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#269444 - 08/18/09 06:44 AM Re: Survival or Death to the Arranger keyboard ?
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Quote:
I'm sorry, but there I have to disagree with you. In live use, most arrangers, and especially the G70, completely blow any modern WS out of the water for ease of use, live.


Not in KORG land these days. For real-time controls the arranger functions have been merged with the workstations, and some of what the workstation could do has made its way into their arrangers. The lines that separate them in the KORG world are very blur right now. The PA2X engine is like a Triton Series engine with a 16 part COMBI mode actually in PROG mode. Pretty advanced stuff really.

It's almost like KORG Italy get every other system from KORG Inc handed to them except for the arranger functions. Even though that's not the case entirely.

James.

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#269445 - 08/18/09 07:07 AM Re: Survival or Death to the Arranger keyboard ?
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15566
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
I've been away from the work stations for quite a few years, so my knowledge is limited to some degree about what they can and cannot do on the fly. If I recall correctly, they were never intended for live performances and quite cumbersome when it came to utilizing multiple functions. I have to agree with Diki--the TOTL arranger is currently the best way to go for live performances, particularly when you are often setting up two to four songs in advance.

Cheers,

Gary
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#269446 - 08/18/09 07:23 AM Re: Survival or Death to the Arranger keyboard ?
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5355
Loc: English Riviera, UK
OT

Hi Seamaster
I don’t want to be picky, but in a previous post you couldn’t tell the difference between a Tyros 2 style and an OAA style, therefore your observations are not based on a good grounding of what is old and new. (Also ask any studio (Or Pro VSTi user) which sounds more accurate, Steinberg’s Hypersonic VSTi (One of the sound engines used in OAS 7) or a Circa 1985 PSR, and once again you will find yourself in error.

Hi Diki
Most VST manufactures have now developed their sound engines for live play. (East West with Play, NI with Kore 2 etc)
Also with an open type keyboard the VSTi is used to supplement what is already there, (Totally different to VSTi only systems) so you don’t need the same cutting edge processing.
As to T3, have a look on the Yamaha forums and you will find most have upgraded from a T2 to a T3. (Particularly in Europe)
The cost of the computer hardware to run the latest Wersi OAS (If you need to upgrade) is less then £200. ($200 in the US, where everything is a lot cheaper then the UK)

BOT
Whichever way you look at it, arrangers (Although not in today’s format) will be around for many years yet. (The organ market was supposed to be dead, yet manufactures are bringing out new models left, right and centre)

Regards

Bill
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English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#269447 - 08/18/09 07:25 AM Re: Survival or Death to the Arranger keyboard ?
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Hi travlin'easy

But not all workstations are equal. What Diki said does not apply to KORG.
I can't think of one feature the Pa2X can do from it's front panel that the M3 or OASYS can't. But I can think of plenty the Pa2X can't do the M3 and OASYS can.

The tables have been greatly reversed.

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 08-18-2009).]

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#269448 - 08/18/09 07:40 AM Re: Survival or Death to the Arranger keyboard ?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by abacus:
Hi Seamaster I don’t want to be picky, but in a previous post you couldn’t tell the difference between a Tyros 2 style and an OAA style, therefore your observations are not based on a good grounding of what is old and new. (Also ask any studio (Or Pro VSTi user) which sounds more accurate, Steinberg’s Hypersonic VSTi (One of the sound engines used in OAS 7) or a Circa 1985 PSR, and once again you will find yourself in error.


Tell you what, put me to the test. Play an Abacus and Tyros behind a curtain and I'll have no difficulty sniffing out the wurst.

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#269449 - 08/18/09 08:24 AM Re: Survival or Death to the Arranger keyboard ?
leeboy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 2580
Loc: Ocala, FL USA
'As for the "arranger" not being cool, my son (13) is learning bass and guitar, and he hangs with a few other guys at HS. They ALL think the arranger I have is super cool and heaps of fun to play with.'

EXACTLY...but the problem is not many young folks have ever been really exposed to a TOTL Arranger. MFG's need to get em in the schools.

