Unfortunately, Ian, there are NO lightweight alternatives to the G70. At least not without more compromise to the sound and touch than I am prepared to make. I haven't found ONE 'excellent' alternative!

Let's face it... if the S900 had the T3's action, at no weight penalty, you would be happier than a sandboy. But they don't. So you are prepared to compromise the feel of the keyboard, to save weight. I am not.

I happen to feel that, if you want ONE keyboard to cover it all, rather than an 88, a 61, and an organ 61, a semi-weighted 76 is by far the better choice. If I get to a gig, and find they need straight ahead piano, I am still covered. If I find they need B3, I am covered. Rhodes... covered. Etc., etc..

But take a 61 and find they need piano, out of luck. Take an 88 and find they want organ... out of luck. I still do a lot of pickup gigs, where you don't know for sure what is needed until you get there. The semi-weighted 76 is the perfect 'compromise'. And that's about the only compromise I am prepared to make. If it comes in at 45 lbs., well, that's better than lugging the 88, the 61 and the organ 61, just in case...

I am afraid we'll never see eye to eye on this one, Ian. Could I play an S900? Sure I can play anything... But would I be happy about it? Hell NO! The day that a bad back FORCES me to use lighter gear, sure, I'll use it. But don't imagine for one MINUTE that I'll try to self justify it! I will miss that G70 action until the day I croak...

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 04-30-2009).]

I feel terrible that there is no lighter alternative for you to play Diki, and I feel very lucky that the incredibly efficient S900 is perfect for my needs.

It's certainly much better for my needs than the 65 lb (in the road case)arranger that you have to lug around to meet your needs.

As far as the Tyros action...no thanks; I like the S900's for arranger play much better...if I wanted a T3 I'd be using one right now...it's hardly heavier than the S900, and I can buy one under cost....it's not price, or weight...it's just preference.

My experience playing the G70 as a solo piano was less than satisfying....the semi-weighted action feels absolutely nothing like a piano; no better than the S900 in that respect, so having the extra keyboard length is really nothing but a waste in my opinion....and, let's face it, buying a G-70 for easy moving is like someone downloading porn to savor the cinematography.

My P85 is far more satisfying to play....feels just like a real piano, and at 25 lbs, it is a doddle to carry around.

When Yamaha asked for my thoughts on a larger than 61 note arranger, I suggested that it have 88 weighted action keys and be under 30 lbs.

Until they do, I can get by quite nicely with two lightweight instruments, that actually weigh less together (in their cases, no less) than your big old G70 in it's road case.

Whatever reasons you and others seem to think Yamaha have for not making a 76 note arranger are all just assumptions...unless you were present at the board meetings at Yamaha Japan.

The only current, readily accessible, and completely finished TOTL 76 note arranger would be the Korg PA2xPro...the G70 is history, as is the E-60, so it seems Roland has wisely followed Yamaha's path, at least for the time being.

It could be possible that Yamaha will make a portable (under 30 lb) DGX/PSR hybrid with 88 weighted keys and the innards of the TOTL PSR S-series...far more appealing to piano players like me, and better than wasting their time making a 76 note semi-weighted arranger for a very tiny segment of the market.

I have been asked many times at my clinics and through email, about why Yamaha doesn't make a portable 88 key CVP, but I have rarely, if ever, been asked about a 76 note Tyros.

The 76 note debate can go on forever, and probably easily pass Fran's 500 post, cheap and dirty, speaker thread, but it will end the same way as any other thread did on this subject...lots of rhetoric, especially from those who would never buy a Yamaha arranger no matter how many keys it had, and lots of guesses why a 76 is not being made, but ultimately we will be no further ahead than when it started, simply because no one actually knows Yamaha's reasoning behind their, obviously firm, decision.

We both know Kingfog launched this thread because of lack of activity on SZ...what better subject to be bantered around for days and not achieve anything but fill up forum space with guesses, rants and little else?

Sort of reminds you of the Audya and Mediastation threads, doesn't it?

Bottom line is, we both have to live with a bit of a compromise until we get what we want...I just happen to like mine much better.

BTW, did you manage to get a back-up G70, or did your need for it go away?

