The only time I see someone using bass pedals is in a Wersi/Hammond organ you tube video....its very rarely seen in these parts anymore.....with auto bass features so prevalent could bass pedals be a thing of the past?

Nope, they ere still one of the most popular add on for single keyboards, plus auto bass lines are so canned (And can’t anticipate the chord you are playing next) which a real bass player isn’t.
Let’s face it Roland wouldn’t make them if they didn’t sell, and they are one of the most popular that players go for.

Bill


[This message has been edited by abacus (edited 05-19-2009).]

Maybe across the seas Bill, but I think Donny's right. In the US you hardly see these things being used. The US organ market has really dropped.

I'm sure Roland sells a hell of a lot more organs outside of the US.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 05-19-2009).]

Only the die hard former organists look for bass pedals (and dual manuals)...even though the auto bass lines can't anticipate the next chord, they are far better than what most people could ever play.

Consider some of the walking bass lines in Bebop and Jazz styles, some at over 200 BPM...who but a real pro player can do them any justice.

Not everyone is a Klaus W. or a Barbara D.

I know I'm glad to be rid of them after using them for many many years.

Ian

It's very impressive though to see some of these pros who play those instruments. I watched a guy on YouTube the other day using one of Roland's top end models and he was doing music from Pirates of the Carib. Very impressive. Takes a lot of cordination to play one. I've aways thought drummers would make great organ players (if they were willing to learn)...

I've owned them all - Roland, Hammond, Fatar, Crumar... - and I agree with Ian (OMG!) that bass pedal use in the USA is sparse. I sold my last set of Crumar's only because auto-bass does a decent enough job. If I really need a dedicated bass line, then I do that on left hand with auto-accompany off. Of all the units I've had though, I feel the Roland has the best MIDI pedals available. I also liked my old Crumar self-contained analog sets, but would opt for Roland PK5 if I needed another.

To answer Donny's comment - I bought my last set of pedals to go with my Hammond XK-1, but soon set them aside.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C26ydWpJ0S0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mklshmolaAU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOMRgy3XeeM

I will go as far ...as to say...sometimes I hate "auto Bass"...I am most connected when I play left "hand" bass...

As for pedals...most "pro" pedal players use the bass pedals to accent what they are doing with their left hand....200 bpm..doesn't mean they are relying on pedals for bass...they "always" use a combination of left hand (sometimes right hand)..and bass pedals...

You guys might have talked me into picking up a set of Roland pedals..

Only problem for me...I like to stand, and I do use other pedals...sustain..a must....expression pedal..a must...and a switch pedal for harmonizer...I don't have enough feet.. ...and sitting is too boring for this young lad...

I cannot miss bass pedals.
I own a brasilian mid bass pedals , 20 years old but still dependable.
Here, a funk version of one note samba, recorded in my studio with bass pedals e live 10 fingers drums.
Kurzweil SP 76 piano, Yamaha Psr 3000, Roland E50. http://www.4shared.com/file/106399088/90c0dc06/Variation_over_one_note.html

I found the PK-5 too short for any real bass playing...I used both feet when playing Electone and Hammond, especially when doing walking bass lines.

I see Studio Logic has a 17 note unit, but not sure of the quality, and of course, Roland has the PK-7 with 20 notes.

The best I found were the 32 note AGO Hammond pedals.

Yamaha never made stand alone bass pedals, as far as know.

Fran, for the reasons you stated, I would reccomend you not purchase any bass pedals - that is unless you just want to have them around. I use the same three pedals as you and am busy enough. When I was using pedals, I had a leslie f/s pedal that I kept as near the bass pedals as possibel for use with the left foot. The others were used with the right foot.

I think it's just good to know that you can't go wrong with the midi versatility of the Roland pedals.

OK now, if we're going to talk bigger pedal units, then the Hammond 25 or AGO 32 are preferred. If find that those purists who play 32's do not like the 25's. Just the plain 8' and 16' Hammond sounds without sustain suck IMO. I thought we were talking combo/arranger with bass pedals. If we're talking B3 and the like, then by all means give me those pedals. Playing standing behind a B3 is not my idea of playing unless there's a bad-ass bass player standing next to me.


[This message has been edited by cassp (edited 05-19-2009).]

Let me expand the original question, and include the use of expression pedals...and even the sustain pedal..

I think some arranger players are getting too lazy, or maybe have forgotten how to even use the expression pedal and a sustain pedal..Yeah, I am talking to some buddies too..

It is impossible to play a realistic piano part without a sustain pedal (even if you use it wrong)..

You lose so many benefits by not setting up , even your arranger keyboard..the use of an expression pedal...Have you folks never used a color sound that you bring in with an expression pedal, over top or in place of say a piano sound with organ or brass..?

I truly believe most arranger players (that have come from pre arranger backgrounds) have lost a quality that is necessary to be on top of the playing field..

Hopefully there are a couple folks here that agree with me...if not I know I enjoy the pedals....and I wouldn't even consider a piano sound that didn't have a sustain pedal attached..

