full TV only _ that would be difficult at gig a 42" Plasma to sing to!!!!! The Ketron just plugs in thus the diffence in price

Hi Tony!

Yes! Finally a true comparison.

As far as I remember, the styles in PA2X are weak (sounds robotic, more quantized than Tyros2) and for everyone here, I think have listened a few Audya`s styles. Audya wins.
Now, we also know that there`s almost no sound programability in Audya (Korg forte) but, how Audya`s sound out of the box compared to PA2X? Please compare Pianos, accordions, saxes, brass, guitars, well, mostly acoustic sounds (PA2X wins in synth sounds, no doubt)
Which one is more intuitive for working? (think as you never reads the manual first)
And please, compare several SMF between machines too.

Oh, and finally, with a good PA, which one sounds more full, alive?
Thanks in advance!
Best Reagards
Jose Pereira

Jose,

The string sounds on the Korg are far better than Audya

The music rest on the Audya was design by Pennine Faraoni, the Korg rest was made from a crash damaged scrap Ferrari and welded up by a blind man, or it's off an old Bontempi.

Looking at the Korg PA2x rest it's simialr to going into a gents toilet and find the urinal bowl has been fitted up to high!

Well Jose you wanted a honesty opinion it's not all in the sound quality you know!

Why don't Korg and Ketron share their samples get the best and then it is all down to ergonomics, led, buttons and price

The rear connection labels are great on the Korg you can see at a glance what goes where. The Audya you will pull it off it's stand and drop it on the floor to see the connections if the KB is up against a wall.

Regards Jose

I still can't see the £1700.00 diffence perhaps my eyes are going as well as my ears!

I am going to take the top of both and examine the technology, I think a cost to build at the factory for an Audya will be no more than £750.00.may be less.

[This message has been edited by Tony Hughes (edited 08-30-2009).]

Hi Tony,
congratulations on the keyboards.

My Ketron SD1 manual was one of the worst I've ever tried to make sense of.

I don't know if it's also the case with the PA2x, but, there was an additional manual on the cd rom that came with my PA800.
An advanced manual on sound editing & sampling etc.

The obscure song names are annoying, there is translated song book floating around.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tony Hughes:
[B]

Rikki,

Thanks.

It's rather simple the same Italian who transulates the names of the songs, writes the operating manual for Ketron, he's call Man-u-well, get it, it's a joke!!

Sorry they don't get much better!

The Korg PA2x manual is twice as thick as the Audya I haven't started to read it yet.

Perhaps best not to just bum along - only when in doubt read the man-u-well.

Regards

[This message has been edited by Tony Hughes (edited 08-30-2009).]