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-30-2009).]

Really?? How about the Casio Privia PX-320? It is 88 note, fully weighted, under 30 lbs., 128 note polyphony, and it is a "semi" arranger too! Of course its main purpose is as a Digital Piano though. And surprisingly, the piano sound(s) actually sound pretty good. And amazingly, the key bed action is really very delightful. Read the review at Keyboard Mag to get the lowdown from the experts.

PS: I owned the PX-320 a while back to use as a Controller. I eventually returned it though because of its lack of Mod Wheels and/or a Mod Stick. I am certain that Casio will eventually make the next model (or the model after) with subsequent Mod Wheels or Mod Stick. I am waiting for that day and I will most likely seriously consider getting the new model when it comes out. If nothing else than for a truly portable, excellent action, fully weighted 88 key "semi" arranger keyboard which will mainly be used for controller purposes. OTOH, if Casio ever comes through with "totl" acoustic sounds in other sound categories i.e. Brass, Strings, Organ, Guitar, yada, yada, yada, and also a plethora of nice synth sounds, then that will even be more reason to get one and then be able to use it for everyday purposes like gigging, without the need to hook it up to a PRO sound module, etc. It's amazing how far Casio has come in just a few short years and I, for one, am truly expecting more great things from them in the future. And their prices are really undercutting the competition in a BIG way I might add.

All the best,
Mike

PS: The bees knees would be if Casio would make something similar from the WK series, which is their "fully" arranger keyboard line. They have the WK-8000 now which is 88 key but it's not a weighted key bed by any means.

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 04-30-2009).]

Mike,

My feeling that Yamaha will come up with a lightweight 88 note, piano actioned arranger along the lines of the DGX (and hopefully with the S900's innards) is based on the Casio Previa 320's success.

I have had an overwhelming amount of requests for Yamaha to make such an instrument.

I know I'd buy one in a heartbeat, as would a lot of people who are piano players first, and arranger players second.

I doubt if it will impeach upon the CVP line, because it will be portable.

That's the beauty of competition...it makes for improvements.

Ian

I agree with your sentiments Ian. Yamaha sees what's going on around them from the likes of Casio and they (Yamaha) are smart, and will do what they can to provide similar products that they see the competition succeeding with.

It's interesting also that George says there will be 76 key fully weighted offerings in the near future from Yamaha as well. Which tells once again, that when Yamaha sees the competition i.e. Kurzweil with the (PC3) and Clavia with the (Nord Stage 76 key) etc., catching the eye of musicians worldwide, that Yamaha wants in on the action too. Which hopefully will also make them reconsider their previous abandonment of the 76 key totl arranger market as well. If Yamaha indeed does make a 76 key T4/5 etc., I don't think they would necessarily give it a "fully" weighted key bed though. Which is okay with me. The T3's key bed is nice enough, as is, in my opinion - i.e. as semi- weighted, and if Yamaha made it "fully" weighted I think it might scare some people off from getting one e.g. = DonM, etc. I'm still holding out hope that Yamaha will indeed reconsider and offer a 76 key totl arranger somewhere down the line; whether by way of a T4/T5/T6 or whenever. The sooner the better of course.

All the best,
Mike

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 04-30-2009).]

Mike.., Casio DOES make an 88 graded action WK model. It's called the PX575R
http://www.zzounds.com/item--CASPX575R

This model doesn't have the mod wheel, but DOES at least have the pitchbend wheel. Sadly Casio jumped on the wagon and appear to have removed the standard midi jacks and only include USB midi.




[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 04-30-2009).]

Hard to say about a 76 Tyros, Mike...as I said earlier, I have rarely had anyone on my Tyros clinics/demos ask if there was a 76 note version, and there seemed to be little or no interest in a larger keybed.

Conversely, when I've done CVP clinics and demos, a statement I hear a lot would be, "Gee, this would be great if it were more portable"...or..."It would sure be nice to be able to take this instead of my digital stage piano."

Most people want a weighted piano action, because most want their arranger to double as a piano, without compromising the action by going to semi-weighted keys.