I can't imagine not using a sustain pedal...I carry a spare just in case...if I lost my sus pedal, it would be a major issue.

I use a volume pedal (Yamaha FC-7) as well...I use mine for different functions; pitch bending for one, and of course I usually set only my right hand sounds to respond to the volume pedal, so the accompaniment volume does not change.

Ian

Good question Donny. I'm sure there are still some bass-kickers around, but probably not as many as there used to be due to things likes arranger keyboards with automatic bass and death.

When I do a solo gig it is with an 88 note weighted key digital piano and a Studio Logic MP117 bass pedal unit. No auto anything; and it is a pleasure to play that way and the audience always enjoys the music. On the other hand I have started doing some senior type gigs lately and have used an arranger for a couple of gigs so far and that is fun as well. But there is something to be said for having a live piano and bass player as opposed to a synthetically produced full band.

As for the various brands of bass pedals; all they need to do is transmit on a MIDI channel and nothing more. These units that have all sorts of controls are kind of unnecessary if you are plugging them into an arranger keyboard or digital piano for the purpose of playing bass parts. The sound selection, transposition, sustain, or whatever is set-up and controlled from the keyboard, right?

Hammond makes the absolute sturdiest set of 20 note bass pedals, the XPK-200, that I have ever seen. They are built like a tank, and unfortunately weight about as much. The Roland's are also built well and are as expensive as the Hammond. Both the Roland and Hammond have fairly short pedals so any chance of heel/toe is gone. Which brings me to the Studio Logic. The MP113 and MP177 are encased in plastic instead of metal like the Hammond so they are much lighter. MUCH lighter. But unless you plan on standing on top of the case or otherwise mistreating them, that just doesn't matter. And something that is very cool is the MP117 is velocity sensitive. You may not think that is important but I have found it very nice to give a bit of an accent to an upright bass sound here and there. Also, the MP117 uses real wood for the pedal caps instead of plastic which is a nice touch and the pedals are a bit longer so you can play heel-toe if you wish.

I use bass pedals because I dread doing left-hand bass. It is so confining not to be able to comp with my left hand. This goes for when I am doing my solo piano/bass gigs and well as when I am doing an organ gig with my Hammond.

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Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band

[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 05-19-2009).] (Added comments)

[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 05-19-2009).]

Just my view. For arranger playing carrying pedals is a waste. BUT, for real playing they are great. No, the lines aren't as perfect or fancy as an arranger but that's what makes it real.
I've played pedals my whole career, many years and gigs on a modified B3.Had a custom bass unit installed just like Felix of the Rascals had. Gave you sustain on the pedals, you could switch it to the lower manuel and had a seperate 1/4" output to go into a bass amp instead of pushing the leslie too hard. It ROCKED! When in college I took a semester of classical organ to improve my chops and sometimes had to play pedals with two feet. Balancing on the bench was the hardest part.
I still have two sets of PK5's and sometimes fool around on my G1000 with a set. Yes, they are too short for true heel/toe playing but by adding sustain to the sound you can just tap them with your toe. Works fine.
Until recently I had a Blues/Jazz trio I used them with. RH on a Hammond XK3 and LH comped chords on a Roland piano while doing the bass on the pedals. After a while you don't have to think too much about your foot.
I recnetly sold a B3 to a guy in the Netherlands who heard Rhoda Scott play. I explained to do the bass the way she does (in high heels no less) you need a Trek II String Bass unit installed. He ordered that too. Money was no object!
I still have a mint 58 B3 with a Trek II bass unit installed. Hardly play it anymore. For sale if anyone is interested.
The straight jazz guys do as Fran said. LH bass lines on the lower manuel and just tap a note on the pedals for added ooomph. Sometimes just any old note and sometimes just a few to mirror the LH.
Things have changed and I miss the "old" style of playing it all.
Bill NJ

My favorite use of bass pedals was with a duo...guitar/entertainer (not much of a player) and me on a double neck Carvin bass on bottom and 6 string on top. Used a set of Crumar pedals. When I switched from bass guitar to lead, I kicked bass. really cool, although the material was so simple it wasn't much of a challenge.

Still have full pedals installed on my B-3, which "lives" at a country club I play, and on the new XK system at home, but mostly play left handed bass at the club for the "hard liner" people into Jimmy Smith, Jack McDuff, etc.

One of the best performances I ever saw was Jimmy Smith at the WNOP jazz fest in the 80's. He was backing up James Moody playing a ballad, with beautiful inverted cords and very complicatged pedal bass. Not his usual style, but very impreassive.

Love the pedals.


Russ

[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 05-19-2009).]

Ah, WNOP. Unfortunatly a thing of the past, along with the Jazz Festival. Not to be confused with the Kool Jazz Festival, which is anything but jazz.

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Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band

Yea, Dave...the Jazz Ark. What was it...1,000 watts for a long time? We could barely get it here in Lexinton, just 80 miles away. I liked the Blue Wisp big band a lot, and Cal Collins. They were mainstays at the outdoor festival. You could see the old boat when crossing the river into Cincinnati.

