76 ain't JUST for piano, Ian... It allows you room for TWO splits, it allows for a bigger chord recognition area (if you are using ON BASS chords to shape a bassline), it allows for a low E for LH bass (without the temptation to grovel on low C ), it allows for a decent sized LH area for B3 sounds without taking your UPR end smear room away from you, and it's good for Wurli's and other electric piano sounds that had lighter actions than a grand piano...

Don't confuse size with capability. It's not JUST about the piano...

I'm not confusing anything Diki...I just know what I like to play, and unweighted (or semi-weighted) keys are total crap for solo piano.

With an arranger, I get along fine with 61...if I need room for on bass chords, I raise the split point to G2 or A2...I still have lots of room ...you obviously need more keys.

I don't play LH bass on my arranger, I don't need smear room for B3, don't need two splits, so I'm happy as the proverbial clam with 61 for arranger play.

It's all about knowing your needs and using what it takes to meet them...you know yours very well, and I certainly know mine.

I would be willing to bet that there are a LOT of players that would like two splits with enough room to play, and all the other advantages that a 76 gives regardless of whether they can play piano on it or not (I've heard you play piano parts on the S900's action, so don't try to kid me that you couldn't get used to a 76 with the same feel... ).

The thing is, just as you keep telling me that I am satisfied with the G70 because I HAVE to be, without a successor to move onto, I think you also have no choice about liking the 61. You HAVE to like it, because it's all there is . IF a lightweight 76 Yamaha S900 existed, I have a sneaky feeling that your decision might be more complicated...

You MIGHT make the same decision, you might not. Hard to say without the temptation, isn't it? Just like me and the next G-series

I wouldn't buy a 76/88 note arranger, Diki, unless the 76'er had weighted keys....sadly, none do.

I don't in any way feel shortchanged...I've been using 61 note arrangers since my first PS-6100, so it's far from being a burden, and I'm really not interested in more keys.

EXCEPT...if Yamaha puts the 88 note weighted GHS action of the P-85 and S900 innards together, and keeps it around 30 lbs, then I will buy for sure...I'd even accept 76 keys if it was used to keep the weight low.

I know what I want, and like you, I'm not pressured to change.

Ian

Weighted keys would limit what you can do on an arranger AT LEAST as much as 76 semi-weighted do for piano playing. The thing is, what proportion of your playing WOULD be piano IF you had a fully weighted 88 arranger? And what proportion would be all the other sounds that benefit from lighter actions? You can't have both (without lugging two keyboards around), so logic would dictate that you use the keyboard that suits the majority of your choice in sounds, and simply get used to the other.

An 88 arranger player that played primarily piano would be at an equal disadvantage for all the sounds that benefit from the lighter touch, but would put up with it because he had the majority covered. I would LOVE a full weighted 88 for my piano and Rhodes parts, but would hate it for organ and much of what I DO use.

I believe that both of us have sufficient technique to use the wrong action for a piano sound IF it wasn't what we were primarily doing. Or use a heavy action for organ (but that would hurt!). It's all about playing the percentages if you are committed to the 'one keyboard' rig.

Just imagine, you use your regular PSR arranger for the gig, but say you get ONE request for a full piano number... with a 61, it's out of the question. With a 76, it's still doable, if not 'perfect'. Me, I'd rather have 'doable' than two 'perfect' keyboards that you ALWAYS have to set up 'just in case' (and I know you don't ALWAYS set up both )...

Well, you have your "doable" G70, so I'm glad you've got what you need.

Weighted keys do not restrict my arranger play...remember, I play/demo plenty of CVPs and as well as PSR and Tyros...plus I play piano a few hours just about every day.

The only sound that might not benefit from weighted action would be organ, and ONLY if you plan on doing smears and slides as on a waterfall keybed...even the unweighted/semi-weighted keys on MOST arranger keyboards don't work well for slides/smears because of their shape...I know you're going to say the G70's keys work well, but they are unique to that instrument.

For any other sound...guitar, sax, strings, whatever, weighted is fine, because you get used to the action, and your hands and fingers get stronger. It's no different playing fast piano licks from fast Sax licks if it always feels the same and you're used to it.

Regarding the chance I might have to play one piano tune, I plan my gigs very well...if I'm using auto accompaniment on a gig, I never get asked to do solo piano...it's not expected...I always know beforehand if I'll need my piano.

So don't knock weighted so easily...Yamaha sells a lot of CVP and I'm sure Roland does equally well with the KR-series...I'm sure their users don't use only the piano sound.

Again, it's what fits your needs and/or preferences..

I see your point, but it still doesn't address the weight issue. KR's and Clavinova's don't get lugged around from gig to gig much.

And, without a change in feel of the 88's keys to virtually unweighted, so will most 88 arrangers. The P85 (I've played one) to me still feels a BIT lighter than say a Clavinova or RD700G, and I agree, other than organ, I could probably make it work (I play enough real piano at work and home that my technique hasn't atrophied ), but I doubt anyone could add it to an arranger and stay in your weight range.

Let's face it, the P85 is what? about 25 lbs., and that is with a case that is barely more than a shell for the action. Little in the way of buttons, displays, etc.. and I imagine not much innards. You are only allowing a five lb. difference between the P85 and the S900... Best of luck on that one! I'd guess Yamaha would be VERY hard pressed to keep the weight under 35 lbs. without ditching the speaker system...

Still, 35-40 lbs. is actually the weight of MOST TOTL arrangers, and well under some ( ), so I don't think there would be a sales penalty... You want that 30 lbs. S900 88, I think you would have to have one of the no-touch 88 DGX actions, and there goes your entire reason for the beast!

This is why I still think the NP30/S900 would be Yamaha's best bet to enter this market segment (and bury the opposition). Cheap, light, big enough for most non-pros to get by on piano (few amateurs use the extremes of range, anyway) and no threat to the Clavinovas... or the DGX's

Diki,

No one really thought they could make a 25 lb 88 note weighted action piano (with speakers, no less) several years ago, so making a 30-35 lb arranger with the same action isn't much of a stretch...they could always take out the speakers.

Seriously, I really doubt the MOTL PSR will go 76....why should they, when the TOTL model Tyros3 is 61 notes?

Doesn't make sense at all.

And neither would 88 weighted in a PSR if the TOTL Tyros3 is 61.

They (Yamaha) obviously feel they don't need to tap that market yet, so about the only thing that will change might be the DGX in the way I described above.

BTW, the action in the P-85 is the same as the DGX..both are GHS...both feel exactly the same...it's also the same action that's in their new KX8 controller.

I really love the touch a lot...a teensy bit lighter than the CP-300 (which I liked as well) I had here, but still very much like a nicely regulated acoustic.

Ian

Which DGX? All the ones I played were basically unweighted (or close) and completely un-pianolike (and worse than most synths )

You have to remember, the world isn't JUST Yamaha. Roland's TOTL is 61, too. But they have (or had, or will have ) a 76 below it. Korg's PA2Xpro and PA800 are almost functionally identical (although at least they don't rip you off by having the 61 the most expensive!).

But just because Yamaha don't do something doesn't mean it can't be done!

This is getting exhausting, BTW...

Would you mind if we just chatted on the one thread? Say your friend's 588 thread? OK?

It's basically the same topic.