Regarding DGX pianos, the inevitable wish is for more high end PSR-like functions and features like more fingering modes i.e. On Bass, AI Fingered etc, plus the four variations per style...as it is, the DGX's accompaniment seems to be based on the lower end PSR.

I'm not counting out a 76 note Tyros...Yamaha could very well surprise everyone by making such an instrument, but at this point, no one knows what they are thinking.

I'm just going on my customer, and potential customer, reactions over the past few years for my guesses, and that's basically all they are...guesses; but they do have some basis in reality.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-30-2009).]

It's not the weight of the keys, Ian, but the number of them that makes me lug the G70 around. With my 'one keyboard only' approach, when I am called to play piano parts (remember, I do at least as much full band work as I do solo or duo), organ parts, Rhodes piano parts, basically anything. I find it impossible to play piano parts on a 61 because, unlike arranger only gigs, I need the full range, or at least, more than 61.

The fact that you didn't find the G70's best piano sound while you had it may have clouded your opinion of the whole thing. No, the semi-weighted action does not feel like a piano. If it did, you wouldn't be able to play organ on it. But it feels infinitely superior to the S900's action, which even Yamaha themselves, in all their unarguable wisdom do not feel worthy of a TOTL arranger. Let's be honest here, Ian. If Yamaha put the PSR keybed into the T3, you would hear the howls of protest all the way up in the Arctic Circle (you live up there, don't you? ). You are in a minority opinion there, old chum.

Not that that has ever mattered to you. Except, of course, when you are mentioning sales figures. So what is it? Does the majority opinion matter or not...?

I am sure Yamaha would save a fortune using the S900 action on it's TOTL arrangers (and WS's, for that matter). Would you like to assure me that sales wouldn't go down if they actually went ahead and did it?

Didn't think so...

In the meantime, rumor control here... While the G70 is discontinued, the rest of the line is still in production. It is only North America that fails to support them any more, I guess due to RolandUS's disinterest in them. Mind you, given how Roland Europe still voices and styles them with a definite bias towards European styles, it may be unsurprising. We old farts are but a tiny fraction of the keyboard market. For arrangers in general to become as popular over here as they are in Europe, they might have to bring out an arranger specifically for our market. You know, like they do for Latin and Asian markets.

While they are still primarily used as toys for tots or OMB tools for NH and OMB gigs (and often the same keybed for both uses!) because of the styling priorities, arrangers will continue to become marginalized in the US. Only when they start to sound as contemporary as they WS siblings will we see a resurgence over here. Let's be honest. Arranger sales are a tiny, tiny fraction of WS sales. At least, anything $1000+ and capable of pro usage. Every store in the country has maybe three or four WS models on it's shelves, probably as many as a dozen. And most of them don't have ONE $1000+ arranger.

You can't argue with figures like that. Most of us have to drive half a continent to be able to play ALL the different arranger models for comparison. Most small TOWNS have all the different WS's for tryout. We are tiny, tiny fish, in a huge pond.

And NONE of the other , bigger fish on our pond use shitty toy keybeds on their other products in the $1000+ range. Including Yamaha. I guess Yamaha are wrong, and you are right.

Welcome to the club!

Well Diki, to me playing piano is more than just the number of keys, it's the touch that matters to me...I'm very fussy about my piano action, you're not.

That's why the G70 fails miserably at solo piano in spite of having 76 notes.

I think that's part of the reason why I couldn't warm up to it's piano sound.

Add that to the porcine weight, and it's a totally useless piece of kit for my needs.

Of course, as they say, your mileage may vary.

In regards to arranger sales, it is hard to believe they sell so poorly in the USA...we do pretty good with them here in Canada; of course we promote and demo them and offer after the sale clinics...that may be the difference.

Ian


[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-30-2009).]

I don't recall saying the PSR keybed should be put in the T3?

What I would like to see is the P-85's keyboard in a T3, or a T3 somehow crammed into a P-85.

Either one would be fine for me and many more piano players who want/need a portable arranger.

Now, if you'll pardon me, I have to go out and feed the sled dogs.

Ian

Actually we get -30C in winter and +30C in summer...nothing boring about our climate.