The outdoor arena where the event was held was actually in Indiana, I believe.


Let's get together soon. Sounds like we're within an hour or so from each other.


Russ

. .. ...

I think the reason pedals survive better in the European market is simply the music. If you listen to what most organists play (and even to the originals they came from), you won't hear much beyond simple root, fives or simple walks. American music, OTOH, from R&B onwards, has relied on MUCH more complicated basslines with syncopation, pops and pull-offs, slapping, you name it. VERY tough to nail on pedals.

You've got to be quite the virtuoso organist to pull off even a simple Cameo piece, or a modern dance track, or most Motown, etc.. Country... yes, there's a style most of us could handle the bass pedals on, but most of the rest (I played pedals for years in England) would be a SERIOUS challenge.

And, of course, when you are talking pedals with arrangers, how can you walk with the LH (supported by pedals, a la B3) and still trigger the chords? For perhaps adding a slash root to a chord input, they might be handy, but that's a lot of money to do something you can do just with an inversion change or Pianostyle chord input...

Got to admit, as much as I used to use them, I was always MORE than ecstatic every time my bandleader would hire a bass player and free up my feet and LH.

There were times when we could hardly pull in AM740 from just a few miles away. Ha ha.

Click Here for anyone interested in reading about the demise of Cincinnati's WNOP.

I'd love to come down sometime and sneak into the country club to check out your group whenever I get a weekend off.

Actually I will be playing at the Lexington Horse Park on June 13 for an annual party. But that gig is 7pm-11pm which is probably when you will be working as well.

Dave

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Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band

Actually I know of at least one instrument that can pull that off. The GEM Genesys has several keyboard modes besides 'fingered' and 'single finger'. There is Manual Bass which give you a live bass sound to the left of the split and the chordal accompaniment (minus the auto bass part) is triggered to the right of the split. Then there is the Piano Style Mode where the entire keyboard is active for chordal triggering. This one is cool because the accompaniment chord won't change until it sees at least a triad played so you can walk you left hand/bass pedals and solo with the right, When you want a chord change you can either comp with your left hand while kicking bass or interject a right hand chord. And even though you are in Piano Style mode, you can still have a split with a live bass sound on the left end of the keyboard. Another neat mode is called Pro Split that triggers the chordal accompaniment via the right hand and the automatic bass line form the left hand (slash/root as you put it). Or there is the Bass Inversion mode that will keep the bass note playing the lowest key of the chord; handy for songs like Green Dolphin Street where there is a 'pedal C' over the CMaj7 - Cm7 - D - Db chords.

I am sure other brands have similar features by now. GEM had some of these over 10 years ago.

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Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band

*Edited for spelling*

[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 05-20-2009).]

Ah, the Kentucky Horse Park. We used to spend summers camping there; good times long past. Where in the park do you play? I'm sure many things have changed since my days.

I can't remember the name of the area but you go in the main entrance and bare right, go over a bridge and you end up at the pavilion which is where we set up. It is a fun time; besides the usual riding events, they also have a donkey race for the kids. I'm not sure if this is an open to the public event but if anyone is close and interested, let me know and I'll find out.

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Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band

Dave-I'm going to email you my phone #. The Horse Park is in the area where my farm was (sold it in 2000), and across the road from Spindletop Hall, the UK Faculty/Alumni Club. I just resigned my membership, but was a member there for over 30 years (I joined the on-campus Faculty Club-closer to the office). I believe that I'll be off at 10PM, and may ride out to visit while you are breaking down. Wouldn't keep you, but it would be nice to visit for a few minutes.


Russ

Hi Russ,

I received your e-mail, thanks. Please do try to come out to the park on June 13th. We play from 7pm-11pm. If you make it in time you are more than welcome to sit in.

Dave

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Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band

Thanks, Dave. The only thing that will prevent me from being there is if the job at the other club runs long. It does ocasionally, but I don't anticipate that it will.

Hope to see you in about a month!


Russ

When I play with my 5, 7, or 16 piece big band my left foot is the bass player. I use Roland pk5s and a systems 360 bass module. If I play solo I use the arranger bass. In a trio I use both though not at the same time.

tom

I think most things can pull this off, but it still doesn't address the common arranger scenario of playing a lead line on say a sax sound, whatever in the RH. If your LH is walking and your RH is soloing, where does the arranger get the chord?

Sure, you can comp the RH while you walk, or you can play in pianostyle, but it is extraordinarily difficult to solo, walk, and comp at the same time and have the arranger track your intentions accurately. Trust me, I've tried! It's generally glitch city... It's all very well to say solo with the RH, walk with the left and only chord where you need it, but your fingering for BOTH has to be unbelievably clean, or the slightest legato in either hand adds up to three notes, and there goes your chord (to something horrible, usually!)...

Ballads, maybe... but a swing tune? Tough, VERY tough, IMO. I adore Pianostyle mode for what control it gives you for playing a solo line without retriggering the chord, but it's REALLY pushing it to do solo and walk at the same time unless it is rehearsed to the max. Me, I like my jazz a bit more on the improvised tip