As to arrangers vs workstations..(I've had lots of both, and Organs too)in general...A gigging band member, up on stage would rarely have any interest in an arranger...why would he/she, my God they have a live drummer, several guitar bangers and sometimes other instuments. AND you rarely can even hear them play the keyboard. Live bands (todays Rock)(few exceptions) is about all that loud guitar playing , drums and vocals.

I like PRO workstations, I like arrangers too..That's why I have a Korg and sold the Yamaha. The PA2XPRO, while not perfect for sure, is a PRO level arranger to me that means I have lots of features and programmability like a PRO WS, AND an arranger section too. For those that don't understand how powerful the songbook on the PA is...wow, it's worth the change from others.

My wish in arrangers is to integrate even more PRO WS sound, features Karma etc into a PA...because I want both.

If I played in a band..just give me a M3, Motif, etc.

Yes, The USA is loosing ground on arrangers just like it did on organs. I think there is plenty of demand everywhere else.
Lots of reasons, but that's another thread.

James...so if they put a full M3 into a PA3XPRO..WOW...I want one today.

Lee S.
_________________________
Lee S.

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#269450 - 08/18/09 11:09 AM Re: Survival or Death to the Arranger keyboard ?
mr9000 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/14/05
Posts: 318
Simply put,IF the big "Y" integrated ALL keyboard functions into ONE keyboard,the Arranger would N-e-v-e-r go the do-do bird.All these crazy model # for this purpose,model # for that purpose is just stupidity from the Ty2 and on...KISS!

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#269451 - 08/18/09 12:07 PM Re: Survival or Death to the Arranger keyboard ?
Diki Online   content


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14211
Loc: NW Florida
I am not so sure about that... a lot of arranger users are befuddled by the comparatively simple OS's and voice and effects editing they already have

Shoehorn that with the complexity of something like the MoXS, and I'm not sure you wouldn't end up alienating most of the target market...

The S90/70XS new 'live' keyboards from Yamaha seem a step in the right direction, marrying most of the MoXS's power with a simplified OS, and expedited live control functions. If these are successful, perhaps some of this live ease will trickle UP to the full WS OS?
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#269452 - 08/18/09 01:22 PM Re: Survival or Death to the Arranger keyboard ?
leeboy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 2580
Loc: Ocala, FL USA
Diki,
There's room for both.
There is always the folks that just want a simple MOTL arranger that is easy, and does not have all the bells & whistles. You just turn it on and play some music. This is where Yamaha shines IMHO. Get a S900(910) and be done with it.

Then there is folks like me...I want TOTL sound, functions, MIDI impementation, VP, editing sampling, expandability etc.

Actually the Korg PA2 is pretty close (like James also said) ...but there is some work to be done. Don't get me started! :-)

Lee S.
_________________________
Lee S.

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#269453 - 08/18/09 05:51 PM Re: Survival or Death to the Arranger keyboard ?
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
Shoot.., when I really think about it some more. I don't want a merge of the two because the price would be unreal. TOTL arranger are already WAY past TOTL workstations in price. I can only imagine what they'll start charging for these units.

Truth is the makers have grown quite comfortable with their target market for arrangers. They're gonna ride it as long as they possibly can. If they don't start updating these styles (soon) for the next generation then I think TOTL arrangers sales are really going to drop.

As much as it hurts some of you here to to think about it.., (I don't mean this in any disrespect either).., but we're on a "generational change" in music. Arrangers have always catered to the mature audience and mature buyer too. Well the next generation of buyers are fast approaching.., yet the arranger makers still refuse to bring these arrangers up to date. Clearly they won't because.., well they'll lose their market. Truth is MOTL and TOTL arrangers aren't designed for the "modern music player". That's why so many go for the workstations. If the three major makers did a massive overhaul on the styles..., you'd see more interets from the younger crowd.

Arrangers could easily become "cool to own and use". The youth just needs to see them being used for their styles of music. There are just as many classic pop, r&b, and hip hop songs out there to fill a "music data base" on any arranger.., but all you really find on these arrangers today are preset arrangements designed to play music that had it's day in the 70's and earlier. Hell you can't even get good 80's cheese on an arranger keyboard anymore (I'm talking about that GOOD 80's cheese too).
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