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#269454 - 08/18/09 06:47 PM Re: Survival or Death to the Arranger keyboard ?
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
Does any one believe if arranger manufacturers took a traditional arranger and loaded it with “modern sounds” and “modern styles” you would be able to play classic pop, r&b, and hip hop songs made in the past 15 years?

The style operation of a traditional arranger is not conducive to today’s music.

If arranger manufacturers were to try to make such styles they would end up making song specific styles (which defeats the purpose of an arranger). Any thing song specific, would be best dealt with as a midi or audio file and the keyboard would have to have markers and great navigation within that file.

If you think of an arranger strictly as it relates to content (which it seems most persons on SZ do,) then yes arrangers would become none existent in the near future.
But, if you think of an arranger as a live performance and creation tool, then you would see that the arranger popularity is just beginning.
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#269455 - 08/18/09 06:57 PM Re: Survival or Death to the Arranger keyboard ?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14211
Loc: NW Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
Does any one believe if arranger manufacturers took a traditional arranger and loaded it with “modern sounds” and “modern styles” you would be able to play classic pop, r&b, and hip hop songs made in the past 15 years?


Well, no offense, but you can play some pretty serious 'old school' on the MoXS, FantomG etc.. But you CAN play some serious 'new school' on it too. That's all we want, really. BOTH worlds. Arranger manufacturers are going to miss the point if they go like Yamaha did with the little Hiphop arranger they made... Great for rap, etc, but of no use for trad stuff.

If they can balance the soundset in the MoXS (and put it out for a fraction of what a T3 costs), they ought to have no problem with a crossover arranger.
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#269456 - 08/18/09 07:00 PM Re: Survival or Death to the Arranger keyboard ?
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
Every time I see someone on this forum post a reply like this
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The style operation of a traditional arranger is not conducive to today’s music.
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All I can assume is you've never laid your hands on a Yamaha DJX. Do you have any idea how many youngsters were using the DJX to play the HITS of that time....?????? I can't tell you how many times I saw the younger crowd using a DJX to play MODERN music....

Saying the operation is not conducive IMO is just bullshit..... YES IT CAN BE DONE. The makers WONT do it becaues if they did there goes 95% of their market. How many of the typical arranger buyers out there (today) would buy one if it was choc full of modern styles..?????

Arrangers already have styles that are (close)..., and I mean FREAKIN close. The problem is that the makers won't let their kiddies all play on the same playground. It's obvious those (on the arranger style design teams) have little experience in this area. If the makers would let the kids from the Workstation design team play with the arranger kiddies.., you'd for damn sure hear some amazing UP TO DATE styles.

Again.., once they do that there goes over 90% of their market.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 08-18-2009).]
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#269457 - 08/18/09 07:58 PM Re: Survival or Death to the Arranger keyboard ?
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
Style operation of a traditional arranger is what it says. You press a chord in the left hand and the arranger has bread and butter sounds play those chords.
You see when traditional arrangers were being first made, they were made where the genres of the day had a lot of the songs with similar accompaniment. For example, take a ballad. You could play many songs where the drums, bass and piano have the same feel and each song will sound like the original. So you did not have to have song specific styles.

Now however, a lot of the music today is hip-hop influenced.

And, you could not approach playing 50 cent’s “in da club” on a traditional arranger the same way you would play “all the things you are.”


Or Beyonce’s “Single Ladies (Put A Ring On It)” I would like to see if one could approach it the same way you would autumn leaves on a traditional arranger.

Again, it is not that I think modern music can not be played on an arranger, it is just the approach would need to be different from how you would play a standard on a traditional arranger.

And, you would have to address the issue of having song specific styles.

Remember, there was a reason why Yamaha did not include DJX type styles on the T1, T2 or T3. And it is not because of the WS/arranger war with in Yamaha IMO. I think Yamaha knew that the traditional arranger and a DJX in one keyboard would be like putting oil and water in a glass.

[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 08-18-2009).]

[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 08-18-2009).]
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#269458 - 08/18/09 08:27 PM Re: Survival or Death to the Arranger keyboard ?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14211
Loc: NW Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
I think Yamaha knew that the traditional arranger and a DJX in one keyboard would be like putting oil and water in a glass.


As long as it did BOTH well, how could they lose?

Trouble is, the DJX wasn't much for trad styles, and trad arrangers aren't worth a damn for modern styles. But the MODE of operation of both were basically the same. Only the CONTENT was different. I rest my case...
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#269459 - 08/19/09 07:03 AM Re: Survival or Death to the Arranger keyboard ?
Anonymous
Unregistered


An interesting topic and a lot of good comments. Will the arranger keyboard as we know it go the way of the home organ? Eventually they probably will. Does that mean arranger instruments will be totally gone? Probably not. There is still a home organ being manufactured today, the Lowery. They sell for some crazy high prices but they do sell. I think there will always be a place for some kind of traditional arranger keyboard.

Will the line between arrangers and workstations continue to get thinner and thinner until only one all-encompassing keyboard evolves out of each instruments best features? Maybe...it is already happening with instruments like the Mediastation; it can be whatever the owner wishes provided there are applications available.

Like several others have already mentioned, the manufacturers need to find a way to market these instruments more effectively. Korg markets the Pa500 as a song writing partner. From personal experience having recently purchased a Pa588 (not for the song writing aspect mind you) I have already written several songs by randomly picking a style and recording what I played in quick-record mode. There is a lot of inspiration to be had from this instrument, or any arranger instrument. I think chances are 99% positive that if you could get a higher-end arranger into the hands of a song writer who otherwise would never consider an arranger keyboard, they would see how useful and inspiring this type of instrument can be.

As for the current arrangers not being up to the task of some of today's music, well that's just not true. It is true if you plan on just using the factory supplied styles and sounds. But if you learn how to create your own styles and edit your own sounds, most any of the mid to high end arrangers would fit the bill. So why don't the manufacturers take on the job of updating styles and sounds? Because they want to sell product. The vast majority of people who can afford a high-end arranger are not interested in the latest in hip hop. For those of you who think that the manufacturers are missing the boat here, then take advantage of their blindness and start creating the styles yourself and sell them on the internet. I don't mean that to sound sarcastic, but serious.

Lastly, regarding sound capabilities. I don't know how extensive the sound editing is on the Tyros 1-3, or the top end Roland arrangers. But I will say that the synth engine of the Pa series is every bit a high-end programmable synthesizer. I have been able to do little programming tricks that some of the workstations I have owned couldn't pull off. This thing is a killer machine!

Dave

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Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band
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#269460 - 08/19/09 03:53 PM Re: Survival or Death to the Arranger keyboard ?
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
Well said WDMcM!!

Manufacturers would probably not want to market an arranger that would work best for your traditional arranger player and the hip-hop musician. Neither of them want to be associated with each other.

With respect to “As for the current arrangers not being up to the task of some of today's music, well that's just not true. It is true if you plan on just using the factory supplied styles and sounds. But if you learn how to create your own styles and edit your own sounds, most any of the mid to high end arrangers would fit the bill.”
You’ve hit the nail on the head. Your traditional arranger players do not have the skill nor do they have the interest in creating their own styles and sounds (which is the linchpin of hip-hop and modern music).

And, there does not seem to be overwhelming evidence that there is a modern music market for arrangers. The question is not just whether traditional arranger players are interested in playing hip-hop. But it is whether Hip-hop players would use a traditional arranger.

For hip-hop and other modern music manipulation of audio is critical. Whether you agree with it or not, that is where music production is going. Why do you think almost all the hip-hop people use an MPC? The only companies that seem to be trying to bridge the gap are Ketron with the Audya, Korg with the PA2x pro and the Mediastation.

And I still say to any one, find a song in the Hip-hop or R&B style and try to play it on the T3 or G70 in arranger mode and first see if you can get it to sound authentic and two see if your approach is different from when you play days of wine and roses.
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#269461 - 08/19/09 05:57 PM Re: Survival or Death to the Arranger keyboard ?
spalding1968 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 1264
Loc: United Kingdom
This is the blind spot that we keep hitting and it gets on my nerves honestly. Who said you have to use an arranger keyboard in arranger mode at all or all the time ? I play modern music on my PA1X which is a fully fledged arranger but i dont do so in arranger mode just like a musician writing his Motif XS or Fantom G doesnt use it purely based upon Arps.

The PA Series allows you to create music in any way you like whether using Styles, purely the sequencer or sampled sounds and loops. Tell me what else does a budding hip hop artist need to write the next hit ???????????

If you understand the genre you will know that they need nothing else !!

Can this be done on a modern arranger such as the Korg PA series ? Absolutely

We need to think of the arranger keyboard as simply a keyboard. Forget the arranger element. then ask the question is it capable of being used like a workstation, it does not have to be exactly like a workstation. It just needs a workstations capabilities, if it can then whats the problem ? And most hip hop music is loop based which is basically what a style is . and you can drop in or fade out elemnts of the style as you choose just like pretty much all hiphop music does.Arrangers are easily adaptable to modern music and relies upon the same talent to make the music.

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#269462 - 08/19/09 06:21 PM Re: Survival or Death to the Arranger keyboard ?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14211
Loc: NW Florida
The DJX basically proved that, if you include the sounds and styles the kids want, they will buy 'arrangers' like they are going out of style But it also proved that, if you don't include the sounds and styles older players want, they won't buy them at all.

What annoys me the most is that, there ARE some pretty hip sounding drum kits, synth basses, etc., in my G70, I KNOW there's a ton of contemporary stuff in a PA2X (not really sure about the Tyros3, but it's got to have at least SOME up to date stuff), but NOBODY is writing styles for these arrangers. Korg have excellent style writing teams for the M3/M50, Roland have personnel for the FantomG, Yamaha for the MoXS loops. Why can't they simply get THOSE guys to do styles for the arrangers? Can't be any harder than doing arps for the WS's.

It is still CONTENT... we keep arguing about hardware, but there's no reason the majors couldn't make some pretty hip stuff for the TOTL arrangers (sell them as a 'Contemporary Beats' collection) we already have.
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#269463 - 08/19/09 10:15 PM Re: Survival or Death to the Arranger keyboard ?
124 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/01/09
Posts: 2195
It's a shame we can't get an authoratative voice from the majors on here saying just what those reasons are, Diki. Surely they must have their reasons. We paeons can guess and surmise until we're blue in the face about this. Let's get it from the horse's mouth.

Anybody out there?

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